But I was there when Malbi was pulling his shit, I told him to stop on more than one occasion, rather violently too. I didn't like the crap he pulled, I don't like the crap he tried to pull in this thread.
I lash out at people too. When I don't like what they're doing, I tell them. I can be rather violent in my presentation, as well.
The difference between us is that you just come off as wanting to pick fights. You come off as disagreeing with everything everyone says, and you spout out reasons why they shouldn't do what they do. Sometimes it's good (like with Malbi), but sometimes it's bad (like nearly every other time).
I know you probably don't give a damn what people think of you, but if you keep coming off as just being a rowdy who looks for any reason to flame and start fights, you lose credibility. Nobody would actually argue with you, all you'd be is a nagging little voice who bitches.
The point is, you've got to calm down. I know you said you wouldn't change, but change is inevitable. You're trying to take on everyone, and it isn't doing you any good. You probably couldn't give a damn about that, either, but it's true.
It's your nature to be aggressive, you've occasionally mentioned in chat that past instances in your life have caused you to become what you are today. I respect your nature, Toktuk, but what I don't respect is attacking everyone for everything.
Even the boldest and coldest of people don't want to make an enemy out of everybody. And the strongest and bravest don't take on everyone at once.
This is just advice, and that's all it can be construed as. Because frankly, Tok, I like you. You're a jolly soul who can roll and romp with the best of them. I like people like that.
What I don't want to see is you picking fights with everyone around you. Nobody likes a bully, Tok, because they don't just beat you up, they rob you of your dignity. Eventually, you'll sink even lower past a bully, until you're nothing more than a grouchy person who shows up to get in on the flames.
'N that's all I gots to say 'bout that.
"Why? Because I blasted him? It was the right thing to say at the time, amidst all the pity crap he was recieving."
You keep bringing up that it was "right" to do. Are you the one that determines what is "right" and "wrong" for everyone? You could have handled it better instead of a more violent statement.
"Arguing deals with being completely offensive. You can't be passive in an argument and hope to get anywhere. That's why Deth isn't good at arguing (Not that he wants to be, I'm sure), he's entirely too passive. Lyinar is much better than him at that. The problem comes when passive people try to argue with aggressive people like Lyinar and I. You get run over, and you get your feelings hurt. If that's the case, don't try to tangle with people like us."
You only get feelings hurt if you involve yourself emotionally.. look at me.. my feelings aren't hurt and I'm taking a less violent stand than you are. Do you think the way Peachis handled my comments were good arguement skills because they were crude, similar to your own?
"My presentation wasn't poor when I was arguing with Mabli, but it was when I was arguing with Lyinar, or even better, you?"
True.. you did back up many of the things you've said against Malbi.. a little too far on the offensive for my tastes, but it was atleast well founded. And why would that be better?
"What the hell, are you blind?"
I saw him hovering around the girls.. I don't often pay very close attention to the chat.. especially when Malbi is in their because the room would often go into an RP mode that I just couldn't get into. Same with Jraik.. He was obnoxious and constantly favored women over people that considered him a bit of a friend when he'd interract with guys.
"I will, I always have. Your certainly not anywhere near the point of making me change. I've cooled off lately because I was arguing entirely too much. You even said so yourself. But I get into one big argument and you instantly jump on me. Why aren't you all over anyone else for arguing? It's because you don't like me. Just admit it."
I did not instantly jump on you, did I? I didn't jump on you in Turlis' argument even though I criticized you behind yer back. I didn't want to get involved in something I wans't already mildly involved in. Would it make a difference if I said I don't like you? I tend to disagree with you.. and I do dislike many things you've said. Not necessarily you as a person because I've never talked to you unless they're was something boiling.
"In anycase, if I'm making life so miserable for you around here, get out. Go make your own message board, and comic, and website, and IRC room. And just leave. If you can't stand me, don't stay here." Who are you to stand in the way of my fun?
I never said I'd leave because of you.. that's just pretty damned pathetic. Why would I even consider that? Yer just another guy on the board often times using Troll like tactics in your argueing skills.
