quote:
»Waisztarroz« had this to say about pies:
You left it ambiguous.But we've stated already that a rape-only abortion system wouldn't work since any woman who wanted an abortion would just need to find the right man that she could turn things against.
That's a good 'what-if' scenario, but it could be stopped through a criminal investigation. If the woman was proven to be raped in a courtroom, then let her get an abortion.
quote:
Rodent King stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Yeah, and if people wanted illegal drugs badly enough, they'd get them as well. It doesn't mean we should make them legal.
Some countries are. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Demos ]
quote:
Rodent King Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Yeah, and if people wanted illegal drugs badly enough, they'd get them as well. It doesn't mean we should make them legal.
There's a big difference.
If you use drugs, something will happen to your body. You cause damage on purpose. But there's nothing bad if you don't use them.
If you don't have an abortion when one might be necessary, there are some very real risks involved that can in turn kill the mother and/or the baby.
quote:
Verily, Rodent King doth proclaim:
That's a good 'what-if' scenario, but it could be stopped through a criminal investigation. If the woman was proven to be raped in a courtroom, then let her get an abortion.
The woman doesn't always know the rapist to bring him forth, and finding him could be nigh-impossible.
On the other hand, she could falsely blame a man who might seem like the "raping type", perhaps someone deemed "creepy" that a jury could easily believe to be a rapist.
quote:
Verily, Karnaj doth proclaim:
[QB]Not until it passes some certain state of development can we call it alive. From that point forward, an abortion would be infanticide, plain and clear. Before that stage, however, you cannot call it alive, and cannot call it murder.[QB]
Where is this "certain state"?
quote:
If you'd bothered to read my posts, I wouldn't have to repeat myself like this.
quote:
Rodent King thought about the meaning of life:
To all you people badmouthing adoption clinics: Go to your nearest adoption clinic with a handgun and kill as many children as possible. You've got the gun, you obviously know what's best for them, and their miserable little lives are better off ended.
Or you could go to one and watch all the happy little children frolic and play with pink bunnies and hearts and whatnot. :P [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Veruca Salt ]
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about Pirotess:
To all you people badmouthing adoption clinics: Go to your nearest adoption clinic with a handgun and kill as many children as possible. You've got the gun, you obviously know what's best for them, and their miserable little lives are better off ended.
Your logic baffles me. How the hell do you get 'Slaughter Children' from 'Adoption clinics overpacked'? No one has said they know what's best for them. Given the fact that most Adoption Clinics are fucking hellholes, people have stated that it may be better to abort than adopt.
Also, have you ever seen an adoption clinic? Not just from the outside, but have you ever been inside and seen the look on the children's faces? No?
Also, Karnaj Raises a good point. Rebutt one of his arguements. Or Big_Mac's. Or Khyron's. Just one. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Ferret ]
quote:
Nobody really understood why Archon wrote:
Where is this "certain state"?
I can't say for sure, because I don't pretend to have a doctorate in Human Development, Neuroscience, or any other field necessary to make that assessment in a qualified, precise manner, and I won't wildly speculate. The preise timing isn't important. The fact that the distinction exists is.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
A sleep deprived »Waisztarroz« stammered:
The woman doesn't always know the rapist to bring him forth, and finding him could be nigh-impossible.On the other hand, she could falsely blame a man who might seem like the "raping type", perhaps someone deemed "creepy" that a jury could easily believe to be a rapist.
Unfortunatly, this topic has a good deal to do with what we are discussing. I'd rather not go there, seeing as it also brings in my opinions about moral decline, which in all probability would be more harshly rejected than the pro-life standpoint.
quote:
Ferret got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Your logic baffles me. How the hell do you get 'Slaughter Children' from 'Adoption clinics overpacked'? No one has said they know what's best for them. Given the fact that most Adoption Clinics are fucking hellholes, people have stated that it may be better to abort than adopt.Also, have you ever seen an adoption clinic? Not just from the outside, but have you ever been inside and seen the look on the children's faces? No?
