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Check out the big brain on Willias!
bullshit
Deny it all you wish.
Just because you see some people do amazing stuff with Destruction classes over Order, doesn't mean they're better off balance-wise. Player competence is still a pretty decent part of how well you do. Skaw fucked around with this message on 10-08-2008 at 03:45 PM.
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Skaw had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Deny it all you wish.
I'm sorry, but saying all Order classes are better is indeed bullshit.
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Nina said this about your mom:
I'm sorry, but saying all Order classes are better is indeed bullshit.
Oh, I'm sorry. All but Witch Hunter are better than destruction classes. Happy? Talk about nitpicking, fuck.
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Nina had this to say about Tron:
I'm sorry, but saying all Order classes are better is indeed bullshit.
Alright, that's fair. Let's go class by class.
Empire - Dark Elves
Bright Wizard vs. Sorceress: Bright Wizard puts out much more DPS than a Sorceress due to the Sorceress' ability to bring some utility...utility in a DPS machine?
Warrior Priest vs. Disciple of Kaine...this is a tough one, but I think we might award it to DoK based on the Covenants being slightly stronger than Prayers, as well as Dual Wielding being pretty nifty.
Witch Elf vs. Witch Hunter: No contest. Witch Hunters don't get their healing debuff until much later.
Orcs vs. High Elves
Black Orc vs. Swordmaster: This one might be a bit tough, but the award might go to Black Orcs since "da Toughest" is a great ability.
Squig Herder vs. Shadow Warrior: Shadow Warrior wins completely. The Squig Herder faces a huge decrease in DPS based purely on the fact that he has a gimmicky pet.
Shaman vs. Archmage: Tough, since they're pretty identical. All in all, I'd award it to the Archmage, since his tanks are generally more durable and a healer is as good as his tanks, and the Archmage tends to have more debuffs available to him.
Dwarfs vs. Chaos
Rune Priest vs. Zealot: Tough call, as the Shaman v. Archmage, but due to the superiority of tanks on that side, it'll have to go to the Rune Priest. It's worth noting that more Order healers have defensive-based buffs, giving them a general edge over Destruction's offensive-based spells (since a healer can turn anyone into a tank).
Chosen vs. Ironbreaker: No question. The Ironbreaker has no mirror and does the highest damage output of any tank without sacrificing defense.
White Lion vs. Marauder: In general, a White Lion is more resilient thanks to his ability to improve his abilities to a greater degree than a Marauder can. The Lion itself is a pretty good pet, unlike the Squig.
Magus vs. Engineer: No question. The Engineer's abilities, in general, do much more damage than a Magus'. Skaw can go more in-depth on this.
Final Tally
Wide-Margins in favor of Order: Four (Bright Wizards, Shadow Warriors, Engineers, Ironbreakers).
Wide-Margins in favor of Destruction: One (Witch Elves).
Close-Calls in favor of Order: Three (Archmages, Rune Priests, White Lions).
Close-Calls in favor of Destruction: Two (Black Orc, DoK).
Skaw fucked around with this message on 10-08-2008 at 05:46 PM.
Magus, Squig Herders are gimped. Yes. That doesn't make Shadow Warriors or Engineers overpowered, they're rather lame when you pit them against Sorcs/Bright Wizards.
Topping damage charts isn't everything. Ironbreakers are ridiculous at low levels, but in Tier 3 I haven't seen many of them coming even close to the top of damage charts. I can do it as a swordmaster, if I go hog wild with my AEs, but then any Destruction healer worth two shits can easily match those crappy AEs without breaking a sweat. Sure, I'll be on top of the damage chart, but I probably will have zero kill blows unless I get lucky and hit someone that was already being killed by someone else.
I'm torn on Bright Wizards vs Sorceresses. On both my T3 swordmaster and my T2 zealot, they tear me apart if there's more than one. Individually, BWs top the damage charts more, but, again, that's rather pointless.
Quite frankly, the only class I'd say needs to be nerfed hard is the BW. Even then I'd say the problem with BWs is largely the sheer number of them; its common to see 4 BWs in a scenario and I've seen as many as 8. I've never seen any other class, even in T1/T2, consistently have that many players. The large number of them combined with them being a bit overpowered throws off balance a lot and generally makes the other classes look worse than they really are. I'm hoping they get hit hard with the nerf bat not to have them nerfed, but to decrease the number of BWs. It'll be a modern day left axe nerf.
