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Big_Mac had this to say about dark elf butts:
RAPE TIME!!!now is when we play the logic game with pro-life, but with rape exceptions.
Stipulation: abortion is wrong, but since rape is worse, we'll allow abortion for rape cases.
Scenario #1: All a woman needs to do is state she was raped in order to recieve an abortion. This will not significantly reduce the number of abortions, but it will cause a significant drain on the legal system in order to determine which cases were actual rape and which cases were merely invented to get an abortion. This is also unfair for men, because it will drastically increase the number of men accused of rape, and the mere accusation of such a thing is enough to ruin your life.
Scenario #2: Abortions are only granted to victims of rape where a rapist has been convicted. This will be unfair to victims of rape who were unable to identify an assailant, or where the case was too weak to warrant a guilty verdict, or where the rapist stays in hiding for 9 months after commiting the crime. This has the potential to ruin even more men's lives than scenario #1, because the jury might be more likely to convict if they knew that the woman would only be eligable for an abortion if they were to find the man guilty. This means not only more men in jail for rape, but more of a drain on the legal system. This is worse for women also, because they might not be eligable for an abortion where there was an actual bona-fide rape, just no evidence. Not a pretty case.
I don't like either case, so maybe the initial stipulation was flawed...
Didn't you read my post about how tiny the amount of rape-pregnancies are?
Anywho, Adoptions > Abortions in all cases. I'm only relenting about rape cases because of the tiny amount going on in the world and because of the mental trauma the woman's going through. But, not all rape-babies go on to live horrible lives.
Taken from a call-in from rape-abortion program on a radio talk show:
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Does anyone win after a rape?Once, after answering questions on rape on a radio show, one of your authors was called to the phone after the program. A womans voice said,
"You were talking about me. You see, I am the product of rape. An intruder forced his way into my parents house, tied up my father and, with him watching, raped my mother. I was conceived that night. Everyone advised an abortion. The local doctors and hospital were willing. My father, however, said, Even though not mine, that is a child and I will not allow it to be killed! I dont know how many times that, as I lay secure in the loving arms of my husband, I have thanked God for my wonderful Christian father." And so, does anyone win? Yes, the baby does.
*dances around with the pole and swings it carelessly*
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Pesco had this to say about Captain Planet:
Stop trying to make sense of Creationism
I don't see how a horse emptying its bowels of waste products is the beginging of a fly's life. If you want to insist this, please explain. I honestly do not see the connection, and if you do, you need to share it or i can't be made to change my mind.
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So quoth Pesco:
Yea... that like.. goes against everything we were made to do.
And killing unborn babies doesn't?
There are many ways to save lives that don't involve any emotional trauma.
Why not start there?
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Archon obviously shouldn't have said:
Well... damn. It's obviously impractical and that would imply that our stipulations are impractical as well.Ohh i got one! How about people stop having sex with every other person of the oposite sex they know? How about they WAIT until they are ready to support THEIR child?
Impractical? Howso?
The pro-life people get their wish. They get to take this wonderful new human life and ensure it is given the chance you're all so eager to give it. Am I right, or am I wrong?
RK's words apply here. You seem to know what's best for these people enough to force a decision on them. So you want to make the decision FOR these women, then you don't want to be the ones to live with the consequences.
Rodent King is a dumbass.
Karnaj is up with Bloodsage in logical debate skills.
Snoota is funny when he wants to be.
That is all.
RK shouldnt even have a fucking opinion, seeing as how he can never carry a child to term, and, gasp, risk his life to do so, but that's besides the point of him being a dumbass.
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How.... Rodent King.... uughhhhhh:
And killing unborn babies doesn't?
It's not killing. You've yet to prove that it is. Simply repeating your argument over and over is a fallacy, and doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for your position.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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From the book of Delphi Aegis, chapter 3, verse 16:
I have made three conclusions from this thread.Rodent King is a dumbass.
Karnaj is up with Bloodsage in logical debate skills.
Snoota is funny when he wants to be.
That is all.
RK shouldnt even have a fucking opinion, seeing as how he can never carry a child to term, and, gasp, risk his life to do so, but that's besides the point of him being a dumbass.