It's called "Avoiding the Argument," and it's a sign that someone's attempting to cloud the fact that their argument's flimsy and weak.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
There is no 100% stop to getting pregnent. People can choose to use protection, but the only way to ensure it works is by going under the knife. Which ofcourse, would ruin future chances of having children when someone is ready to be a parent.
Just a thought.
quote:
Karnaj got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
I can't say for sure, because I don't pretend to have a doctorate in Human Development, Neuroscience, or any other field necessary to make that assessment in a qualified, precise manner, and I won't wildly speculate. The preise timing isn't important. The fact that the distinction exists is.
So, you're saying that whatever the science and medical worlds proclaim as the start of human life is when it starts?
And damn if this converstation isn't going too fast to keep up with!
quote:
Pesco wrote this stupid crap:
There is no 100% stop to getting pregnent.
*ahemabstinanceahem*
Please don't ostracize(sp?) me on principal.
quote:
Archon had this to say about Optimus Prime:
So, you're saying that whatever the science and medical worlds proclaim as the start of human life is when it starts?And damn if this converstation isn't going too fast to keep up with!
Science is a better judge of when it begins than any other, yes.
And you're right. We're on our way to a 400+ post thread! 
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
However, more to the point, first-trimester abortions aren't killing babies. It's, as Mortious put it (very eloquently) in another thread, like they've started constructing an office building, but no-one's though about moving in yet. It's a collection of tissue. It can't possibly survive on its own. Biologically, whatever anyone might say touchy-feely-wise, it's akin to a parasite...it gives nothing back physiologically, and its genetic structure is only 50% like the host organism. It's not a person, it's not thinking on its own, it's a collection of cells with a potential.
That's what the heartless evil bastard who isn't touchy-feely thinks, in any case.
I will agree with Azakias; no woman should ever think about abortion as a form of birth control. There's a chance if you have an abortion that you'll be rendered infertile. the more abortions you have, the higher the cumulative chance of permanent infertility. Just because you didn't want a child at 24 doesn't mean you won't change your mind at 30. I know a lot of 20somethings who wouldn't make good parents, but they might if they've matured some and prepared themselves by the time they're 30 or whatever. Be a shame to be infertile.
But ULTIMATELY, it's not my body. Not my choice. If my girlfriend got pregnant, I might not want her to get an abortion. But it's not my choice. It might be hazardous for her to carry the child for medical reasons, but it's not my choice. I might, in fact, want her to have an abortion if it would potentially shorten her life. But I can't make her have an abortion, and therefore I can't make her NOT have an abortion in other situations.
There are some decisions which, like it or not, a woman has to make and live with for herself. I can (and would) offer my input were I involved, but otherwise...no.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Archon had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
And damn if this converstation isn't going too fast to keep up with!
That's okay. I'm going to bed soon. Karnaj and Ferret and Big_Mac are starting to make me feel dumb. ;( onose~
Aaaaaaaah.
quote:
ACES! Another post by Karnaj:
Science is a better judge of when it begins than any other, yes.And you're right. We're on our way to a 400+ post thread!
quote:
Conception (fertilization) marks the beginning of the life of a human being ... There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological and scientific writings."
Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, p.7
And this, but it doesn't add quite the weight:
Professor M. Matthews-Roth of Harvard University: "It is scientifically correct to say that individual human life begins at conception."
Professor J. Lejeune, who discovered the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome: "Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception." [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Archon ]
quote:
This one time, at Archon camp:
Conception (fertilization) marks the beginning of the life of a human being ... There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological and scientific writings."
Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, p.7
I wonder what percentage of those doctors are pro-life themselves. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Ferret ]
quote:
Archon probably says this to all the girls:
Conception (fertilization) marks the beginning of the life of a human being ... There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological and scientific writings."
Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, p.7
"Marking the beginning" does not mean the start.
A horse taking a shit "marks the beginning" of a fly being born. It doesn't mean it's the start of the fly's life.
quote:
Ferret had this to say about Knight Rider:
I wonder what percentage of those doctors are pro-life themselves.
Thats the point. A group of doctors didn't say that. A congressional sub-committee took an objective view and presented their findings.
quote:
Comrade Snoota had this to say about the Spice Girls:A horse taking a shit "marks the beginning" of a fly being born.[/QB]
I fail to see the logic in this.
quote:
Archon enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
I fail to see the logic in this.