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Skaw was listening to Cher while typing:
Just a note, either way, Magi and Engineer need healing debuffs bad. Neither do enough direct damage to overcome any amount of healing being done.
I disagree with this. If an engineer is targetting one person and a healer is concentrating on the same person the healer should be able to keep that person alive, with maybe the exception of heavy burst damage from a WH/WE. Talonus fucked around with this message on 10-08-2008 at 06:12 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Skaw had this to say about pies:
Just a note, either way, Magi and Engineer need healing debuffs bad. Neither do enough direct damage to overcome any amount of healing being done.
You think you have it bad? Try fighting any healer as a tank. 
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We were all impressed when Damnati wrote:
So, what exactly are the benefits of Chosen over the Black Orc?
Their auras make them slightly less useless and ignorable? Nina fucked around with this message on 10-08-2008 at 06:19 PM.
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Damnati wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
So, what exactly are the benefits of Chosen over the Black Orc? I haven't taken either class very far but I like what I've seen of Chosen abilities and masteries both from experience and theoretically from looking over them on WARDB. Black Orc's flavor and mechanics interest me a bit more than Chosen but that's about all I know about them.
The Gud Plan/Best Plan mechanic gets really old after awhile.
They also have a +.5sec build time aura and a 25% healing reduction aura
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Nina got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
And Parcelan is right, the stances get annoying after a while. All classes get a snare usable at any moment, yet Black Orcs/Swordmasters's need to be done from their 2nd stance, giving anyone a precious 2-3 secs to sprint away.
1.4 seconds
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This insanity brought to you by Addy:
DoK is good, but it's not just because of that. 100% is definitely powerful, but keep in mind it's based on crit, which = RNG. The DPS tactics are definitely better, though. :/ Wouldn't mind willpower helping DOKs a little more!
Well, I didn't mean to infer that Curse of Khaine was the only reason the class is good, but it's still pretty freakin' sweet. Runepriests get the same thing Order side, but we're not exactly built to do damage like a DoK is.
Even if it's only on crits, you're going to be doing melee damage at some point in a fight. During those times, more than likely you're going to see a crit or two. During those times, whoever you just critted is fucked.
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Alright, that's fair. Let's go class by class.
k
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Empire - Dark Elves
Bright Wizard vs. Sorceress: Bright Wizard puts out much more DPS than a Sorceress due to the Sorceress' ability to bring some utility...utility in a DPS machine?
Simply put, due to having more instant casts, having a resist debuff, and having more powerful mastery abilities, Bright Wizards are the tougher class, and are probably the only actual overpowered class in the game. Maybe they'd even out at higher levels with increased resists, but since they have a resist debuff, I don't see that happening.
Tactics-wise, Sorcs get some really cool stuff, but Bright Wizards get more that actually bump up their own damage. Sorcs aren't bad by any means, but Bright Wizards are just all around nastier. I can agree that they're too powerful compared to their Destruction counterpart.
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Warrior Priest vs. Disciple of Kaine...this is a tough one, but I think we might award it to DoK based on the Covenants being slightly stronger than Prayers, as well as Dual Wielding being pretty nifty.
Actually, DoKs also get better tactics and better baseline debuffs.
Warrior Priests have a very slight advantage in healing, and they have to spec for it.
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Witch Elf vs. Witch Hunter: No contest. Witch Hunters don't get their healing debuff until much later.
It's more than the healing debuff. Witch Elves don't have to worry about Ballistic at all, have better tactics, and Kisses are just superior all around to Executions all around.
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Orcs vs. High Elves
Black Orc vs. Swordmaster: This one might be a bit tough, but the award might go to Black Orcs since "da Toughest" is a great ability.
1. Some of the Swordmaster abilities don't function properly at the moment (example: Gryphon's Lash which is supposed to be undefendable, but can still be blocked and parried anyway).
2. Black Orcs are the only tank class that get TWO defensive stat tactics. 1 for Toughness, like all tanks get, but another for Wounds, which gives a whopping 1600 HP at level 40. No other tank can get as much health as a Black Orc.
