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MorbId had this to say about Knight Rider:
Icpunter your quote with one of my own:"Much of children's willingness to peresevere stems from ignorance of the alternatives."
Starving children, or those who have been left to fend for themselves, will act primarily based on instinct. And basic instinct is to survive, no matter the cost.
Yep, and a bad life is ALWAYS better than no life. We should nuke all poor countries because they don't live as well as we do.
What's that you say Mr. 'Respect-for-the-lives-of-others'? It's not our place to kill other people? But, but, we've got the power, so it's obviously all right for us to make these decisions. 
All right, that arguments been thrown aside.
Next please.
Sorry, I sometimes become an ass when I'm debating about stuff I believe in.
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So quoth Rodent King:
Is that honestly your only defense of the slaughtering of children?
I repeat: Zygotes are not babies.
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Rodent King wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Is that honestly your only defense of the slaughtering of children?Obviously us pro-life people care about their lives more than the people trying to kill them.
Ah, yes. Blanket statements ahoy!
First allow me to unambiguously state my position. I condone and support abortion to a point. There is a point, somewhere in fetal development, where the fetus can effectively be considered a human being. Anytime before that, however, it is not a person, and has no human rights. It is merely the POTENTIAL for human life. It can be a person. It is NOT YET a person.
So, what's this point, you ask? Well, that's a bit iffy. When does a person become a person? When can we consider the fetus a living entity instead of just potential? Just to establish a reference fram, I'd place the time somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 months. It may be sooner, may be later.
The point is this, though: before that, the fetus is not human, and has no right to life. After that, it is a human, and has all basic human rights, which, of course, includes the right to life.
That is my position.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
But since it's clear that our viewpoints here are fundamentally opposed, I'm not going to pursue it.
I will, however, pick at the holes in your sentimental example. The poor countries may have some chance of solving their problems and improving their situation.
But for some children, that simply is not the case. Their lives will be filled with neglect and abuse, and they'll probably end up continuing the vicious cycle. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: MorbId ]
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Rodent King had this to say about Punky Brewster:
Yep, and a bad life is ALWAYS better than no life. We should nuke all poor countries because they don't live as well as we do.What's that you say Mr. 'Respect-for-the-lives-of-others'? It's not our place to kill other people? But, but, we've got the power, so it's obviously all right for us to make these decisions.
All right, that arguments been thrown aside.
Next please.
Sorry, I sometimes become an ass when I'm debating about stuff I believe in.
See my previous post for more details, as pro-choice people don't go around murdering pro-lifers because they disagree with them. Pro-life is sometimes an oxymoron label.
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Karnaj had this to say about dark elf butts:
Ah, yes. Blanket statements ahoy!First allow me to unambiguously state my position. I condone and support abortion to a point. There is a point, somewhere in fetal development, where the fetus can effectively be considered a human being. Anytime before that, however, it is not a person, and has no human rights. It is merely the POTENTIAL for human life. It can be a person. It is NOT YET a person.
So, what's this point, you ask? Well, that's a bit iffy. When does a person become a person? When can we consider the fetus a living entity instead of just potential? Just to establish a reference fram, I'd place the time somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 months. It may be sooner, may be later.
The point is this, though: before that, the fetus is not human, and has no right to life. After that, it is a human, and has all basic human rights, which, of course, includes the right to life.
That is my position.
Hear, hear!
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Azrael Heavenblade Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Well, they certainly don't care about the lives of the physicians, nurses, and aides they kill in their bombings/shootings.
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How.... Karnaj.... uughhhhhh:
Ah, yes. Blanket statements ahoy!
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Azrael Heavenblade had this to say about Cuba:
Hear, hear!
....Make up your mind.
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Azrael Heavenblade had this to say about Knight Rider:
Well, they certainly don't care about the lives of the physicians, nurses, and aides they kill in their bombings/shootings.
