quote:
MorbId obviously shouldn't have said:
I'm not saying that abortion is pleasant or a cure-all. But there are simply cases when it is the least cruel option.
Adoption clinics.
quote:
Azrael Heavenblade said this about your mom:
Right, I remember that from my AP Gov class from a while back. A variant on the body's natural mechanism of cells self-destructing if they're malfunctioning. Typically, for the potential pregnancies this happens to, the fetus would be deformed or unable to survive, so the woman's body eliminates it to start with.
Wrong. Extremely often it's for no reason whatsoever. But also for that reason.
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about (_|_):
Or just a pre-human that's got no rights yet.
Pre-Human, as in, pre living
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Waitasec, which is it? A group of cells is living tissue that can be killed? Or just a pre-human that's got no rights yet.
What he means is that the life of the cells is done, but the gestalt that is the fetus, which is the potential for a multi-cellular organism, which could not survive except in a test tube would not be ending a human life, as opposed to the third trimester, where the multicellular human could indeed survive.
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Rodent King wrote:
Adoption clinics.
Number willing to adopt < Unwanted bebes.
quote:
Dr. Pvednes, PhD wrote this stupid crap:
Wrong. Extremely often it's for no reason whatsoever. But also for that reason.
So I forgot one part of it 
Its been a year or two.
Stay the fuck out of my matters and I'll stay out of yours.
There are plenty of "potential" lives we can save by donating to charity or working with humanity organizations; the truth is, there are so many potentials that it is necessary to stop thinking about them and instead start dealing with that has actually happened. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: »Waisztarroz« ]
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about Tron:
Adoption clinics.
You mean those places some children spend their entire life until adulthood in, because they're not the "perfect baby" that most adoptive parents want?
Adoption clinics just don't work. And the people who think they do have never actually had any sort of contact with one.
quote:
Rodent King was listening to Cher while typing:
Waitasec, which is it? A group of cells is living tissue that can be killed? Or just a pre-human that's got no rights yet.
A fertilized egg is a set of cells designed to form a human being. They are living, but they are not a human being, just a blueprint.
quote:
Rodent King said:
Adoption clinics.
Have you ever seen an adoption center? many are underfunded and overpacked. Most children are never adopted. Would you rather send a children through that and possibly worse foster parents? [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Ferret ]
quote:
Rodent King's account was hax0red to write:
Adoption clinics.
Delightful. Nevermind the fact that there are children who still won't be wanted. Nevermind that being bounced from foster parent to foster parent is a traumatic experience of its own. Most services of that kind are understaffed and underfunded as well, so they can't deal with the children they already have.
"Every complex problem has a simple solution." is a favorite saying of mine, if a sarcastic one. This, in particular, is an issue that consists of nothing but shades of grey. And that is the entire problem with the pro-life stance; it's trying to force it into black and white divisions.
quote:
Khyron had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Why not? Because you say so?
I'm speaking in place of the kids who can't.
What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.
Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
Should a woman who has been raped have to go through with the pain and hard labor of giving birth just because some people think it's morally right?
Hah.
quote:
Rodent King had this to say about Knight Rider:
Waitasec, which is it? A group of cells is living tissue that can be killed? Or just a pre-human that's got no rights yet.
*sigh* If you're going to make me repeat myself, this is going to take a much longer time than it has to.
The cells are living. The undergo mitosis, DNA transcription, the full nine.
Now pay attention, because this is important:
The fetus is not alive. It is, simply put, a collection of LIVING CELLS that we give a name. Not until it passes some certain state of development can we call it alive. From that point forward, an abortion would be infanticide, plain and clear. Before that stage, however, you cannot call it alive, and cannot call it murder.
If you'd bothered to read my posts, I wouldn't have to repeat myself like this.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
»Waisztarroz« had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
It really isn't anyone else's right to come in and say that someone cannot have an abortion (especially an early one).Stay the fuck out of my matters and I'll stay out of yours.
There are plenty of "potential" lives we can save by donating to charity or working with humanity organizations; the truth is, there are so many potentials that it is necessary to stop thinking about them and instead dealing with that has actually happened.
Notice how my two biggest questions are unanswered :
1) So if you pro-life people are so damn concerned about other people's babies, why don't YOU adopt, take care of, and raise them? YOU're the ones who are fighting so hard to give these children life despite their biological mother's rights or needs. YOU take care of the kids.