You're gonna wish you hadn't said that in the morning.
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Everyone wondered WTF when Big_Mac wrote:
My point was that you are stating that a fertilized egg is a human, and as such, killing it is wrong. Would it not also be wrong to do it harm by consuming alcohol? You want to outlaw one, but not the other?
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We don't need to make a law stopping pregnant women from smoking and drinking, they'll do it on thier own if they want their child. If they don't love their child, then they should have the decency to give the child the best chances for a healthy life.
There's not an epidemic of women trying to smoke and drink their child to death.
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Rodent King painfully thought these words up:
And killing unborn babies doesn't?
The human body naturally does abort quite a percentage of pregnancies. It's called miscarriage. So no, it doesn't go against what we are.
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How.... »Waisztarroz«.... uughhhhhh:
You're gonna wish you hadn't said that in the morning.
Why? I find it rather amusing that all he's done in this thread is say "Killing babies is wrong!" when a zillion people come in and list reasons why they aren't technically even human beings yet.. And he has yet to refute Khyron's argument, seeing as how it's rather unrefutable.. 
People like RK, while meaning well, have blinders on in life. They go through life not seeing how miserable and shitty it is, and try to make it a better place. While this is all well and good, it doesn't change much at all.
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Rodent King had this to say about Cuba:
Didn't you read my post about how tiny the amount of rape-pregnancies are?Anywho, Adoptions > Abortions in all cases. I'm only relenting about rape cases because of the tiny amount going on in the world and because of the mental trauma the woman's going through. But, not all rape-babies go on to live horrible lives.
i know that an extremely small number of pregnancies actually occur due to rape, but the point of my argument was not that. The point of my post was to illustrate the fallacy of outlawing abortions, but still allowing them for rape cases. Note the STIPULATION. I stated that these scenarios were from what could happen were abortion to be outlawed, but still permitted for rape cases.
My point is this: All or nothing. Either allow abortions to be freely available, or not legally available for anyone, not even rape-babies.
No, Really. Bite me.
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Rodent King's fortune cookie read:
There's not an epidemic of women trying to smoke and drink their child to death.
What about the huge numbers of smokers and drinkers?
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From the book of Delphi Aegis, chapter 3, verse 16:
Why? I find it rather amusing that all he's done in this thread is say "Killing babies is wrong!" when a zillion people come in and list reasons why they aren't technically even human beings yet.. And he has yet to refute Khyron's argument, seeing as how it's rather unrefutable..People like RK, while meaning well, have blinders on in life. They go through life not seeing how miserable and shitty it is, and try to make it a better place. While this is all well and good, it doesn't change much at all.
You haven't been a part of this thread since it got going and now you're trying to make comments on who is the "winner".
Additionally, you state that essentially all males should just shut up and go home when it comes to this subject.
Not a wise move.
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Delphi Aegis had this to say about pies:
I have made three conclusions from this thread.Rodent King is a dumbass.
Karnaj is up with Bloodsage in logical debate skills.
Snoota is funny when he wants to be.
That is all.
RK shouldnt even have a fucking opinion, seeing as how he can never carry a child to term, and, gasp, risk his life to do so, but that's besides the point of him being a dumbass.
RK is not a dumbass. He has strong moral convictions, but does not have all the facts.
You have made what, two posts this entire thread? Then come in saying RK has no right to an opinion? You sure do like to butt in when it seems like someone is losing to just get a few jabs. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Ferret ]
[Edit: Missed a word]
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Rodent King's account was hax0red to write:
And killing unborn babies doesn't?
Humans no longer really have a natural population control, so we are forced to a point to make our own. Thus why birth control and such is around. We really havent changed all that much in the way we reproduce... Just that through advances in various technology, the success rates for birth are much higher and life expectancies are much longer. Part of Evolution I guess... it was going to happen one way or another, if we control it or not, it will balance back out.
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Archon was naked while typing this:
Gotta go with RK on that one. A raped woman is raped, no matter how you slice it. The rapist goes to court and is found guilty not guilty or can't be tracked down, no matter how you slice it. They have what they have. But the baby still has a shot at life. Why take the babies life "for the mother sake" if it does nothing to benefit the mother? It only serves to destroy a human being.