He's right! Let's ban all things that drive nutcases to violence! Out with anti-abortionists! Ban religion! Destroy computer games and violent television because the 99% of people that can conduct peaceful protests are ruined by those that can't!
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Vise the Stompy had this to say about the Spice Girls:
I couldn't a make pro- or anti- judgment because my opinion varies greatly depending on the circumstances and the fact I am not one to make judgment on things I can never entirely comprhend.
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Rodent King had this to say about Tron:
He's right! Let's ban all things that drive nutcases to violence! Out with anti-abortionists! Ban religion! Destroy computer games and violent television because the 99% of people that can conduct peaceful protests are ruined by those that can't!
It's simpler just to eradicate humanity as a whole.
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Rodent King had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Is that honestly your only defense of the slaughtering of children?Obviously us pro-life people care about their lives more than the people trying to kill them.
A zygote is NOT a child. It could be, but it's not. Nor is a blastocyst, or an embryo, or a fetus. However, when it gets late in the term I feel abortion is wrong, sort of, too late. Then it's more like a baby than a group of dividing cells. I put this at point as after 20-24 weeks. (When the brain is mostly functional.) [edit.] [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]
All in all, I am pro-choice; I won't be bombing an abortion clinic anytime soon. But I believe that every other option should be exhausted before abortion is considered.
Rodent King: WTF? Where did I say that they were driven to it by video games, movies, or anything of the sort? They kill doctors who perform abortions out of some misguided notion of justice that they are killing a 'murderer', but they are committing murder themselves.
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Check out the big brain on Karnaj!
Ah, yes. Blanket statements ahoy!First allow me to unambiguously state my position. I condone and support abortion to a point. There is a point, somewhere in fetal development, where the fetus can effectively be considered a human being. Anytime before that, however, it is not a person, and has no human rights. It is merely the POTENTIAL for human life. It can be a person. It is NOT YET a person.
So, what's this point, you ask? Well, that's a bit iffy. When does a person become a person? When can we consider the fetus a living entity instead of just potential? Just to establish a reference fram, I'd place the time somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 months. It may be sooner, may be later.
The point is this, though: before that, the fetus is not human, and has no right to life. After that, it is a human, and has all basic human rights, which, of course, includes the right to life.
That is my position.
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Veruca Salt attempted to be funny by writing:
I repeat: Zygotes are not babies.
These two are essantilly the same, so I'll do them together:
Why do we prosecute people who've commited murder? Because they've stolen the potential for life that person had. You're arguing that destroying an embryo doesn't stop a human life, so you're saying that it should be completely legal for me to slip an abortion pill in someone's drink? It's not really human right? Just a bunch of cells I killed.
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MorbId Model 2000 was programmed to say:
I will, however, pick at the holes in your sentimental example. The poor countries may have some chance of solving their problems and improving their situation.But for some children, that simply is not the case. Their lives will be filled with neglect and abuse, and they'll probably end up continuing the vicious cycle.
Again, you're assuming that because we know better; that we know that they'll probably end up continuing the vicious cycle, that we should kill them.
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Azrael Heavenblade thought about the meaning of life:
Archon: You're linking quotes with virtually no relation. Some pro-life activists kill abortion doctors and blow up clinics, yet they care about whether or not a fetus is aborted. All I'm saying is that their beliefs are sometimes contradictory.Rodent King: WTF? Where did I say that they were driven to it by video games, movies, or anything of the sort? They kill doctors who perform abortions out of some misguided notion of justice that they are killing a 'murderer', but they are committing murder themselves.
Usually that's because they think they're doing the Lord's work. And you know, Jesus just can't be wrong. Nope. And they will be forgiven for killing because ah heck they killed sinners anyway, so Jesus is happy.
And that, my friends and other assorted people, is why a) I'm pro-choice, and b) I detest christianity. No good comes of that religion, and pro-lifers.