2) RK says 'It's not a woman's right to get an abortion'. Why not? If it's because 'she hasn't the right to kill', then at what point does it become killing? If it's when 'it's just a group of cells', then the same could be said for any vegetable or animal that you eat regularly. If the fetus has grown to the point where its brain is functional enough to be 'aware' of its surroundings, to react and think independently, then it's not a fetus, it's a baby.
quote:
Rodent King's fortune cookie read:
Yep, every day I hear about children hanging themselves because they're unpopular. Most leave notes telling their parent that they wish they'd been aborted and had missed out on all the crap they'd gone through.
Cute how you edited that. Next time edit some relevance into it. It may not neccessarily be that kid's parents' fault that it doesn't get the same benefits as Allison. Unexpected things happen. Not everyone is rich like Allison's parents. Do you think my dad expected it when he got laid off a few years ago and we could barely afford to keep things like the electricity on?
I guess you think it's right that Fat Lauren got with the first guy to ever be nice to her, got beaten up and pregnant and lived a trailor-park life like on COPS, Matt got called a faggot everyday in the hallways, Justin got called an Ethiopian because he's tall/black/skinny, Maria was constantly harrassed and called a bean-picker, etc etc etc.
quote:
Rodent King thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
It's the woman's choice to have sex; protected or unprotected, it's still her choice to take the risk. Once the life is made, she doesn't have the right to take it back.
So you want to, say, put a stopper on some random 16-year-old girl's life just because a condom broke? And what if weren't the woman's choice, AKA what if she were raped? Do you really think she wants to have her rapist's baby?
quote:
How.... Azrael Heavenblade.... uughhhhhh:
[QB]I doubt the professor showed the teenage girl being put into a body bag after dying from complications from an illegal abortion, or the young lady of thirteen who couldn't live through the birth of her child because her parents denied her the right to an abortion. I am not for all abortions, just where it is vitally necessary to the life and health of the parent and possibly the child, if it is born. For instance, if a child was to be born with a fatal disease, would it not be more merciful to not allow it to be born and suffer before dying so soon, its life full of pain? I don't think it should be open to the person who says, "Well, I just don't want a child right now."[QB]
93% of women who have an abortion say they did it for "social reasons."
Since chemical abortions are relatively unstudied the following information only applies to surgical abortions, the more common type anyway.
The process, which is more often than not quite painful, is usually performed with reasonably strong general anasthetics. This, however, increases the chances of a uterine perforation or cervical damage significantly.
Bleeding, hemorrhaging, laceration of the cervix, menstrual disturbance, inflammation of the reproductive organs, perforation of the bladder or bowels, and serious infections are common short term results.
Often long term results can pop up. A damaged uterine lining( common) can lead to infertility. There is a slightly increased chance of ectopic pregnancy, and the chance of future sterility is more than doubled. Future pregnancies have a hightened chance of miscarriage. These risks greatly increase with subsequent abortions.
The potential for complications is greatly dependant on the experiance and competency of the abortionist. Abortion clinic staff are on average less qualified than an OB-GYN. This can lead to extra complications involving retention of fetal and placental tissue.
One of the greatest risk is that with the shock to your body, comes an increased risk of breast cancer. Studies have shown that on average an abortion increases the chance of getting breast cancer before 45 by 50%. For women under 18, the increased chances jump astonomically to around 800%.
Post on psychological complications to come soon.
quote:
MorbId got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Delightful. Nevermind the fact that there are children who still won't be wanted. Nevermind that being bounced from foster parent to foster parent is a traumatic experience of its own. Most services of that kind are understaffed and underfunded as well, so they can't deal with the children they already have."Every complex problem has a simple solution." is a favorite saying of mine, if a sarcastic one. This, in particular, is an issue that consists of nothing but shades of grey. And that is the entire problem with the pro-life stance; it's trying to force it into black and white divisions.
So, by that logic, newborn babies whose parents have died in a horrible car crash should be killed too? Who are we to say
"You're life sucks, I'll end it for you."
If their life sucked that badly, they'd kill themselves. It's their choice.
quote:
Rodent King's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
I'm speaking in place of the kids who can't.What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.
Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
That is called the slippery-slope argument. It is logically flawed. Don't.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by Rodent King:
I'm speaking in place of the kids who can't.What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.
Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
That's the nice thing about speaking for those without a voice; they can't contradict you.
The message society is sending is a dangerous one, certainly. But it is the fault of the society, and you won't be able to change it by punishing the child and its mother. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: MorbId ]
quote:
From the book of Rodent King, chapter 3, verse 16:
So, by that logic, newborn babies whose parents have died in a horrible car crash should be killed too? Who are we to say
"You're life sucks, I'll end it for you."If their life sucked that badly, they'd kill themselves. It's their choice.
