Anyone chime in if I miss anything in my hashing out what it is I'm seeing here. Smartass comments will be met in kind (if not with outright verbal venom), so watch yourself. This is fair warning, and a disclaimer. I'm not looking for a fight.
If I'm not misreading (and after that I could very well be; all the abbreviations, hyphenations, and parenthetical references start to make my eyes glaze over after a while), then what I'm seeing is that members of our police force over in Iraq started picking on, taking advantage of, violated, and outright tortured some of the prisoners under their charge.
The excuse apparently given (in references to statements made by those involved included in the cited document) was that they were following orders from MI (which I gather is military intelligence? someone correct me if I'm wrong). The offenses were as varied as mean acts (cold water, stepping on bare feet, kicking and generally "roughing up" prisoners) to some downright depraved stuff (threatened rape, much less raping someone with a broom handle or any of the other alleged means, is plain sick). Whether or not this was war or peacetime, whether or not these were POW's or civilians (if I'm not mistaken, these people fall under POW's; correct me if I'm wrong), etc, these sorts of acts are, by and large, unthinkable.
However.
I can't speak for the other nations of the world, and I hope that those of you from other countries will be honest with yourselves when I say this, as I am being honest with myself, but when interrogation of hostile prisoners occurs, sometimes the line drawn blurs a little. Cops can lie to you in interrogation to some extent; lead you on, make you think they know something they don't.
The key point, however, is that you may be softened up by light/sleep/time depravation, but the worst of it, the white hot focal point, occurs once. They build up to break you slowly, then in one white hot instant they lay it all down. You might get smacked, or stepped on, you might get cold water.
There's no point, however, in busting someone's jaw. Crippling their hands. Maiming them. There's certainly no point in sodomizing someone. Or raping someone. If you go that far, you've lost control. You've crossed the line between effective techniques (which do, unfortunately, sometimes have to hurt) and giving into the dark, bestial depravity that lurks in the hearts of everyone. And if you can't stop yourself, you no longer have the right to say you're in control.
Some people might argue that "they do it to one another, they expect it, that's the only way to get through to them" and that's a terrible, terrible argument. That argument never works, be it interrogation or politics. That's the sort of mentality that would lead us to nuke the middle east. Oh I know the thought of it makes your skin tingle, but the reality is very. fucking. serious. And as cool and as hip and as rednecky-trendy as it might be to be the first one to say it, I sincerely hope none of you fall into this category. In the heat of the moment, in the thick of the INSTANT, you can lose your mind a little. In combat, survival is survival no matter how you achieve it. But you cannot, in the comfort and safety you enjoy, make the decision to rape or torture someone, to violate them on some fundamental level, or to nuke them, and call yourself rational, ethical, to write it off as cooly necessary. I can almost guarantee you that if Bloodsage were here, he would tell you that if it was NECESSARY he'd back nuking someone, but I know he'd tell you that it's not a concept you toss around lightly. So to those of you who callously argue that torture and rape, like a-bombs and MIRV nukes, should be used if the benefit is even marginal, I hope you rethink your ethics.
So. Point one is that some of the things on those lists constitute "normal" interrogation procedures. Technically allowed? No. Torture? No. Take those elements separate from the depraved psychotic sexual acts. Some of it is a symptom of a bigger crime, but is in and of itself a crime of a completely different and less problematic degree.
As for the depraved individuals, they didn't think. However they get to the point of "just following orders" (one of the things military training tries to do is limit your individuality streaks and make you more pliable to being ordered around, as some bleeding heart idiot would eventually point out and ask in an oh-so-wonderful soundbite the same thing people have been asking about the military for years, whether or not we're creating unthinking killing machines), they didn't cover their asses. They were given an order to rustle these prisoners, which is almost a blank check in most cases (and thus the people issuing the blank check deserve a different scale of punishment unto themselves), and they let all the idiotic things they heard come into play. There's still people who post on THESE BOARDS, who have not been shot at by muslims, who haven't been out of their home county much less their home states or home country, who genuinely believe things like the story about the guy in the military who sewed up islamic people in hogskins is real! And worse there's people (in the earlier category of "nuke 'em all" and "they do it to each other, so we should do it too" logic) who think it's real and okay and the choice thing to do. You can imagine the sort of stuff you hear from pissed off, grousing infantry who've been there for hell and ever, in the sun, in the desert, with these people shooting at them or blowing them up.
