As Tarq said, it ruins the feel if you're able to destroy the king of hell and turn around and have these guards who have done nothing but walk around and fight off wolves from time to time be able to wipe the floor with you. 10 to 15 levels above you is huge. It ruins the immersion, and it ruins the sense that you've accomplished something.
quote:
Nobody really understood why Ragabash wrote:
Mostly it destroys the immersion for me, basically like tarquinn said. You claim there's no challenge, like getting to level 20 is a cakewalk. Well, for myself, it usually is a challenge, even when it isn't scaled. Take a look at MMORPG's, they're designed around making zones challenging at levels. Sure, when you're the highest level, the starting zones are cake. But that's why you don't go there anymore. And, again speaking for myself, it makes me feel like I really am some sort of hero (or villain) to be able to go to those easy places and be a giant among mice. It feels like a sense of accomplishment. But most of the time you'll spend at the zones that are created to be challenging for your level.As Tarq said, it ruins the feel if you're able to destroy the king of hell and turn around and have these guards who have done nothing but walk around and fight off wolves from time to time be able to wipe the floor with you. 10 to 15 levels above you is huge. It ruins the immersion, and it ruins the sense that you've accomplished something.
It's not an online game. There will be a point where there is nothing else to do. Still having stuff left to do scattered through out the entire game world is cool, but if it's in newbie areas and has tons of weak creatures inside, then there's no point in going to check it out if you've completed the main quest.
It's not an MMO, there isn't some huge uber raid mob to take down. The game is designed in part to make it to where the developers don't have to sit down by hand and create every single encounter in this enormous game (the overworld is 1.5x larger than Morrowind, though there are less dungeons and slightly less npcs), and to make the game stay interesting and keep the player actually trying to fight to kill things at all times.
If you created a game like this like an MMO, eventually you would get to a spot where you'd have one area (though it'd be large) with stuff that is a challenge, whereas everything else in the game might as well bow down to your character and await doom. That makes the game boring, imo.
Having the game like this might destroy some of the immersion factor, but at least it keeps the game interesting for the long term, and in my opinion, that's more important.
It becomes somewhat neccessary to allow monsters to scale with your level when one of the main points of the game is exploring and finding stuff. If stuff doesn't scale, again, and you miss stuff early on in the game, and then go back once you're 20, there's usually very little point in exploring early areas unless you're doing so specificly for exploration. The monsters won't increase your skills much, and the loot won't be worth picking up.
Another thing to note is that randomly generated equipment drops off of monsters and chests also scales with your character level. This makes it to where exploring dungeons you may have missed early on in the game is still beneficial for a high level character. Willias fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 05:12 PM.
quote:
x--WilliasO-('-'Q) :
It becomes somewhat neccessary to allow monsters to scale with your level when one of the main points of the game is exploring and finding stuff.
No, it really doesn't. Scaling is never necessary, it's ridiculously unrealistic, and it destroys immersion.
There's NO reason for easy stuff to magically get harder along with you. It totally eliminates any reason for leveling since, no matter how many new abilities you get, the things you fight will ALWAYS BE JUST AS HARD.
You might as well go kill the end boss at level 1 because it'll be just as challenging as if you were level 100 or level 1000. There's simply no reason to have leveling if you're going to have scaling.
quote:
Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Willias who doth quote:
Not quite. You're still getting a wider variety of abilities that you wouldn't have at a lower level...
So leveling should amount to nothing more than having more buttons to push in order to achieve the same result?
quote:
...and you're going to be more powerful in the fact that your skills will allow you to cast magic more easily, deal more damage, you'll be able to manuver more easily, etc. You'll also have either customized enchanted equipment or stuff that you've quested for that allow you to simply do more in combat.
But if your enemies are just getting stronger and stronger in accordance with your level none of that counts for anything because fights will STILL BE JUST AS HARD.
The way it's SUPPOSED to work is that you master the challenges presented by the enemies of a given region, then as you level you go explore to find more powerful enemies. The higher level you get, the farther from civilization you have to go to find powerful enemies. Scaling just removes the need to explore and makes leveling pointless. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 05:55 PM.
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
quote:
Fazum'Zen Fastfist spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Yeah, I also don't like scaling for similar reasons to Maradon and Willias, but it might make it interesting if individual NPCs were picked out to be progressing characters. It would be sort of like how Fable was going to have rival heroes, but it didn't.
But it had wisper, who was easy as hell to kill!