Some of them do. But it's not going to make the front page of the papers very often, since no one cared about them while they were alive, right?
quote:
From the book of Archon, chapter 3, verse 16:
93% of women who have an abortion say they did it for "social reasons."Since chemical abortions are relatively unstudied the following information only applies to surgical abortions, the more common type anyway.
The process, which is more often than not quite painful, is usually performed with reasonably strong general anasthetics. This, however, increases the chances of a uterine perforation or cervical damage significantly.
Bleeding, hemorrhaging, laceration of the cervix, menstrual disturbance, inflammation of the reproductive organs, perforation of the bladder or bowels, and serious infections are common short term results.
Often long term results can pop up. A damaged uterine lining( common) can lead to infertility. There is a slightly increased chance of ectopic pregnancy, and the chance of future sterility is more than doubled. Future pregnancies have a hightened chance of miscarriage. These risks greatly increase with subsequent abortions.
The potential for complications is greatly dependant on the experiance and competency of the abortionist. Abortion clinic staff are on average less qualified than an OB-GYN. This can lead to extra complications involving retention of fetal and placental tissue.
One of the greatest risk is that with the shock to your body, comes an increased risk of breast cancer. Studies have shown that on average an abortion increases the chance of getting breast cancer before 45 by 50%. For women under 18, the increased chances jump astonomically to around 800%.
Post on psychological complications to come soon.
While those are valid risks, they are magnified immensely by having the procedure done illegally, sometimes resulting in the death of the woman who the operation is being performed on. And I'd be interested to where you found the 93% statistic, of "social reasons". Elaborate...what social reasons? As in they were teenagers, unable to afford a child, etc? Not blasting your point, but I am curous as to where you got this info.
Edit: Also, for statistical purposes, if a woman was asked why they had an abortion, what answer would they be more likely to give on such a sensitive issue? Would they say that they are only fifteen, that they can't afford to raise a child, that they were raped? Or would they prefer the ambiguous: "I did it for social reasons"? [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Azrael Heavenblade ]
quote:
Rodent King Model 2000 was programmed to say:
What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
What kind of society is it where a woman who cannot support a child is made to bring it into this world?
quote:
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
Your implying that people will always be 'degrading', that the only rational thinkers are on 'your side'. People can think. Just allowing choice doesn't mean that people are gunning for zygotes or blastocytes. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Ferret ]
quote:
Rodent King Model 2000 was programmed to say:
I'm speaking in place of the kids who can't.What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.
Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
Bullshit. Your appeals to pity and unsupported claims of rampant moral decline and child-killing are the worst kind of arguments you could present. Your extrapolation is entirely unfounded; were you to present some kind of evidence to back it up, you MIGHT have a leg to stand on, but as it stands, you're up shit creek without a paddle on this one.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Rodent King wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I'm speaking in place of the kids who can't.What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.
Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
So, you're saying to push the decision upon a woman who has zero ability to raise a child? You think that parents who would abort a baby will, for certain, be well-adjusted people who can give that baby the care it needs?
What if that child is brought into life, can't be fed, can't be cared for, and dies of malnutrition in under a year because the parents are too poor to be able to provide it?
You're speaking for that baby who lives a miserable year of suffering then dies because of a fate forced upon his parents?
What if those parents were bad at it? What if that child goes through his entire life being told he's a mistake, worthless, they never wanted him... that the only reason that he exists is because a group of self-righteous people who think that a mistake shouldn't be rectified, didn't want them to get an abortion?
You're talking for that child too?
code:
Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
- Feels unready for responsibility 21%
- Feels she can't afford baby 21%
- Concern for how baby would change her life 16%
- Relationship problem 12%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 11%
- Has all the children she wants 8%
- Other reasons 4-5%
TOTAL: 93%
And another curious bit of information from this study: Rape or Incest 1%
Hum this got lost when i edited it:
Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?" Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20, No.4 (July/August 1988). P. 170. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Archon ]
quote:
How.... Rodent King.... uughhhhhh:
I'm speaking in place of the kids who can't.What kind of society are we when we think that it's all right for a woman to get pregnant, not like her child, kill it, then repeat the process? I'm trying to stop society from degrading into a no-consequences mindset. When will it stop?
This year:Embryos without brainwaves aren't human, you can kill them.
Later on: Fetuses that aren't breathing yet, you can kill them.
Later still Late term pregnancies haven't been born yet, you can kill them.
When will it end?
Quite simply, its just plain jumping-the-gun. You can't anticipate the future.