Cooler heads, in other words, are frequently nonexistent, and thus can not prevail. If that sounds like I'm passing the buck, allow me to point out that it is far MORE important for people in those situations to be in control of themselves and their reasoning. If you're not actively engaged in combat at that moment, you should be thinking before you do anything.
In this, the perpetrators of these crimes clearly failed terribly. I'm sure it got to them. I'm sure they had frustrations and aggravations. I'm sure there were some people more "into it" than others. But they chose to participate. Ultimately they are responsible for their actions. The excuse "just following orders" or following friends who you know in your heart of hearts are doing something terribly wrong just because you have sheeplike mentality is wrong. Fundamentally wrong. It was wrong every other time a major atrocity was committed, from the Romans wiping out the Etruscans to Aztecs torturing and mutilating before murdering the captives of their enemies to the conquistadores wiping out the Aztecs to the Nazis with the Jews, Japanese with the Chinese, VC with American soldiers on up. You're a human being. You are ultimately responsible for yourself.
So point two: Those people involved in the most depraved acts were entirely responsible for their actions.
So. What happens to these perpetrators? Should they be held accountable to the Hague? Should they be held accountable to Iraqi justice? Should they be held accountable to American justice? Of course most of the more obnoxious members of the EC international community will either delight in saying they should be handed over to the Iraqis, or that they should be passed to the Hague courts.
Problem with the Iraqis is that the government has been slammed. The laws are questionable at the moment. Problem with the Hague is the problem we've always had with the Hague, plus it wasn't a UN operation so there's a question of jurisdiction. Do you want this handled promptly, or do you want to wait for an Iraqi government to be formed so it can petition the Hague and the UN to pressure the United States? Do you think that will end in satisfaction?
I guarantee you serving out terms in Leavenworth is not a "Club Fed" experience, and as I recall if you're in the army and break rules resulting in criminal charges, you still get sent to Leavenworth or somewhere equally...auspicious.
If it's vengeance you want, then by all means what you want is to leave these offenders in Iraq. If it's legalism you want to follow, then go with the Hague but don't think that the United States won't make it's own petitions and requests and such, both against members of the foreign community and on behalf of these offenders. If you want swift but equitable punishment, tailored to these citizens of these United States, then letting the Americans handle their own is quite effective. You see how our media harries the military about this sort of thing. These people won't be given the free ride the Catholic pedophile priests were given by the Church.
So point three: The offenders need be handled in American military courts.
And lastly, where do we go from here? Of all the troops stationed in Iraq, let's assume that say 75 of them are charged or were tangentially connected to these events affecting two, maybe three dozen victims (listed in that report). By and large there does not appear to be, per capita of troop-to-enemy-interaction, a large scale and systemic problem. Bad key players, yes, but the entire system isn't raw. That would be like saying because cops in LA are corrupt, all cops in the nation are evil bastards. Get your head on straight.
This is a wound the United States will bear for some time to come. Ultimately it is our wound to bear, not yours. For some members of the international community who either need something to bitch about or like whining about the United States in general this will be blood in the water. And for years we'll hear "Oh yeah? What about the Iraqi prisoners?" and we'll have to deal with that.
And some people on the home front will say this is indicative of how one administration or another handles things. NO administration handles all military issues perfectly. Clinton had the Black Hawk Down/Somalia thing, remember? Opening your mouth about "liberals" and "conservatives" is just wanking off your favorite political party. It's just doing a spin job.
All I ask, in my final point, is that you think about the ramifications of this beyond political party, beyond international agenda, beyond what you perceive to be dry wit or clever humor, and consider realistically where we go from here.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Falaanla Marr said:
Um, dude? Mass Media has been around for many many years -- you know those newspaper things? Mass Media. Same with magazines. Television, everything. Communicates to a mass audience, boom. Mass Media.If we hadn't heard about it through the mass media, it would have eventually got around, one way or another. While things like this MAY have happened in the past...news about them would have been at least somewhat wide spread. Soldiers would tell stories, something. people WOULD hear about it. Of course, mass media really started to get big in, if I remember right, the late 1800s, around 1880. I don't have my notes from my class with an exact date for you, but this was around the time when newspapers started to get big. I'm sure that if this was widespread in WW1, WW2, Vietnam War, Korean War, or any other small skirmishes, it would have been in newspapers and such.