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
There were a few pictures that continue to stick in my mind. In one, a baby that was being operated on in the womb, had reaced out his tiny, unformed hand and grabbed the tool the doctor was using. In another, there was a picture of a child that was handicapped and had one arm missing. I forget the details, but this kid as a child had been the subject of a failed abortion. Not like they botched, but something came up, i forget what. There can be no arguing that they are a person.
As for when they become a person, how can you even say there is a defining line when you don't really want to define it?
Is it from the moment of conception, when the blueprint for the entire new person is formed and the cells begin to work twords this?
Is it at 4 weeks, when the brain is formed?
Is it by the end of the 4th week when almost all the childs organs have begun to form and circulation begins?
Is it between the 4th and 5th weeks when the babies sex becomes aparent?
Is it at 5 weeks when the brain devides into speciallised areas to deal with sensory input, memory, consiousness, learning, thinking, perception, and even feeling?
Is it near the end of the 5th week when the childs brainwaves are strong enough to be monitored?
Is it at 6 weeks when the child begins to move and learn reflex actions?
And that's just the embryonic stages. From here on it is considered a "fetus", a distinction which i fail to differentiate from "embryo".
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Rodent King had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Why do we prosecute people who've commited murder? Because they've stolen the potential for life that person had. You're arguing that destroying an embryo doesn't stop a human life, so you're saying that it should be completely legal for me to slip an abortion pill in someone's drink? It's not really human right? Just a bunch of cells I killed.
Murder isn't stopping a potential life, it's stopping a life that is already happening.
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Azrael Heavenblade said:
Rodent King: WTF? Where did I say that they were driven to it by video games, movies, or anything of the sort? They kill doctors who perform abortions out of some misguided notion of justice that they are killing a 'murderer', but they are committing murder themselves.
People kill other people over their beliefs, I don't condone them. I was being sarcastic about how the tiny percent of pro-lifers who blow up clinics seem to represent the majority of pro-lifers to you. The KKK is founded on Christian beliefs, does that mean that Christianity itself is evil?
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Ferret had this to say about John Romero:
Murder isn't stopping a potential life, it's stopping a life that is already happening.
The group of cells living inside the woman is alive.
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So quoth Rodent King:
Why do we prosecute people who've commited murder? Because they've stolen the potential for life that person had.
Funniest, most blatant "I pulled this out of my ass and made it up to try to make a point!" thing I've read all week. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Comrade Snoota ]
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We were all impressed when Rodent King wrote:
Yep, and a bad life is ALWAYS better than no life.
As a friend put it... "How do you tell your kid, 'Well sweetie, I know your friend Allison gets to have three well-rounded meals a day and gets to wear NEW clothes and that her parents had her college fund started as soon as she was born, but you're just fucked!'"
Heh. Also... kids are really mean. If you are not just born perfect, you are screwed. Maybe in high school you can get by through being really confident or really weird or showing off your tits, but when you are eight years old and labeled as uncool, it's like the end of the world. Even your other uncool friends will treat you like shit because they just want to go hang out with the cool kids. And that stuff stays with you. It's bad enough that I had to go through that, there's no way in hell I'm making someone else do it.
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Rodent King had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
The group of cells living inside the woman is alive.
Does that life has friends? Has it had experiences? Could it benefit society?
Cancer is a set of cells that is living inside the body. Do you want to let those live too?
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Azrael Heavenblade had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Archon: You're linking quotes with virtually no relation. Some pro-life activists kill abortion doctors and blow up clinics, yet they care about whether or not a fetus is aborted. All I'm saying is that their beliefs are sometimes contradictory.
Yes. SOME is very important. When you say a radical group of extremists discredit the philosophy as a whole you are being prejudiced.
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MadCat the 2nd had this to say about Tron:And that, my friends and other assorted people, is why a) I'm pro-choice, and b) I detest christianity. No good comes of that religion, and pro-lifers.
Same thing. And an informed person can NOT seriously say that "no good comes of that religion". It's just not true. Christians have contributed as much to society and technology as any other religous, political, racial, or otherwise devided group has.