3. While the two classes share the same special system (Balance/Plans), the two classes really play nothing alike, which makes comparing them hard. Swordmaster focuses more on Spirit-based AoE attacks, while Orcs are more run in and clobber with mitigation buffs for doing so. I guess what I'm trying to say here is: Out of all the classes in the game, the tank classes are the most unique. While two tank classes may share a combat system, no tank has very similar abilities over all.
It's like trying to compare White Lions and Marauders. They're not parallels like Witch Elves and Witch Hunters or Squig Herders and Shadow Warriors are.
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Squig Herder vs. Shadow Warrior: Shadow Warrior wins completely. The Squig Herder faces a huge decrease in DPS based purely on the fact that he has a gimmicky pet.
Both classes need to be buffed. Vengeance for Shadow Warriors needs to be usable more often. Battle armor for Squig Herders needs to be as beneficial as Vengeance. Overall Squig Herder damage needs to be increased, and squigs need to be powerful enough to make up for the ability damage loss they cause and need to be tougher since they're going to be sent into groups of Order players, likely by themselves.
Shadow Warriors have an advantage now, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mythic didn't buff Herders up.
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Shaman vs. Archmage: Tough, since they're pretty identical. All in all, I'd award it to the Archmage, since his tanks are generally more durable and a healer is as good as his tanks, and the Archmage tends to have more debuffs available to him.
what
Overall, their abilities are really freakin' close. There's upsides to playing a Shaman, there's upsides to playing an Archmage. From an Order point of view, I hate fighting shamans more than zealots.
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Dwarfs vs. Chaos
Rune Priest vs. Zealot: Tough call, as the Shaman v. Archmage, but due to the superiority of tanks on that side, it'll have to go to the Rune Priest. It's worth noting that more Order healers have defensive-based buffs, giving them a general edge over Destruction's offensive-based spells (since a healer can turn anyone into a tank).
what?
Zealots' and Rune Priests' baselines are the exact same, with the exception of Rune Priests being a little tougher (no idea why) and Zealots having Harbinger of Doom.
Rune priests and Zealots are pretty much on equal footing. I'm not even sure why people on Warhammer Alliance whine about Rune Priests being OP when Zealots have exact mirrors of the overwhelming majority of abilities.
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Chosen vs. Ironbreaker: No question. The Ironbreaker has no mirror and does the highest damage output of any tank without sacrificing defense.
this is like comparing scrabble to candyland.
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White Lion vs. Marauder: In general, a White Lion is more resilient thanks to his ability to improve his abilities to a greater degree than a Marauder can. The Lion itself is a pretty good pet, unlike the Squig.
The two classes are supposed to be compared to one another, but they're very different. From experience, Marauders do a lot more damage than White Lions though.
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Magus vs. Engineer: No question. The Engineer's abilities, in general, do much more damage than a Magus'. Skaw can go more in-depth on this.
Not only that, but Engys share synergy with Bright Wizards. Magi don't get that benefit. I think that's more a problem with the Magus class and the Bright Wizard class though. Bright Wizards shouldn't be able to debuff Corporeal damage themselves, and Magi should get a stronger resistance debuff that does more than lowers spirit resist (which isn't the bulk of Sorc damage).
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I'm New had this to say about Punky Brewster:
archmage beats the shit out of a shaman. Four points in the archmage healing tree is equal to a full spec for the shaman. A tactic that gives +35% healing to everyone but yourself. Their debuff tree is extremely better as well.
The +35% healing is fantastic in PvE. Not being able to heal yourself as well in PvP is bad, mostly due to arch mages being a lot weaker defense-wise than Rune Priests. I like Magical Infusion more, even though it's not a tactic and is an ability.
For the healing line, I wouldn't say Shamans have it bad, considering "Lookit What I Did!" and "Do Sumfin Useful". For debuffs, they're not bad for the shaman to begin with, and for whatever reason, the good debuff tactics are hiding in the DPS tree. Willias fucked around with this message on 10-08-2008 at 08:10 PM.
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There was much rejoicing when Willias said this:
Not only that, but Engys share synergy with Bright Wizards. Magi don't get that benefit. I think that's more a problem with the Magus class and the Bright Wizard class though. Bright Wizards shouldn't be able to debuff Corporeal damage themselves, and Magi should get a stronger resistance debuff that does more than lowers spirit resist (which isn't the bulk of Sorc damage).
Spirit damage makes up the bulk of Magi and Horror abilities though.