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
quote:
Maradon! wrote this stupid crap:
The way I'd like it to work is...
I'm sure that's what you meant. Inferno-Spirit fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 07:32 PM.
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Maradon! said:
But if your enemies are just getting stronger and stronger in accordance with your level none of that counts for anything because fights will STILL BE JUST AS HARD.The way it's SUPPOSED to work is that you master the challenges presented by the enemies of a given region, then as you level you go explore to find more powerful enemies. The higher level you get, the farther from civilization you have to go to find powerful enemies. Scaling just removes the need to explore and makes leveling pointless.
Then you get to a point where there is nothing left that will present your character a challenge. Yay, you're now the dominator of worlds, and you can slaughter everything in your wake. Which for me, stays fun for maybe an hour or two, then I get bored.
And again, easy stuff doesn't get harder along with you. Do you remember Morrowind? Did you ever go back to the starting town after you got to level, oh, say 10 or so? There were new monsters there waiting to attack you. There was scaling in Morrowind, but it wasn't to the same degree as it will be in Oblivion. You ARE NOT going to see basic rats level up with your character. Instead, as you level, you'll find Goblin Warlords scattered across the wilderness awaiting your approach that will level up along with your character. You'll start encountering them at level 16 or so. Before then, you'll find far more weaker goblins looking to take your life.
And there is no way in fucking hell you can take the end boss at level one. The equipment that a higher level character will acquire, the increased skills that a higher level character will have, and the more powerful magic that a higher level character will have, will increase their ability to take down stronger threats. It's not a "oh, so you'll have more buttons to push" thing. Your character will become more powerful compared to the things you will have to fight over time, but you can expect the game to keep monsters around your character's level to keep things a challenge. Hell, the guide for the game (where this information has come from) specificly states that if you try to fuck with the guards at a low level, you're going to get your ass kicked. It states that higher level characters may be able to fight the guards, but isn't a good idea since they are much higher level than your character, and come at you infinately until you completely seclude yourself from society long enough in the wilds.
I don't see why this is such a big deal. Morrowind did almost the exact same thing, except it didn't scale for insanely powerful characters. Once you got to level 25 or so, you could kick everything's ass because the game stopped scaling with your character. Instead of having you wait for an expansion pack for challenging fights for a high level character, all Bethesda has done this time around is make it to where the highest tiered creature of each creature tree scales up with your character.
Again, it's not that big of a freakin' deal. Morrowind was almost the exact same way. If you don't believe me, start a new game, go out and level up your character to 10 or so, and head back to Seyda Neen. You should find some nice big Bull Netches floating around.
Baldur's gate was only "linear" because of the non scaled zones. You couldn't go to other places because they were too hard for your current level. You COULD go to them, you just wouldn't survive. That is realistic. That is immersive. A more immersive way to do things than to scale for a game like oblivion would be to have a mixture of hard and easy targets in the forest. You're exploring and can kill some wolves, but run away from a bear until you get to the right level. Then you wouldn't have this strange "man, the forest sure is full of wolves these days" affect of the scaled enemy system. And it would feel more life like and immersive.
So far it seems we're butting heads on two seperate subjects. The arguements for scaling all seem to be to make it challenging, while the arguments for non scaling deal with immersion. I suppose it just depends on why you play the game to begin with.
If it was, then Oblivion is the exact same way Monster generation-wise.
Maybe there's some confusion here, I'll directly quote the guide on monsters, and maybe this stupid arguement can stop.
quote:
Creatures-In general, creatures are not leveled to you. If you see an Ancient Ghost, you know that it is level 9 and has 170 hit points, no matter if you encounter it at level 9 or at level 29. Instead, the game provides you with a challenge by pulling creatures from leveled lists--as you rise in level, you will encounter high level creatures (although you will continue to see lower-level creatures as well). The exceptions to that role are the top-level creatures of each creatures type, which increase in strength with you to continue to provide a challenge for your high-level character. Quest-specific creatures are also leveled. These are noted in the creature tables with an (L).
Leveled lists are organized by creature type--so you'll always find undead in a tomb, Goblins in a Goblin lair, etc. While there are many exceptions to this rule, the following lists can be used as a guideline as to when you will start encountering creatures in different types of dungeons.
Willias fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 08:02 PM.
The main plot to Morrowind became absolutely trivial and thus boring simply because I explored the world too much too early. With this scheme, one can still have a challenge pretty much regardless when one discovers or begins a quest.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Someone PM me and lemme know if that link works. First time I've tried to host a file.
quote:
Willias had this to say about Cuba:
I heard a rumor that you're an idiot. Any truth to that?Someone PM me and lemme know if that link works. First time I've tried to host a file.