I'm actually for abortion in the case of rape, but that doesn't change my views on the whole.
Here, I'll give you some stats:
quote:
Are assault rape pregnancies common?No, they are very rare.
Are there accurate numbers?
The Justice Dept., from 1973 to 1987, surveyed 49,000 households annually, asking questions on violence and criminal acts. The results of those reported were:
1973 completed rapes 95,934
1987 completed rapes 82,505
The study stated that only 53% were reported to police. Accordingly, the total numbers were: 1973 181,016 : 1987 155,667 The Washington Times, Jan. 14, 1991, A-5
A more recent Justice Dept. report, using a study designed differently with more direct questions, returned a result of 170,000 completed rapes plus 140,000 attempted rapes. Nat. Crime Victim Report, US Justice Dept. Aug. 95, R. Bachman
And how many pregnancies result?
About 1 or 2 for each 1000. Using the 170,000 figure, this translates into an overall total of 170 to 340 assault rape pregnancies a year in the entire United States.
Only one or two out of 1000? Please explain.
There are about 100 million women in the United States old enough to be at risk for assault rape. Lets use a figure of 200,000 forcible rapes every year. The studies available agree that there are no more than two pregnancies per 1,000 assault rapes.
Alright! Now we can just let those third-world country fuckers starve to death because they don't make up the entire world's population, so we can just ignore them!
I love this logic. 
quote:
Azrael Heavenblade's fortune cookie read:
While those are valid risks, they are magnified immensely by having the procedure done illegally, sometimes resulting in the death of the woman who the operation is being performed on.
Yes. If a woman wants an abortion badly enough, not a whole lot is going to stop her, legal & safe or not.
quote:[/QUOTE]
Rodent King had this to say about dark elf butts:
All right, it seems you people are falling back on the rape cases to stand on.I'm actually for abortion in the case of rape, but that doesn't change my views on the whole.
Which leads to the fact that, as someone else pointed out earlier, men involved in consensual sex would be charged with rape for the sole purpose of providing the woman with the option of abortion. Oh, and heck, some extra damages in the form of cash on the side too.
quote:
»Waisztarroz« got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Just because it happens to a low number of people means it can be ignored!Alright! Now we can just let those third-world country fuckers starve to death because they don't make up the entire world's population, so we can just ignore them!
I love this logic.
I did say I was FOR abortions in the case of rape didn't I? 
however, HUMAN, as defined in a medical dictionary:
quote:
Belonging to man or mankind; having the qualities or attributes of a man; of or pertaining to man or to the race of man; as, a human voice; human shape; human nature; human sacrifices.
I have now stipulated that a fertilized human egg is a human person. The logical consequences here are immense. It would now be wrong for a woman to kill her yet unborn child, even if it were an unconscious act of the body. When the female body decides to terminate this human life, is that now involountary manslaughter? How about if the woman drinks alcohol or smokes cigarettes during the pregnancy, both of which are harmful to the yet unborn child. Is she now guilty of negligence? Assault? Causing bodily harm? Is it now illegal to keep pregnant women in prison, because that is depriving her child to the right to freedom, without due process?
No, Really. Bite me.
quote:
Rodent King wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
All right, it seems you people are falling back on the rape cases to stand on.
I have no opinion what so ever on the subject.(Which I suppose would make me pro choice by default, but I really don't care either way.)
The only reason I'm even reading this thread is for my own amusement.. you people are funny when you get all riled up.
But, from the outside looking in, it seems like you're the one "falling back".
quote:
Rodent King enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
I did say I was FOR abortions in the case of rape didn't I?
You left it ambiguous.
But we've stated already that a rape-only abortion system wouldn't work since any woman who wanted an abortion would just need to find the right man that she could turn things against.
quote:
Veruca Salt impressed everyone with:
Yes. If a woman wants an abortion badly enough, not a whole lot is going to stop her, legal & safe or not.
Yeah, and if people wanted illegal drugs badly enough, they'd get them as well. It doesn't mean we should make them legal.
quote:
ACES! Another post by Rodent King:
All right, it seems you people are falling back on the rape cases to stand on.I'm actually for abortion in the case of rape, but that doesn't change my views on the whole.
We are not 'Falling Back' on rape cases. Khyron is presenting a very logical arguement which does not involve rape. So is Karnaj. The only one to blantaly use rape as an example in the last page or so is Waisz.
If one person giving a point is 'Falling back', then you sure seem to be falling back on 'Adoption clinics' and how our moral fiber is degrading. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Ferret ]