So, yeah.
The whole point of the Geneva Conventions was to prevent things from happening, especially hearing how things went after the World Wars (Nazi Germany in particular was known for rather...extreme...methods of interrogative torture). So yeah, Falaanla's broadly right. It's not a matter of not having heard about things in the past.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Snoota thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
smartass comment
witty rejoinder
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
People living in the middle east may have towels on their heads, but they're still human beings just like you or I. Statements like "Violence is all they understand" are fundamentally asinine.
I wish that some conservatives on TV or radio would not try to defend what happened and just admit that it was terrible. This isn't a partisan issue they need to defend.
On the other side, some Democrats are calling insistently for Rumsfeld's resignation. I think it is way too early for that, and it should first be found out to what extent he may be to blame.
Like Jadeth said, the issue isn't partisan, but with the way things are this close to election, people make it partisan anyway.
I'd like to say, though, that while the US is going to have to take a lot of the international fallout for what happened to these prisoners, it is incumbent on ALL the countries that participated in the liberation, and those who have sent forces since, to ensure that this kind of behaviour is 'stomped on' and any perpertrators are roundly (and openly) punished. There's already enough Muslims in the Middle East (and elsewhere in the world) who hate not just the US but the entire Western world (yes, including France, Germany, and all those other countries that protested about the "invasion of Iraq") to not need to create more ill-will by not showing that we all are appalled by people that behave this way.
It wasn't just the Nazi hierachy (sp?) that was pursued for war-crimes against the Jews, but many of the senior officers running those camps, or the units responisble for many events. Those officers all tried the "but we were only following orders" path, and got soundly smacked around the head and told "there are some things you just. do. not. do!" Same thing here. Some orders are meant to be reported up the chain of command (or if the chain of command is blantantly promoting such atrocities, then reported to the world at large as should have happened with the Nazis IMHO), rather than blindly followed.
That said, I don't think it's something that The Hague (or whoever else would prosecute such war-crimes) needs to be involved in punishing those responsible here (unless the US willfully ignores what these folks did... and that sure don't seem like it's going to happen). Nor should the Iraqi government (although they could petition via the UN for some kind of reparations for the victims of these acts... dunno about what the response to that might be).
This is something that, as Deth said, needs to be handled by the US Military Justice system (overseen by the US Government, including President, Congress, and Senate).
The stain will be on the US Military's honor for some time, and it will be incumbent upon them as an organisation to expunge that stain. Time and effort will do that. Rubbing their noses in it wont help. Most folks in the US will feel the same as folks in France (or Germany, or wherever) about what happened. They'll be as horrified and ashamed as the rest. There's no need to be jumping up and down and saying "See? I told you the US and it's military are all thugs" (firstly because that is just plain untrue.) A small minority of individuals let their base instincts override their humanity. It happens from time to time. No one country is immune to having similar instances in their history.
These folks fucked up. They'll have to live with the stigma and face up to their punishment.
The right-wings (notably Mara and to a lesser degree Parce) won't listen to anything the left-wings say and eventually fall back on the "stupid liberal" argument at some point, and the left wings won't listen to anything the right-wings say and fall back on exhaggerated snide remarks about right wings.
Frankly I'm getting the feeling that people are becoming unable to form their own opinions and just go with whatever their party says. Yeah it might not be the case, but damn, the only one who made a decent argument in this thread was Snoota. Jens fucked around with this message on 05-08-2004 at 05:50 AM.
quote:
Jens had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Arguing politics on these forums has gotten so pointless.
One of the reasosn I don't participate in discussione like these anymore. The main reason.
People don't talk about the matter at hand anymore but instead attack directly the source, e.g. the newspaper or the person that posted the link/article/whatever.
IMHO our right wing members do that more often than our liberals, but that's probably because of the current situation and because I'm biased too.
No, there wasn't a standing order from Rumsfeld, written in the blood of arab babies, that anyone who did not meet the monthly quota of naked man-pyramids would be shot, but it should be investigated how many people actually went in and out of that prison, supposedly not noticing anything and weather there was any slight hinting going on towards the guards that this wouldn't be made a big deal of because those guys need to be buttered up for the interrogation anyway.