Argueing does not take pure agression. Assertiveness is often a better tool. I do not believe `Deth is passive in his ability to argue, rather he maintains a well thought out, clear statement. Toktuk on the other hand is rather polar to that. I do prefer Deth's standpoint as opposed to yours, Toktuk.
quote:
Originally posted by Toktuk:
Arguing deals with being completely offensive. You can't be passive in an argument and hope to get anywhere. That's why Deth isn't good at arguing (Not that he wants to be, I'm sure), he's entirely too passive. Lyinar is much better than him at that. The problem comes when passive people try to argue with aggressive people like Lyinar and I. You get run over, and you get your feelings hurt. If that's the case, don't try to tangle with people like us.
Just because some people are too thick-headed to argue any other way, doesn't make someone who gives his view in a debate rationally and thoughtfully any worse at it. If the only type of debate a person can handle is yelling and throwing insults and being offensive to the point that it pisses people off, then maybe that person should rethink how they debate.
There's a pretty think line between debate and bitching, which side of the line do YOU(as in everyone, and I don't want an answer, it's rhetorical) stand on?
-Tok
I do, however, believe there are times you could use a bit more tact in what you say. Nothing should be sugar-coated, but there are always different ways to get your point across just as affectively as being agressive. A few well-placed statements can sometimes go a lot longer.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
quote:
Originally posted by Toktuk:
I don't think we've argued in this thread. You and me, that is. I'm only defending myself because everyone seems so intent on trying to turn me into a bad guy. I refuse to sit around and let a mob try to bully me into silence because they don't like what I say.-Tok
Nobody's trying to turn you into the badguy, Tok. We don't want you to be silent. We want you to stop trying to make an enemy of everyone by attacking them. There's a difference between argueing a point and searching for a point to argue.
I always back up my statements with reasoning. Always. I never go around saying "you suck because I said so". Granted, my initial comments don't always involve explanations of why I come to the conclusion I do (Which I don't think I'm ever required to do anyway), but I always will give a reason for why I said something sooner or later.
So your first beef with me is that I don't give enough reasoning. I do, so your wrong.
The bully thing: I don't bully. I don't pick fights just to make people feel bad. I argue because of an opinion I feel. Perhaps you dislike the way I come on so hard and fast. That's my style. You put someone on the defensive quickly, it's hard for them to fight back. It gives you an advantage in the argument. I don't do it to make someone feel bad, I do it to get an edge. Because why argue if your not seeking to win? Argument = Conflict. The only reason why anyone would want to engage in conflict is to win. Everyone's free to walk away, I quickly drop an issue if you do.
So I'm not a bully either. Maybe you think I am, but that's not what I am. Just because I'm agressive does not mean I want to hurt someone. I don't take some sick thrill on picking fights with people who don't want to argue.
You guys are blowing this entirely out of proportion. I made one comment. One sentence. And look at how you've worked yourselves up over it. Quit finger pointing at me like I'm some bad guy when you know I'm not.
Again, I'm not going to sit around while the lot of you jump all over me. I'm not going to let you beat me up for what I do.
You know I don't argue all the time. Regardless of how much I enjoy debate, you know that's not what I do all the time. You know it and your forgetting it right now.
Stop.
Think about it.
Really, do you see me argue all day long? The most you guys see me is in IRC and what do I do the majority of the time I'm there? Goof off and talk about music. Really, get a grip, all of you. I'm not as bad as you try to make me out to be.
-Tok
So basically the MAIN arguement is going somewhere, and that place, is NOWHERE.
And there doesn't have to be a winner at *all* in an argument, and definitely not in a debate. It's an exchange of ideas. There doesn't have to be a resolution or changes or anything. It's just a way for people to get ideas and beliefs out.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
You're just aggressive, and you seem to talk about all this arguing like it's warfare. You sound like a military tactician the way you describe how you argue.
Then, you appear to accuse us without placing blame on yourself. In cases like these, no party is without blame.
But, I've got nothing more to add to this, so I'm going to suggest we talk about pizza.
I really want some right now. I wish I had a meaty pizza...pepperoni, bacon, and sausage. Delicious.
I ordered myself an ice cream/dessert maker from Avon. So I'll *have* my strawberry sherbet, oh yes I will 
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
You guys are asking me to tone it down, correct?
NO
That's the end of it. Why drag this out? Why even bother with me? I'm a hopeless lost cause.
Come on guys, give me a break. Do you honestly believe I'm such a terrible person? Really? Stop and think about how I am the majority of the time? It isn't like this. There isn't always some huge monumental arguement surrounding me. Stop trying to make things out like they are, because it just isn't true.
