quote:
Khyron stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
[QUOTE]In 1999, an estimated 17 percent of pregnant women smoked cigarettes in the past month, and 3 percent of pregnant women engaged in "binge" alcohol use.Among women aged 15 to 44 who were currently pregnant, about 17 percent reported the use of one or more tobacco products (cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, cigars, or pipes) in the past month (Table 1). Cigarettes were the most widely used tobacco product, with an estimated 416,000 pregnant women smoking cigarettes in the past month.
What constitutes an epidemic?
416 thousand pregnant women abusing their bodies with cigarettes alone?
Add in another 3%, and thats another 73 thousand woman fucking up their kids with alcohol.
So how many thousands more do you need before you consider it an 'epidemic'?[/QUOTE]
well put.
I never would have thought of going after that aspect of the argument, but then again, i prefer logic trains to stats, although stats are more IN YOUR FACE...
good one.
No, Really. Bite me.
Verily, mr opinion:
Firstly, so you can label me, I am pro-lizzife, as you will prolly see.
I think abortions are wrong morally, but thats a whole other issue. Going to for abortions to be completely banned is far too much to hope for, and will never go through. I would like to see abortions stay, but be harder to get.
In my opinion (disclaimer: excuse wording, isnt aimed at anyone on the boards) a two cent crackwhore who gets pregnant at the drop of a hat shouldnt be able to stroll into a clinic every two weeks and get another one sucked out. Someone like that doesn't deserve that kind of luxery or easy way out.
I think a way of partially restricting abortions would be needed. Possibly a high fee for it or something (wouldnt work, I guess), or B), a legal process. Like having to go into court and deemed an mother unsuitable for raising a child or summat, paying processing fees as well. This thread moves too fast, and I dont like debates, so I'll not be defending this. And yes, Im pro-capitol punishment In, out, like a ninja!
.
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about Cuba:
You're wondering why I'm so lax on the killing of babies through smoking/alcohol consumtion? It's because that even if we did make it illegal, it could never be enforced. It's one thing to shut down abortion clinics, it's another thing entirely to stop all pregnant women from getting booze and cigarettes.
The government seems to be under the delusion that they can prevent minors from getting tobacco/alcohol. So why not just apply that to pregnant women.
Whip a government mandated diet on them too, while they're at it.
I will not give my stance on abortion outside of a face to face conversation, since I'm a better speaker off of the computer/phone anyways.
What is the point above my statement? Topics like this are evil!
Then after gaining control of the world, I'll reveal my plans to a young man with spiked hair who forms a party and eventually destroys me.
Remember the most important part of being an evil villain, is revealing your plans to somebody who can stop you with a mysterious past that you happen to be involved in.
I believe abortion is wrong.
I believe a fertilized egg is a human life.
I would be happy if no baby was ever aborted or needed to be aborted again.
But I live in the real world.
Women are going to have abortions. Better that they have it in a proper medical environment than in some back alley somewhere. That way, when they are willing/able to have a child, they're still alive/healthy to do it.
I detest abortion, but I believe it should stay legal.
I do believe an unborn fetus is a person. But that doesn't change the situation for the scared 14-year old girl who's only choice is to have one.
If my girlfriend told me she was pregnant, and considering an abortion; I won't lie to you; I'd want the kid very very much. But it's not my body. I'd try everything I could think of to persuade her not to abort the child, but in the end, I would not stop her, no matter how much I wanted to. I'd mourn the loss of that child, but God help me, I would not stop her.
My $.02.
I was raised Catholic. I had to see the movie "The Silent Scream". For the longest time I considered myself pro-life, but then it occured to me:
I'm not a woman. I will never be a woman. It's not my place to tell a woman what to do with her body.
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Rodent King impressed everyone with:
Sorry; intentionally killing unborn babies isn't natural.
Wrong again. Chemical abortions, are in fact the release of hormones which trigger a natural miscarriage. The morning after pill (Which is in fact a just-in-case abortion) is chocked full of natural hormones that cause a natural process. And then again, even if it is murder, murder is, I'm sorry to say, natural. Violence is human nature. Though I do not feel Abortion is murder. Or violence. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]
8 women posted in this thread.
1 was pro-life (alleria).
The rest of the pro-lifers are the ones that never get to be put in that position in the first place.