You think avoiding the emotional and physical pain does nothing for the mother? Ok...
Certainly, though, we don't have to kill all the rape babies, but the choice should be open to the mother.
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Delphi Aegis got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
RK shouldnt even have a fucking opinion, seeing as how he can never carry a child to term, and, gasp, risk his life to do so, but that's besides the point of him being a dumbass.
Yep, only females should be given the right to debate this. So, wouldn't that take out most of the people on both sides of this issue?
I've noticed that a preponderance of pro-lifers also tend to favor capital punishment. So life is sacred until you exit the womb, but after that you're fair game? Especially if you're an abortion provider or clinic doctor.
Abortion, for better or worse, is as much a religious/moral issue as it is a legal one. Following that, why should pro-lifers get to inflict their morality on everyone else? If they feel that abortion is truly wrong, they shouldn't have one or put themselves in a position to need one. Furthermore, if I wanted to live by the rules of <insert church name here>, I'd join that church. Until then, what the church needs to do is use it's moral authority ON IT'S MEMBERS to see they don't stray.
I don't favor abortion as birth control, nor do I think it should be casually performed. But I'd much rather that a woman be honest and admit it if she can't raise a child then carry it to term in the name of some misguided morality. So unless there's a sudden surge in the number of people actually willing to adopt, that's not an option for everyone either.
Personally, if pro-lifers want to push the adoption card so much, let's make a deal. Suppose we've got a 15 year old crackhead from Harlem who's pregnant. If one of them agrees to adopt the baby, there's one less abortion performed. If they all take a pass, she gets her abortion and all the pro-lifers kindly shut their fuckin' pieholes about that one.
Rape and incest victims? No argument. If they want an abortion, they should get one. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
That's about all for now. I just wanted to get it all down, so sorry it's not as organized as I usually am.
I'm not naieve enough to think this will actually happen, however, but anyway.
RK is an idiot. He is blinded by morality. While he MEANS well, he is trying to see a grey picture in shades of white and black. It isn't possible, never will be. Ever.
And for the record, I was filling aliens full of holes in NS when this whole thread erupted in.. 2 and a half hours.
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There was much rejoicing when Rodent King said this:
Yep, only females should be given the right to debate this. So, wouldn't that take out most of the people on both sides of this issue?
oh come on! Alleria and i could duke it out! it'd be funny, especially if she sucks at this as much as i do. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Veruca Salt ]
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Check out the big brain on Archon!
Gotta go with RK on that one. A raped woman is raped, no matter how you slice it. The rapist goes to court and is found guilty not guilty or can't be tracked down, no matter how you slice it. They have what they have. But the baby still has a shot at life. Why take the babies life "for the mother sake" if it does nothing to benefit the mother? It only serves to destroy a human being.
You're the one that went off on how 'If people don't want the children in the first place, they shouldn't have had sex in the first place'. If you want quotes, I'll provide 'em.
Now you're saying, that 'If a woman doesn't want a child in the first place, and abstains from sex, then gets raped and pregnant, as unlikely as it may be, she should keep the kid anyways'.
Am I missing anything here?
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Verily, Dr. Pvednes, PhD doth proclaim:
The human body naturally does abort quite a percentage of pregnancies. It's called miscarriage.So no, it doesn't go against what we are.
Sorry; intentionally killing unborn babies isn't natural.
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Rodent King wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
There's not an epidemic of women trying to smoke and drink their child to death.
My point on the drug and alcohol issue is not that the women are trying to kill their unborn-children, but that since you're pushing the right to life onto an as yet unborn person, it is only logical that they would also have the righ to security of person, and should not be subjected to harm, were it avoidable.
You say that unborn children have the right to life. I say that if they have the right to life, then they logically also have the right not to be harmed were it avoidale, just as you have the right to not be battered about the hear with a large stick. It is wrong for me to beat you, but not wrong for a woman to harm her child by drinking? I would be held accountable for my ctions, but she is not? It's because that as-yet-unborn being DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS UNTIL IT'S BORN.
No, Really. Bite me.