Slash n' Smash... The BIG Orc weapons shop!
Meanwhile, back in Noobsville, Capt Pongo of the Village guard has been doing next to nothing, and is now level 30.
Somehow, I get the feeling that I'm NOT the chosen one that will save the world. Pongo there is a bigger badass than me, and he's not even trying. Give him the armor I've found, and let him save the day.
I'll just stay here in Noobsville, content in the knowledge that the real hero is on the case.
quote:
Palador ChibiDragon had this to say about Punky Brewster:
I go out, risk my life all over the world, bust my ass fighting things that want to do downright disturbing things to my spine, and finally make it to level 20.Meanwhile, back in Noobsville, Capt Pongo of the Village guard has been doing next to nothing, and is now level 30.
Somehow, I get the feeling that I'm NOT the chosen one that will save the world. Pongo there is a bigger badass than me, and he's not even trying. Give him the armor I've found, and let him save the day.
I'll just stay here in Noobsville, content in the knowledge that the real hero is on the case.
At least it'll never get to the point where you'll be able to look at guards and send them flying.
I mean, seriously, it shouldn't be easy to go into a city and wipe it off the face of the earth.
quote:
Palador ChibiDragon said this about your mom:
Somehow, I get the feeling that I'm NOT the chosen one that will save the world. Pongo there is a bigger badass than me, and he's not even trying. Give him the armor I've found, and let him save the day.I'll just stay here in Noobsville, content in the knowledge that the real hero is on the case.
You aren't the chosen one
quote:
Willias painfully thought these words up:
At least it'll never get to the point where you'll be able to look at guards and send them flying.I mean, seriously, it shouldn't be easy to go into a city and wipe it off the face of the earth.
Why shouldn't it be? If you've gone off and mastered such and such magic then why should the guy that is a member of some random militia be able to do jack to you? Maybe 20 of them would have a chance, but one random schmuck guard should be roadkill to an adventurer that has reached his pinnical.
quote:
Naimah painfully thought these words up:
Why shouldn't it be? If you've gone off and mastered such and such magic then why should the guy that is a member of some random militia be able to do jack to you? Maybe 20 of them would have a chance, but one random schmuck guard should be roadkill to an adventurer that has reached his pinnical.
Who says the guards aren't training while you're out trying to save the world? I mean, seriously, Cyrodiil is the location of the Imperial Capital City. 
On a more serious note, because wiping out a city, should never, ever, ever be easy to do.
Eventually, you'll be able to take down some guards, with a great deal of difficulty, but you aren't Superman in this game.
From what I gather, the reason Bethesda implemented guards in this game the way they did, is to make breaking the law always punishing. You'll never get to a point in the game, where if you were to break the law, get caught, and try to resist arrest, that you wouldn't get your ass kicked.
A big badass adventurer type shouldn't have to worry about breaking the law because he -should- be able to kick the crap out of the Empire's Finest. The idea of something always being better than you, in a raw-stat sense, even if you're the best you can be, turns a lot of people away.
I'm still getting it, mind you. I was never a Rogue anyway. I can just see why people feel the way they do.
My question is this : Do the NPC's slowly respawn or get replaced? IE : If you lure a guard or two out of the way, slaughter them, then return and do it again, and again, and again... will you eventually empty the city of guards? Because I can see myself wasting time slowly murdering my way through city after city after city doing just that...
ArchAngel fucked around with this message on 03-19-2006 at 03:34 AM.
quote:
Khyron was listening to Cher while typing:
I must admit, I don't know if I like the monsters levelling as you do, or the guards for that matter... but I can see why they did it. I can also see how it could be more fun later on.My question is this : Do the NPC's slowly respawn or get replaced? IE : If you lure a guard or two out of the way, slaughter them, then return and do it again, and again, and again... will you eventually empty the city of guards? Because I can see myself wasting time slowly murdering my way through city after city after city doing just that...
They'll respawn.
And when you run, they'll chase you down.
And when you think you're safe, you'll run into Legion "foresters" (think Rangers) out in the wild as well.
Living as a criminal in this game could possibly be very interesting with the way it's set up, IMO.
And I understand why people don't like things leveling up with them. I've understood that from the beginning of the whole argument, thing is, I don't see how it's beneficial to the game to allow the player to achieve a super-god-like status.