Consider that for a while.
quote:
Azrael Heavenblade had this to say about Captain Planet:
Holy cow...I watch Metropolis and the thread jumps three pages. I'd continue the argument, but I just tripped over my own socks due to being tired, so I'm going to sleep. If this gets any more out of hand, I'm asking in advance for this to be locked, as I can forsee at least four more pages to this, and an inevitable lock.
[ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]
Spoilsport.
Now, anyways to the people saying that abortion is good because the kid would have a horrible life with no possible future. I would just like to say, I was one of those kids... guess what, my parents reminded me they never wanted me every day. I won't get into details, but my childhood sucked serious ass. but guess what? I got through it, and I seriously would not like to have had no chance at life just because of having nothing as a kid.
also, just because it was annoying me and has nothing to do with the topic, Karnaj... are you by any chance just going through a english class? because I swear all you are doing is going through the "fallacy" page in every highschool book and listing buzzwords to sound smarter. no offense, you have some fair arguments, just some of them strike me that way.
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DarkDragoon had this to say about John Romero:
also, just because it was annoying me and has nothing to do with the topic, Karnaj... are you by any chance just going through a english class? because I swear all you are doing is going through the "fallacy" page in every highschool book and listing buzzwords to sound smarter. no offense, you have some fair arguments, just some of them strike me that way.
So he's supposed to use smaller words because the big ones make him sound too smart?
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Archon painfully thought these words up:
Same thing. And an informed person can NOT seriously say that "no good comes of that religion". It's just not true. Christians have contributed as much to society and technology as any other religous, political, racial, or otherwise devided group has.
Please, by all means - list the contributions. In the mean time, I'll start summing up the list of wars and other rather fucked up things that happened, okay?
And yes, I can seriously say, as an informed person, that nothing good comes out of christianity.
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
quote:
Rodent King got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
You know what? I'm not gonna get into Christianity with you now, so I'll sum it up with this:Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
True Christians don't hurt other people.
I guess that means there are no true christians left in the world then. Do I really need to go ahead and sum up what has been done in human history all in the name of God? The idiocy perpetrated by some people in the name of the almighty is staggering - and yet you insist that it's not the case?
Right.
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about dark elf butts:
All those choices didn't work for you? Life gave you a crappy hand, don't take it out on your baby.
What I think is the most absolutely hilarious part of your argument is that you beat your moral drum about how you're speaking for those who can't speak for themselves, and that taking an unborn life is wrong....
...but then you turn around and say that rape victims should have the choice of having an abortion. What about their unborn child? They're just as innocent and deserving of your moral protection as any other child. Is it their fault that they're the product of a rape? Why do they deserve to die? How exactly do you justify that?
Is it for the mother's well-being (physical or emotional)? Because she'd be getting a baby she didn't want? What? I can guarantee you that any justification you apply to that exception to your morals can also apply to a woman who's protection failed on her.
So please, clarify your stance on that point, as what you've previously stated on it calls into question your moral authority on the non-rape cases since now you're showing that your rules have exceptions. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Drysart ]
If you disagree with the concept of abortions, don't get one. It's that simple. It's not the job of ANY member of the human race to be the "morality police" and prohibit people from doing something, be it abortion, premarital sex, drugs, or spanking a big blue dog with a half-raw pork chop, simply because they view it as "wrong".
And the idea that men can't have opinions because we aren't the ones who carry babies is completely absurd.
oh, and IBTL. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Koosh Man ]
quote:
Rodent King painfully thought these words up:
You're wondering why I'm so lax on the killing of babies through smoking/alcohol consumtion? It's because that even if we did make it illegal, it could never be enforced. It's one thing to shut down abortion clinics, it's another thing entirely to stop all pregnant women from getting booze and cigarettes.
[ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Demos ]
The fact that pro-abortion legislation was passed in the first place is proof that a ban will NOT stop abortions. Just ain't gonna happen. It will just be back to either women giving themselves their own abortions, and possibly killing themselves or causing permanent damage (Self-performed abortions with COATHANGERS were done before pro-abortion legislation), or it goes to the conditional ban, which we have already stated has the possibility for abuse.
quote:
Comrade Snoota stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
So he's supposed to use smaller words because the big ones make him sound too smart?
Nono, see, I'm a idiot because I'm calling people when they commit a informal fallacy. If they don't know how to debate without resorting to strawmen or circular logic, I should let them do it without comment.