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Talonus's fortune cookie read:
I disagree with this. If an engineer is targetting one person and a healer is concentrating on the same person the healer should be able to keep that person alive, with maybe the exception of heavy burst damage from a WH/WE.
Then the damage of my DoTs needs to be increased significantly. The only one I have that does any worthwhile impact is Indigo Fire, and I pay for it out the ass in AP. Skaw fucked around with this message on 10-08-2008 at 09:25 PM.
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So quoth I'm New:
1.4 seconds
Let me introduce you to this strange and foreign concept called "latency". 
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Skaw had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Then the damage of my DoTs needs to be increased significantly. The only one I have that does any worthwhile impact is Indigo Fire, and I pay for it out the ass in AP.
They may need an increase, but the DoTs shouldn't out pace a healer. Don't forget that DoTs also enjoy a nice bonus in that they have to be dispelled and a healer can only dispel one person every five seconds.
The only correction I can say to Green is that those pics. of abilities are not taken at the same levels. I am 26 and my broadhead doesnt do that much damage, just and FYI.
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ACES! Another post by OrangeBrand:
I can not disagree with anything you all have said so far.The only correction I can say to Green is that those pics. of abilities are not taken at the same levels. I am 26 and my broadhead doesnt do that much damage, just and FYI.
Every one of his links points to level 40 versions of the skills.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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OrangeBrand enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
I can not disagree with anything you all have said so far.The only correction I can say to Green is that those pics. of abilities are not taken at the same levels. I am 26 and my broadhead doesnt do that much damage, just and FYI.
You might have accidentally moused over one of the various levels.
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This one time, at Mr. Parcelan camp:
One of the worst parts about being a tank is that detaunts, snares, roots and the fact that Juggernaut only breaks roots and doesn't make you immune to them just seems like rubbing it in. It's not like you can do shit acting free, anyway.
Yeah, your best source of damage is Throw Choppa, and you don't need to be free to chuck it at a bright wizard running away. 
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This one time, at Talonus camp:
They may need an increase, but the DoTs shouldn't out pace a healer. Don't forget that DoTs also enjoy a nice bonus in that they have to be dispelled and a healer can only dispel one person every five seconds.
The problem is that I can't make any progress against a healers life bar whatsoever, while they can simultaneously take away mine. Indigo Fire of Change takes a huge chunk, but it's also on a pretty long cooldown and saps my AP like a TF2 Spy. SPY SAPPIN MAH AP.
Also people rarely respond to tells, but that might just be because the default chat box is spammy and there's no "new tell received" notification tone.
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Nobody really understood why Addy wrote:
I think one of my biggest problems with this game is that people are friggin antisocial. It's all cool till you get to RVR, then it's really hard to coordinate.
This seems to be the case in general on Bechafen Destruction. General chat is all but non-existent. I've found all of...two PQ groups thus far on my DoK who is level 15. Asking if anyone is up for it results in nothing, even if I can see five other people clearly working on the PQ around me. In Inevitable City, the NPCs talk more than the players. Damnati fucked around with this message on 10-09-2008 at 12:15 AM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
But WoW was pretty silent in its early days, however. There's this strange phenomenon of no one wanting to call attention to themselves in the early days of a game.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
As for the gold seller tells, I've modified SpamMeNot to automatically reply to them with random messages calling them niggers and failures of life. I know they're just bots, but it makes me feel sort of vindicated every time I see a wall of "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" appear in my "Important shit" chat window out of nowhere. Nina fucked around with this message on 10-09-2008 at 12:32 AM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Damnati had this to say about Cuba:
Why not just hit O and check the boxes in the options menu to make yourself anonymous and private?
Because then no one can find you? If you haven't noticed, being Hidden wreaks havoc with your ability to even receive tells, get added on friends lists, or get invited.
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Nina had this to say about Captain Planet:
Because then no one can find you? If you haven't noticed, being Hidden wreaks havoc with your ability to even receive tells, get added on friends lists, or get invited.
Haven't had any problems in the last week or so. Of course, that would require there actually be anyone around not running in full autistic mode...
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Nina said:
Doesn't help that the general chat channels are so balkanised you end up talking to a 100 square yard area.
Chat channels should be warfront tier wide. Ekrund and Mount Bloodhorn should be considered the same zone, for example.