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MadCat the 2nd had this to say about (_|_):
Usually that's because they think they're doing the Lord's work. And you know, Jesus just can't be wrong. Nope. And they will be forgiven for killing because ah heck they killed sinners anyway, so Jesus is happy.And that, my friends and other assorted people, is why a) I'm pro-choice, and b) I detest christianity. No good comes of that religion, and pro-lifers.
You know what? I'm not gonna get into Christianity with you now, so I'll sum it up with this:
Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
True Christians don't hurt other people.
Random quotes from Snoota that popped into his head because someone said Peacemaker!
The KKK was partly founded on Christian beliefs, yes, but mainly on racism. They believed that caucasians are a superior race, and that all 'lesser' races should be eliminated. But, all in all, I fail to see how the KKK fits in here.
The creation seminar guy made careful selection of pictures to prove his point. While the child losing an arm because of a stopped/botched abortion is horrible, I doubt the professor showed the teenage girl being put into a body bag after dying from complications from an illegal abortion, or the young lady of thirteen who couldn't live through the birth of her child because her parents denied her the right to an abortion. I am not for all abortions, just where it is vitally necessary to the life and health of the parent and possibly the child, if it is born. For instance, if a child was to be born with a fatal disease, would it not be more merciful to not allow it to be born and suffer before dying so soon, its life full of pain? I don't think it should be open to the person who says, "Well, I just don't want a child right now."
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Yes. SOME is very important. When you say a radical group of extremists discredit the philosophy as a whole you are being prejudiced.
Please tell me where I said that...I mentioned nowhere that all pro-lifers are rampant, raving murderers who routinely murder doctors. See above paragraphs for more info. All I'm saying is that these acts are going against their supposed position, 'their' meaning the people who kill the doctors, not the movement as a whole. You're taking this out of proportion to gain support for your point. [ 11-17-2002: Message edited by: Azrael Heavenblade ]
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Ferret had this to say about Knight Rider:
..Could it benefit society?..
...
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Verily, Rodent King doth proclaim:
The group of cells living inside the woman is alive.
So are carrots. BAN THE EATING OF CARROTS!
So are potatoes. BAN POTATOES!
Carrots and potatoes are a group of cells LIVING. Yet every day you take no notice in the fact that you devour hundreds of millions of these cells. Why? Is it because it can't think? A fetus, an embryo, a blastocyte or whatever, can't think. When it can start thinking, sure, then I'll say abortion is wrong, but before then, it's the woman's choice to make.
If you're pro-life, anti-choice, then the next time someone gets an abortion you feel is wrong, YOU take care of it. YOU're the one who's so concerned, YOU take the child, and give the adoption program a break. YOU raise him, YOU feed him, YOU clothe him, and the parents who couldn't or wouldn't do the rest, do without.
Now tell me how that is not fair.
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Veruca Salt thought about the meaning of life:
As a friend put it... "How do you tell your kid, 'Well sweetie, I know your friend Allison gets to have three well-rounded meals a day and gets to wear NEW clothes and that her parents had her college fund started as soon as she was born, but you're just fucked!'"
How do you tell your kid, 'Well sweetie, I know your friend Allison gets to have three well-rounded meals a day and gets to wear NEW clothes and that her parents had her college fund started as soon as she was born, but you might not ever get a shot at living a rewarding life, you wont have a cushy childhood, and when you grow up there is a small chance you will be emotionally scarred. So i'm gonna kill you!
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Veruca Salt had this to say about Tron:
As a friend put it... "How do you tell your kid, 'Well sweetie, I know your friend Allison gets to have three well-rounded meals a day and gets to wear NEW clothes and that her parents had her college fund started as soon as she was born, but you're just fucked!'"Let me continue that for you: You know sweetie, your life sucks so bad that I'm going to kill you because I'm a worse parent than Allison's. No, no, don't say anything. Me killing you is the best thing that could ever happen to you.