And for the record, I haven't been in an English class in two years.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Drysart wrote:
...but then you turn around and say that rape victims should have the choice of having an abortion. What about their unborn child? They're just as innocent and deserving of your moral protection as any other child. Is it their fault that they're the product of a rape? Why do they deserve to die? How exactly do you justify that?Is it for the mother's well-being (physical or emotional)? Because she'd be getting a baby she didn't want? What? I can guarantee you that any justification you apply to that exception to your morals can also apply to a woman who's protection failed on her.
So please, clarify your stance on that point, as what you've previously stated on it calls into question your moral authority on the non-rape cases since now you're showing that your rules have exceptions.
All rules have exceptions. I don't like the idea of rape victims having abortions, but I don't think that they should have to carry that babby to term. My philosophy is based on the issue of having sex:
If you willingly have sex, you're willingly taking the chance of getting pregnant, birth control or not. Obviously, rape victims didn't have that choice, so the option of abortion should be open to them.
The whole "it is my body" Argument, doesn't fly. For that 9 months it is no longer JUSt your body. It is two bodies. The woman is responsible for not just herself but also the baby. Abortion is the most selfish act that a person can perform in this world. It is the cold and calculated murder of a child. Ask a woman who has not been able to carry a child to term how she feeels about abortion and she will get very angry at the fact that women would do such a thing.
Many women would die if it meant thier child could live.
And frankly I don't think a woman who has never had a child has anymore right to say abortion is right or wrong than a man does.
Any almost every woman I have ever met who has carried a child to term hates abortion as much as I do if not more.
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Demos had this to say about (_|_):
The fact that pro-abortion legislation was passed in the first place is proof that a ban will NOT stop abortions. Just ain't gonna happen. It will just be back to either women giving themselves their own abortions, and possibly killing themselves or causing permanent damage (Self-performed abortions with COATHANGERS were done before pro-abortion legislation), or it goes to the conditional ban, which we have already stated has the possibility for abuse.
Yeah, but since we give abortions to people in a safe environment, more happen. I'd rather have a tiny percent of women perform coathanger abortions than let anyone have sex without the consequences of thier actions.
quote:
Rodent King's account was hax0red to write:
Yeah, but since we give abortions to people in a safe environment, more happen. I'd rather have a tiny percent of women perform coathanger abortions than let anyone have sex without the consequences of thier actions.
And you claim moral superiority over those who support abortions?
Wow. Just...wow.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
From the book of Azizza, chapter 3, verse 16:
I really don't have the time to read through this whole post so let me just state my opinion.
I do not agree with abortion unless the case is extreme. As in the mother will die.
But even then I am inclined to point out that it goes againhst natural instincs for a human to kill thier child.The whole "it is my body" Argument, doesn't fly. For that 9 months it is no longer JUSt your body. It is two bodies. The woman is responsible for not just herself but also the baby. Abortion is the most selfish act that a person can perform in this world. It is the cold and calculated murder of a child. Ask a woman who has not been able to carry a child to term how she feeels about abortion and she will get very angry at the fact that women would do such a thing.
Many women would die if it meant thier child could live.And frankly I don't think a woman who has never had a child has anymore right to say abortion is right or wrong than a man does.
Any almost every woman I have ever met who has carried a child to term hates abortion as much as I do if not more.
How many 15 year olds do you know that would say that?
quote:
Rodent King enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Yeah, but since we give abortions to people in a safe environment, more happen. I'd rather have a tiny percent of women perform coathanger abortions than let anyone have sex without the consequences of thier actions.
Right, so you instead prefer that people take a greater risk at killing themselves or doing irreparable damage as opposed to getting the procedure done in a medically appropriate way?
I smell dual standards. Way to go, Mr. Morality - you just not only contradicted yourself, but you've shown that there really is no sense in debating anything with you because you'll just ignore valid points.
*exits thread*
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
quote:
Karnaj stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
And you claim moral superiority over those who support abortions?Wow. Just...wow.
People abuse stuff, that's what laws are for. Who am I to say it's not right to rob someone?
quote:
How.... Demos.... uughhhhhh:
How many 15 year olds do you know that would say that?
They should have kept thier legs together..
People seem to think they can avoid taking responsibility for thier actions. Abortion is an easy out for them. It is like kids that beat up someone at school and then blame a video game. It is the avoidence of the consequenses of ones actions.