-Tok
quote:
Originally posted by Toktuk:
Let's just end this, shall we?You guys are asking me to tone it down, correct?
NO
That's the end of it. Why drag this out? Why even bother with me? I'm a hopeless lost cause.
Come on guys, give me a break. Do you honestly believe I'm such a terrible person? Really? Stop and think about how I am the majority of the time? It isn't like this. There isn't always some huge monumental arguement surrounding me. Stop trying to make things out like they are, because it just isn't true.
-Tok
At this point Toktuk.. with how often you bring up the subject of whether or not we believe you are a terrible person with how many times we've expressed that you are not... it seems like you want to play a victim or you want to believe we think you're a terrible person..
Sorry.. that's what it appears to be, in my eyes.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
Civility is what separates rowdy arguers (you) from debaters (Deth).
And most of the actual harassment was done in Private Messages... The majority of stuff in the actual Chat was just bothersome flirting...
However, you're abit more touchy, and seem to know everything about women, and how we feel on certain things, I guess it MUST have been sexual harassment... So in actuality, the most of the "juicy" stuff Lemmy could have known was second hand infomration...
Toktuk, I'm sorry you were born with some inherent stubborness, but it comes off as just being incredibly immature, you do realize that? Of course you do...
You don't look smart, you don't look cool, hell, you don't even look right.
You never actually prove anything to anyone. You just pour salt on wounds, add fuel to the fire, whatever...
So.... While you may see this as some "I'm a bad ass who don't change for nobody" Thing, or however you DO see it (I couldn't care less), most people just see it as immaturity (Or if they choose not to look at it that deeply, they see it as being an asshole, I opt for immaturity here)... Except for Poor Poor Pesco... But I'll talk to you about that later, Pesco.
quote:
Originally posted by Parcelan:
For the past few posts all we've asked is for you to calm down. We don't think you're a bad guy, Tok. The people I think are bad are the ones that do some truly disturbing and terrifying things.
I have been calming down, where are you going with this Parc? I don't think I've made a short jab at someone for a few pages now, so where are you trying to take this?
quote:
You're just aggressive, and you seem to talk about all this arguing like it's warfare. You sound like a military tactician the way you describe how you argue.
I don't understand how you can claim that you don't feel the same way when you argue so passionately against me. Never in my life have I seen so many people who argue so hard and then turn around and say they think it's something to not make a big deal about.
quote:
Then, you appear to accuse us without placing blame on yourself. In cases like these, no party is without blame.
Who's attack who here? I've got 4 or 5 people jumping me. What do you suggest I do? Really?
I don't feel like talking about pizza.
-Tok
quote:
Originally posted by Lashanna:
Except for Poor Poor Pesco... But I'll talk to you about that later, Pesco.
You know what, now I'm really pissed off. Pesco and I have been through more shit that I can care to imagine. How dare you question why he counts me a friend.
Who the fuck do you think you are? You think you can talk to Pesco and "break us up". And make him see the error of his ways by even bothering to call himself my best friend.
Fuck you, your not worth my time. Pesco and I have gone through more shit, still go through more shit, than you'll ever go through in a life time.
You have no idea, not even an inkling, of why Pesco and I are friends.
You know what, I'm at work right now, I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time if all that your going to do is act like you can go talk to my friends and make them "not be my friend no more". I can't even begin to tell you how futile your efforts will be.
-Tok
god you people whine too much
maybe whining should be a board rule.... half you gusy would be gone leaving me and Synjari here to rule all with Mort as my Champion and Drys as that Omnious figure that is really in charge that noone see :P
quote:
Originally posted by Toktuk:
You know what, now I'm really pissed off. Pesco and I have been through more shit that I can care to imagine. How dare you question why he counts me a friend.Who the fuck do you think you are? You think you can talk to Pesco and "break us up". And make him see the error of his ways by even bothering to call himself my best friend.
Fuck you, your not worth my time. Pesco and I have gone through more shit, still go through more shit, than you'll ever go through in a life time.
You have no idea, not even an inkling, of why Pesco and I are friends.
You know what, I'm at work right now, I don't feel like wasting anymore of my time if all that your going to do is act like you can go talk to my friends and make them "not be my friend no more". I can't even begin to tell you how futile your efforts will be.
-Tok
Your reaction shows how little you actually understood that statement... You're looking too far into things, Toktuk...
And that language right there just made me lose the majority of the respect I had for you as someone who could keep their cool.