Heh. Also... kids are really mean. If you are not just born perfect, you are screwed. Maybe in high school you can get by through being really confident or really weird or showing off your tits, but when you are eight years old and labeled as uncool, it's like the end of the world. Even your other uncool friends will treat you like shit because they just want to go hang out with the cool kids. And that stuff stays with you. It's bad enough that I had to go through that, there's no way in hell I'm making someone else do it.
Yep, every day I hear about children hanging themselves because they're unpopular. Most leave notes telling their parent that they wish they'd been aborted and had missed out on all the crap they'd gone through.
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Rodent King stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Why do we prosecute people who've commited murder? Because they've stolen the potential for life that person had.
Wrong. We prosecute those who murder because the have taken life. Someone who was once alive is not. As it pertains to our discussion, before a certain time, the developing fetus is not alive, and therefore has no rights to life. It's being allowed to develop by the grace of the woman whose uterus it's in. There's a very big distinction there, which you seemed to conveneiently ignore.
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You're arguing that destroying an embryo doesn't stop a human life, so you're saying that it should be completely legal for me to slip an abortion pill in someone's drink? It's not really human right? Just a bunch of cells I killed.
Strawman. Your distortion of my argument is faux-clever, but your dull words actually raise an interesting point.
You would indeed be killing a bunch of cells, but that's not your desicion to make. That is the desicion of the woman and the woman alone (in most circumstances, that is. Regardless, it would NEVER be your desicion). You'd be sent to jail for attempting to poison the woman. So your actions would be morally reprhensible, just not the way you wanted.
Nice try, though. Next time you try to distort my arguments, however, I won't be so civil.
You know how many pregnancies are terminated by a woman's own body, some as late as nine or ten weeks? Over half of all of them. Most women don't even know they're pregnant. Are these women guilty of involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide?
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Khyron had this to say about Duck Tales:
When it can start thinking, sure, then I'll say abortion is wrong, but before then, it's the woman's choice to make.
It's the woman's choice to have sex; protected or unprotected, it's still her choice to take the risk. Once the life is made, she doesn't have the right to take it back.
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A sleep deprived Khyron stammered:
Here's my personal stance on the subject :If you're pro-life, anti-choice, then the next time someone gets an abortion you feel is wrong, YOU take care of it. YOU're the one who's so concerned, YOU take the child, and give the adoption program a break. YOU raise him, YOU feed him, YOU clothe him, and the parents who couldn't or wouldn't do the rest, do without.
Now tell me how that is not fair.
Now, any of you pro-life, anti-choice people want to take a stab at this one? Hmmm?
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Rodent King spewed forth this deniable truth:
Again, you're assuming that because we know better; that we know that they'll probably end up continuing the vicious cycle, that we should kill them.
Pretty much, though you're overlooking what I've said earlier. At the least, their lives will be miserable and with minimal chance of improvement or happiness. At worst, since so much of personality is environment dependent, those unhappy lives will just lead to more suffering.
I'm not saying that abortion is pleasant or a cure-all. But there are simply cases when it is the least cruel option.
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Rodent King stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
It's the woman's choice to have sex; protected or unprotected, it's still her choice to take the risk. Once the life is made, she doesn't have the right to take it back.
Why not? Because you say so?
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ACES! Another post by Karnaj:
You know how many pregnancies are terminated by a woman's own body, some as late as nine or ten weeks? Over half of all of them. Most women don't even know they're pregnant. Are these women guilty of involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide?
Right, I remember that from my AP Gov class from a while back. A variant on the body's natural mechanism of cells self-destructing if they're malfunctioning. Typically, for the potential pregnancies this happens to, the fetus would be deformed or unable to survive, so the woman's body eliminates it to start with.
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Karnaj thought about the meaning of life:
As it pertains to our discussion, before a certain time, the developing fetus is not alive
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You would indeed be killing a bunch of cells,
Waitasec, which is it? A group of cells is living tissue that can be killed? Or just a pre-human that's got no rights yet.