Keep it up and I will lock the thread. This is the only warning this thread will receive.
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Delphi Aegis wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Until science has come up with a way to have a man carry a child to term, I fail to see why any of us are arguing here in the first place. We're not risking our lives to carry the child, we just stick something into a hole and hope all goes well.I'm not naieve enough to think this will actually happen, however, but anyway.
RK is an idiot. He is blinded by morality. While he MEANS well, he is trying to see a grey picture in shades of white and black. It isn't possible, never will be. Ever.
And for the record, I was filling aliens full of holes in NS when this whole thread erupted in.. 2 and a half hours.
Hello?
Democracy?
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Veruca Salt spewed forth this undeniable truth:
oh come on! Alleria and i could duke it out! it'd be funny, especially if she sucks at this as much as i do.
Yeah! Cmon! You know you wanna! Aanile and .. umm.. Gikkwiny, and.. .. er.. I dunno, a lot of other people could join you! 
Sarcasm disclaimer, don't hurt me.
Not technically an abortion, but similar. Keeps the pregnancy from taking, more or less.
I don't think Rape should be the vanguard shield that the matter is argued on, in any case. Murder is still Murder, even if you're a battered spouse. A crime is a crime no matter how much you shine it up. Or it's not a crime, in which case it flat out isn't. It's an On/Off, 1 or 0 situation. Either abortion is okay, or it's not. Arguing anything in the middle comes down to splitting hairs and avoiding dealing with the situation by offering half-measures instead.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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This insanity brought to you by Delphi Aegis:
Yeah! Cmon! You know you wanna! Aanile and .. umm.. Gikkwiny, and.. .. er.. I dunno, a lot of other people could join you!Sarcasm disclaimer, don't hurt me.
is this the part where i start going on and on about how i think it would suck to be pregnant?
But I'm not pro-life. I'm pro-choice. I'm glad there's an option for people who just wouldn't be good parents out there. I couldn't do it, but I don't fault those who can.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
Sorry, RK.
You still don't have a point, though.
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Delphi Aegis enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Sorry, LOG, it's just that when I see someone so blinded by morality and their own beliefs like RK, I tend to insult first and ask questions later.Sorry, RK.
You still don't have a point, though.
And your point, if any, is lost when you resort to name-calling instead of actual arguments. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: MorbId ]
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Big_Mac had this to say about Pirotess:
My point on the drug and alcohol issue is not that the women are trying to kill their unborn-children, but that since you're pushing the right to life onto an as yet unborn person, it is only logical that they would also have the righ to security of person, and should not be subjected to harm, were it avoidable.You say that unborn children have the right to life. I say that if they have the right to life, then they logically also have the right not to be harmed were it avoidale, just as you have the right to not be battered about the hear with a large stick. It is wrong for me to beat you, but not wrong for a woman to harm her child by drinking? I would be held accountable for my ctions, but she is not? It's because that as-yet-unborn being DOES NOT HAVE RIGHTS UNTIL IT'S BORN.
All your ideas about persecuting pregnant women for smoking/drinking/hurting their unborn child in some way aren't really what this threads about. Women who care for their child won't hurt it. Women who don't really care should have the decency not to hurt a future human being. Just as we as people should have the decency not to kill a future human being.
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Archon had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Ok, i probably should have made this clear earlier: I think abortion in all circumstances is wrong. HOWEVER, i will not try to argue that point. It is a faith-based conviction, not something i can argue logically. If someone gets raped and concieves, fine, have an abortion. If their is no medical way to save both baby and mother, fine, have an abortion. I may debate my logical convictions, but i refuse to try to force my faith based convictions on anyone else. Thats the #1 thing that gets under my skin about the more outspoken christians.
This man is the most intelligent being on the face of the earth.
He has an opinion about something, but sees that he cannot force it upon others, so he continues having said opinion, but does not force it upon others.
I congradulate you. 
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Delphi Aegis was all like:
This man is the most intelligent being on the face of the earth.He has an opinion about something, but sees that he cannot force it upon others, so he continues having said opinion, but does not force it upon others.
I congradulate you.
It's too late to make a save now.
Log