EDIT: Addition:
As for you having gone through more shit with him than I'll go through in a life time... That's a pretty sad statement to make, considering you have no idea what I'm really like, where I've been, what I've been through...
But you do always do that... You, and a couple of others on this board do this "I've been through much, seen so many things... You have no idea...."
"I've looking Death straight in the face, I've walked through seven burning deserts, I've climbed the tallest mountains... " Yadyadyada...
Some of these things you say... Don't try and act like you and Pesco are old War buddies and you held his hand while they amputated his legs or anything... I don't care if you've both been to the brink of suicide with eachother... You make it sound like you two were crucified together...
So that brings it down to 2 things... Immaturity, and an oversized Ego...
But you dodged the rest of my post admirably.
[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Lashanna ]
quote:
Originally posted by Cadga the Confused Monkey:
WAAAAAAAAA!!god you people whine too much
maybe whining should be a board rule.... half you gusy would be gone leaving me and Synjari here to rule all with Mort as my Champion and Drys as that Omnious figure that is really in charge that noone see :P
It's funny how much you whine about how uptight we all are and about how much we whine, 
hehe i know :P im such a hypocrte arent i
Are you?
quote:
Originally posted by Parcelan:
Are you?
The plot thickens....
quote:
I don't agree with you, so you don't like me.
Tok, what you're saying here is that because I don't agree with you right now that I don't like you. I do like you, Tok. I consider you a good friend.
quote:
The only reason why anyone would want to engage in conflict is to win.
Sometimes there's no such thing as "winning". Two best friends get into a fight. One has been dealing with depression or whatever for awhile. So here they are, screaming and yelling at each other, and finally they both stalk off. Then one of them calls the other because they feel bad. They find out that their friend shot themself at midnight the night before, leaving a note that says something cryptic, like "This was just the last thread I had left. It's been cut." or whatever. Who's the winner then? Huh?
quote:
I'm only defending myself because everyone seems so intent on trying to turn me into a bad guy.
Nobody is trying to turn you into the bad guy.
quote:
Do you honestly believe I'm such a terrible person?
Nobody is saying that, Tok, so please, chill a little.
[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Kloie ]
one potato two potato three potato FOUR!
Fizban's Fireball Chili, Night of the Eye Cookies... Palanthas Twice Baked Potatoes...
(Yes, those are all real recipes, ^_^)
quote:
Originally posted by Savant:
WHY IS THIS THREAD GETTING MORE REPLIES THAN MINE? PLZGODIENOWKTHX
We don't love you, Savant :P
quote:
Originally posted by Pesco:
If it is posted publically... it is MADE our business.
Back on the subject, yes I did know about Malbi's flirting. He's even flirted with me on occasion and I went along with it (and if you know who my alt is, as he does, you can see why I didn't see a problem with it). I NEVER knew the flirting had escalated to the level it did until after the fact when people came to me and told me.
I would have responded to this sooner, but I lacked access to the internet for the last couple nights. It also gave me sometime to clear my head a bit as I'm an extremely subjective person to rationalize things in an objective manner most of the time.
That last part is probably the big reason I asked Malbi to seek council with some who wouldn't let their feelings cloud their judge like I usually do.
Steps down from her little soap box with the word "soap" misspelled.
In other news, it appears I have missweighed myself on my AD&D charactor sheet and have the body of Calista Flockhart! 
I'm an individual. Just like everyone else!
quote:
Originally posted by Cadga the Confused Monkey:
pikachu
Pika Pika?
quote:
Originally posted by Cadga the Confused Monkey:
pikachu
Argh! Kill it!
Opens fire towards the sound
The fact remains my actions and words HAVE caused harm, whether I meant it or not
and for that I am eternally sorry and wish that my words didnt seem to ring so hollow via this cold screen
I doubt many of you will believe my apology or even read this post but I make it nonetheless I wish to make amends if allowed I happen to deeply respect and like most of you and do not wish to sever my ties
and YES I was wrong to ever post this and Drysart can and has punished me as he sees fit as for other punishments I am willing to hear what I can do to redeem myself
My actions were wrong in IRC it is so easy to see this now and I am grateful that Aeadil has opened my eyes so I could look inside at my self and be appalled at what I have become...I cannot blame you for your hatred...Im not fond of what I have done either
That is all I can say...
I am wrong, can you bring yourself to allow me forgivenance?