I see a Creationism crack in there 
quote:
Nobody really understood why Archon wrote:
Thats the point. A group of doctors didn't say that. A congressional sub-committee took an objective view and presented their findings.
I wasn't refuting you, I was just wondering.
Also, I'm sure a number of the people in the committee are doctors, or else they are making decisions without scientific basis.
quote:
Big_Mac had this to say about Optimus Prime:
is it safe to assume that pro-life people generally believe the following:
A FERTILIZED HUMAN EGG IS HUMANhowever, HUMAN, as defined in a medical dictionary:
[QUOTE] Belonging to man or mankind; having the qualities or attributes of a man; of or pertaining to man or to the race of man; as, a human voice; human shape; human nature; human sacrifices.
I have now stipulated that a fertilized human egg is a human person. The logical consequences here are immense. It would now be wrong for a woman to kill her yet unborn child, even if it were an unconscious act of the body. When the female body decides to terminate this human life, is that now involountary manslaughter? How about if the woman drinks alcohol or smokes cigarettes during the pregnancy, both of which are harmful to the yet unborn child. Is she now guilty of negligence? Assault? Causing bodily harm? Is it now illegal to keep pregnant women in prison, because that is depriving her child to the right to freedom, without due process?[/QUOTE]
That's absurd.
Would I demand that the child of a criminal be placed in the cell with him? Nope, that'd be putting the penalty of the father onto the sons. (But we don't know anything about children paying for their parents mistakes 
) I'm saying that the intentional killing of another human life is wrong. We don't need to make a law stopping pregnant women from smoking and drinking, they'll do it on thier own if they want their child. If they don't love their child, then they should have the decency to give the child the best chances for a healthy life.
now is when we play the logic game with pro-life, but with rape exceptions.
Stipulation: abortion is wrong, but since rape is worse, we'll allow abortion for rape cases.
Scenario #1: All a woman needs to do is state she was raped in order to recieve an abortion. This will not significantly reduce the number of abortions, but it will cause a significant drain on the legal system in order to determine which cases were actual rape and which cases were merely invented to get an abortion. This is also unfair for men, because it will drastically increase the number of men accused of rape, and the mere accusation of such a thing is enough to ruin your life.
Scenario #2: Abortions are only granted to victims of rape where a rapist has been convicted. This will be unfair to victims of rape who were unable to identify an assailant, or where the case was too weak to warrant a guilty verdict, or where the rapist stays in hiding for 9 months after commiting the crime. This has the potential to ruin even more men's lives than scenario #1, because the jury might be more likely to convict if they knew that the woman would only be eligable for an abortion if they were to find the man guilty. This means not only more men in jail for rape, but more of a drain on the legal system. This is worse for women also, because they might not be eligable for an abortion where there was an actual bona-fide rape, just no evidence. Not a pretty case.
I don't like either case, so maybe the initial stipulation was flawed...
No, Really. Bite me.
for the most part , stayed away from baseless and illogical points and, ya know, other basic shit-flinging.quote:[/QUOTE]
Archon had this to say about Optimus Prime:
[QUOTE]Conception (fertilization) marks the beginning of the life of a human being ... There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological and scientific writings."
Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, p.7
Thought you'd do something like that. Nice try, really, but this one falls by the wayside.
That quote is HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY out of date. Science has not sat still in the last 20 years. All of scientific knowledge doubles at a rather precipitous rate, every three to four years, which means, giving the benefit of the doubt, we know thirty-two times more about life, the universe, and everything than we did 20 years ago.
Nice try, though. Your tactic is indeed valid, but your material is too far out of date to be valid in our discussion.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
To all you people badmouthing adoption clinics: Go to your nearest adoption clinic with a handgun and kill as many children as possible. You've got the gun, you obviously know what's best for them, and their miserable little lives are better off ended.
You obviously know what's best for any one planning an abortion.
I repeat : If you pro-life people are so riled up and upset over abortion, YOU take the babies, YOU take the children, YOU raise them in place of their mother/father.