Now rape is a bit different but I am not talking about those kind of cases right now.
quote:
Right, so you instead prefer that A TINY AMOUNT of people take a greater risk at killing themselves or doing irreparable damage as opposed to MASSES AND MASSES of people getting the procedure done in a medically appropriate way?
Fixed that for you.
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Demos had this to say about Robocop:
I think we also need a small reminder of how painful giving birth is. So much that many people opt for pain relief in the form of a spinal shot. Not to mention the morning sickness throughout term. Oh, and what about post-natal stress syndrom? How many women have been unable to cope with the change in their life, and killed themselves, their children, and the rest of the family? I don't think its possible for us to comprehend both the physical and mental implications of pregnancy.
Yeah god forbid that they have to be uncomfortable for this. They are bringing a new life into the world. Show me a woman holding her newborn child in her arms complaining to the child about what she was put through and I will show you a woman who should not be a mother.
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Demos wrote:
I don't think its possible for us to comprehend both the physical and mental implications of pregnancy.
Don't get into the argument that because we're male we have no say in this matter. This thread's not about that.
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Rodent King painfully thought these words up:
All rules have exceptions. I don't like the idea of rape victims having abortions, but I don't think that they should have to carry that babby to term.
But you morally believe that the baby is a living human being from the moment of conception, right? And you support one murder but not another? How exactly is it the baby's fault that its father was a rapist?
Or do your rules only apply when you can stomach them?
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Azizza said:
Yeah god forbid that they have to be uncomfortable for this. They are bringing a new life into the world. Show me a woman holding her newborn child in her arms complaining to the child about what she was put through and I will show you a woman who should not be a mother.
I agree. The point is that the number of women who would be obilgated to take the child to term outweigh the number of people looking to adopt, as was stated earlier. This would leave many children in the care of parent(s) who don't give a shit about the child. This is why we hear about infants left on church doorsteps, or in dumpsters, after they are already born, and in which case pretty much all of us agree it would be considered murder.
Don't get us wrong, us pro-choicers are in our own way trying to protect children too.
Example:
16, raped by jack ass boyfriend, and is living with couple of hippy parents that can barely support her.
In this scenario I say yes on all sides. Infact I would encourage it. What is better no life, or a life that will be horrible and torcherous for both the mother and the child, and will end up with the child repeating the mothers mistake and screwing up more kids until we have a long running family line of screwed up parents and children?
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This insanity brought to you by Rodent King:
Fixed that for you.
Illegal abortions are generally left unreported, for obvious reasons. It could be 10 women, it could be 10,000. :P
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Check out the big brain on Rodent King!
Fixed that for you.
I don't often get to this point but RK, please, extract your head from your rectal cavity.
Making abortions legal will not cause droves of people to suddenly show up for one. If you make abortions legal (like they are here in the Netherlands) then you might see a 5% increase. And that 5% is just from people who otherwise wouldn't have dared to have one since it's illegal. So actually, by making abortions legal, not only are you able to give the proper medical care, you're also not forcing people to do something illegal.
But I guess in your little world logic doesn't apply - and please, next time you "fix" my posts, back it up with statistics please.
Now, show some facts that prove that if you make abortion legal that instead of 'a tiny amount' suddenly you will have 'masses and masses'. And a definition (numerical) of 'a tiny amount' and 'masses and masses'.
Facts, bish. Facts.
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
No, no exceptions.
None at all.
If one exception you can think of is, "Well, imagine a 12 year old raped and she could possibly die if she gives birth"
Well, if she dies, that was God's plan for her.
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OtakuPenguin had this to say about (_|_):
ALL abortion is wrong in my opinion.No, no exceptions.
None at all.
If one exception you can think of is, "Well, imagine a 12 year old raped and she could possibly die if she gives birth"
Well, if she dies, that was God's plan for her.
I also don't believe in fate. I don't like the idea of everything being predetermined for me.
Well, I also don't believe in Christianity either.
Not saying anything to you specifically OP, just noticed and decided to state stuff about me.
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OtakuPenguin's account was hax0red to write:
ALL abortion is wrong in my opinion.No, no exceptions.
None at all.
If one exception you can think of is, "Well, imagine a 12 year old raped and she could possibly die if she gives birth"
Well, if she dies, that was God's plan for her.
Let's say, I'm the 12 year old who could die. Let's also say I'm an atheist. So, just because someone else thinks some supernatural being decided I had to die, I have to? That would be violating the gap between church and state, by letting ones religious views decide someone elses life.