It made sense somewhat in Morrowind, because you were a demi-god of sorts. In Oblivion though? You're just a guy that managed to get put in the right jail cell.
Besides that, I don't think a huge level gap of 10 levels will matter much once you've really developed your character. There are other encounters in the game (some specific bandits you can run into called Highwaymen) where the npcs will be higher level than your character is.
Finally, Morrowind wasn't really about the level up process for making your character really powerful. Don't get me wrong, leveling up DID increase your HP and your stats, but that was all leveling did. Raising your skills did more for your character IMO, and as the Oblivion guide puts it, NPC skills through auto-leveling don't develop nearly as fast as a player character's skills would.
It was before my PC gaming time.
quote:
Quoth Willias:
I never played Daggerfall. D:It was before my PC gaming time.
You didn't miss anything. It was buggier than an Indiana Jones movie, the combat system was pure, unadulterated ass, and the graphics were awful. But, hey, it was a big world with non-linear gameplay!
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Bloodsage stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
You didn't miss anything. It was buggier than an Indiana Jones movie, the combat system was pure, unadulterated ass, and the graphics were awful. But, hey, it was a big world with non-linear gameplay!
Don't forget to mention that it felt like playing a MMORPG with the difference that you are the only player. The game was huge and empty.
quote:
Bloodsage spewed forth this undeniable truth:
You didn't miss anything. It was buggier than an Indiana Jones movie, the combat system was pure, unadulterated ass, and the graphics were awful. But, hey, it was a big world with non-linear gameplay!
The bugs made Daggerfall fun. Finding new ways to break and exploit the game was the only reason to play.
quote:
Led had this to say about Cuba:
I kept trying to get into Morrowind. I would come up with awsome class ideas and spend hours piecing them together... but the combat kept killing it for me. I like having combos and abilities to push 'n stuff ;pDoes Oblivion have a better combat system in that regard?
Well...
First of all you can't miss like you could in Morrowind. Remember that idiotic feeling where you'd slice right through a guy and not land a hit? Apparently, that's gone. You hit, you do damage. I believe that increased weapon skills improve your damage with weapons, and then give perks (extra abilities for raising up a skill) which give extra attack abilities. (Disarm, Knockdown, and Paralyze for melee skills.)
Second, Blocking is manual. You hold down a button to block with your shield instead of the game doing it automatically. I like this. Also, as your Block skill raises, while I'm not sure of all of the perks, apparently you get Shield Bash abilities (the guide notes one where you knock the opponent down with your shield. Doesn't last as long as weapon skill Knockdown, but it's still a nice benefit because you perform it faster).
Third, Sneak Attacks. You can assassinate people while sneaking. If you are sneaking in the shadows around an opponent, and attack them with a 1h weapon or bow shot, you'll get a sneak attack multiplier added to your attack. The higher your sneak skill, the higher that multiplier is, and as a bonus perk, when you max the skill, you sneak attack enemies as if they had zero armor. The guide shows a screenshot of a character getting a 6x multiplier on a sneak attack with a bow.
Fourth, poisons. If you create a potion that has no beneficial effects, if will be counted as a poison. You can then apply that poison to swords/bows for increased effects on your attacks.
And I think that's about it. "Power attacks" are mentioned constantly, but I don't know if they are any different than in Morrowind where you held back your weapon for a longer period of time than a normal strike. The guide states that power attacks take longer to use, and swing more slowly but are more powerful than normal swings, so it may be different than Morrowind's system in that regard, I'm not sure.
Monsters are a lot more agile than they were in Morrowind. They can leap around and dodge.
And if you land a hit, it's a hit.
The second reason is specialization, the more you level up, the better you get at doing one thing specifically, and comapredivly worse at everything else, wich greatly changes how you have to play the game
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
-- George Herbert Walker Bush
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
quote:
Fazum'Zen Fastfist said this about your mom:
Daggerfall was absurd. The entire area outside of the cities was a huge plain, ha ha.
plus the world was freaken huge, like it woudl take literaly days to walk across the world, even on a horse
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
-- George Herbert Walker Bush
quote:
Quoth Willias:
Note, I could be wrong on the missing thing. It's heavily implied by the guide though that you don't miss as long as you actually hit the enemy with your weapon.
So let me get this straight: if you don't miss the bad guy, you score a hit? How revolutionary! Have they gone as far as to include the converse, whereby if you hit the bad guy, then you don't miss?
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