It's a win-win situation! You guys get to keep the right-to-life you're clutching so tightly, and unfit or unable parents that just can't or don't want those children, can go on with their lives without.
Where's the flaw in my logic? You want it so badly you're forcing a decision upon these people. So you get to bear the consequences of the decision. If you don't want the consequences, then don't force the issue.
quote:
How.... Pesco.... uughhhhhh:
I see a Creationism crack in there
Well, seriously. How the hell does a pile of shit mark the begining of a flys life? You may as well say the horse gave birth to the fly. Or the horse's owner/raiser is responsible for the flys being spawned in said manure.
quote:
Archon's account was hax0red to write:
Well, seriously. How the hell does a pile of shit mark the begining of a flys life? You may as well say the horse gave birth to the fly. Or the horse's owner/raiser is responsible for the flys being spawned in said manure.
Stop trying to make sense of Creationism
quote:
Check out the big brain on Khyron!
You obviously know what's best for any one planning an abortion.I repeat : If you pro-life people are so riled up and upset over abortion, YOU take the babies, YOU take the children, YOU raise them in place of their mother/father.
It's a win-win situation! You guys get to keep the right-to-life you're clutching so tightly, and unfit or unable parents that just can't or don't want those children, can go on with their lives without.
Where's the flaw in my logic? You want it so badly you're forcing a decision upon these people. So you get to bear the consequences of the decision. If you don't want the consequences, then don't force the issue.
Well... damn. It's obviously impractical and that would imply that our stipulations are impractical as well.
Ohh i got one! How about people stop having sex with every other person of the oposite sex they know? How about they WAIT until they are ready to support THEIR child?
quote:
Karnaj had this to say about Cuba:
Thought you'd do something like that. Nice try, really, but this one falls by the wayside.That quote is HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY out of date. Science has not sat still in the last 20 years. All of scientific knowledge doubles at a rather precipitous rate, every three to four years, which means, giving the benefit of the doubt, we know thirty-two times more about life, the universe, and everything than we did 20 years ago.
Nice try, though. Your tactic is indeed valid, but your material is too far out of date to be valid in our discussion.
Damn, i didn't even see the date.
*goes back to digging around the net*
quote:
Archon thought about the meaning of life:
Ohh i got one! How about people stop having sex with every other person of the oposite sex they know? How about they WAIT until they are ready to support THEIR child?
Yea... that like.. goes against everything we were made to do.
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about the Spice Girls:
That's absurd.Would I demand that the child of a criminal be placed in the cell with him? Nope, that'd be putting the penalty of the father onto the sons. (But we don't know anything about children paying for their parents mistakes
) I'm saying that the intentional killing of another human life is wrong. We don't need to make a law stopping pregnant women from smoking and drinking, they'll do it on thier own if they want their child. If they don't love their child, then they should have the decency to give the child the best chances for a healthy life.
My point was that you are stating that a fertilized egg is a human, and as such, killing it is wrong. Would it not also be wrong to do it harm by consuming alcohol? You want to outlaw one, but not the other?
No, Really. Bite me.
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Karnaj said:
Thought you'd do something like that. Nice try, really, but this one falls by the wayside.That quote is HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY out of date. Science has not sat still in the last 20 years. All of scientific knowledge doubles at a rather precipitous rate, every three to four years, which means, giving the benefit of the doubt, we know thirty-two times more about life, the universe, and everything than we did 20 years ago.
Nice try, though. Your tactic is indeed valid, but your material is too far out of date to be valid in our discussion.
21, nearly 22 years actually. Which ever so slightly makes your point even more valid. *grins*
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Archon said:
Well... damn. It's obviously impractical and that would imply that our stipulations are impractical as well.Ohh i got one! How about people stop having sex with every other person of the oposite sex they know? How about they WAIT until they are ready to support THEIR child?
I have a Discworld quote ready, this time. It's from memory and not exact, though.
quote:
You could look at people and say, "This is how they are, how can we deal with it?" or you could think it over in your head and say, "This is how people should be, how can we make them that way?"
And you're basically arguing the latter, which has yet to actually work.