You starve them, you don't let them sleep, and yes sometimes you hurt them. That is the way things are done? Is it right? I don't feel I can make that call. Sometimes the ends do justify the means.
Not to mention that I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for someone who raped a 15 year old. I don't care that he was embraced.
Now all that being said, I feel that these people should be punished. They will be court martialed, they will probably be punished more harshly than they should be. But anyone who tries to use this as an attack on the administration is just showing how desperate the left is to try to find something to use in an attack.
I watched part of the hearings yesterday and Kennedy made a fool of himself. Why the hell is a Murder still in office anyway?
Hell McCain showed his true colors as well. He is pushing for some major favors from the left.
quote:
Check out the big brain on Noxhil!
I don't understand how the person(s) who attacked this source, saying it has a "liberal spin" can seriously type that. It's a U.S. Army report... as in the military wrote it, and you are going to say that the military, which is primarily composed of republicans, is releasing a report with a liberal spin? It's exceedingly annoying when the only argument you bring forth is that the report is biased, and while sometimes that is warranted, it is clearly not here.
I think it's a case of: "Never let the facts get in the way of a good arguement.."
Cant think who said it, but it seems relevant to some folks here for some reason when it comes to political discussions (especially those who appear not to have read almost 2 pages of comments, but still want to add their $0.02).
quote:
Azizza had this to say about Knight Rider:
The biggest mistake these guys made was letting pictures be taken.
While I do not condone actions like this, it sometimes happens. Interrogation of people like this is not sitting them down, giving them a cup of coffee and asking them where they are hiding their cash of AK47s and RPGs.You starve them, you don't let them sleep, and yes sometimes you hurt them. That is the way things are done? Is it right? I don't feel I can make that call. Sometimes the ends do justify the means.
Not to mention that I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for someone who raped a 15 year old. I don't care that he was embraced.Now all that being said, I feel that these people should be punished. They will be court martialed, they will probably be punished more harshly than they should be. But anyone who tries to use this as an attack on the administration is just showing how desperate the left is to try to find something to use in an attack.
I watched part of the hearings yesterday and Kennedy made a fool of himself. Why the hell is a Murder still in office anyway?
Hell McCain showed his true colors as well. He is pushing for some major favors from the left.
So does that mean you also can't say wheter what was done to Saddam's dissenters was right or not, when they were interrogated?
quote:
The propaganda machine of Jens's junta released this statement:
Arguing politics on these forums has gotten so pointless.The right-wings (notably Mara and to a lesser degree Parce) won't listen to anything the left-wings say and eventually fall back on the "stupid liberal" argument at some point, and the left wings won't listen to anything the right-wings say and fall back on exhaggerated snide remarks about right wings.
Frankly I'm getting the feeling that people are becoming unable to form their own opinions and just go with whatever their party says. Yeah it might not be the case, but damn, the only one who made a decent argument in this thread was Snoota.
Well, it's always been easier to attack the man rather than attack his position, so the "You're just a dumb liberal/conservative/hamster peddler" ad hominem would naturally flourish in the stead of actual debate.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
From the book of Azizza, chapter 3, verse 16:
The biggest mistake these guys made was letting pictures be taken.
While I do not condone actions like this, it sometimes happens. Interrogation of people like this is not sitting them down, giving them a cup of coffee and asking them where they are hiding their cash of AK47s and RPGs.You starve them, you don't let them sleep, and yes sometimes you hurt them. That is the way things are done? Is it right? I don't feel I can make that call. Sometimes the ends do justify the means.
Not to mention that I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for someone who raped a 15 year old. I don't care that he was embraced.Now all that being said, I feel that these people should be punished. They will be court martialed, they will probably be punished more harshly than they should be. But anyone who tries to use this as an attack on the administration is just showing how desperate the left is to try to find something to use in an attack.
I watched part of the hearings yesterday and Kennedy made a fool of himself. Why the hell is a Murder still in office anyway?
Hell McCain showed his true colors as well. He is pushing for some major favors from the left.
If this is the way things are done then why did you "liberate" the place in the first place? It would have been much easier to contract out your man-pyramid construction to Saddam. Claiming the moral high ground as a justification for war, then arguing that human rights abuses are 'the way things are done' doesn't quite work out.
I think McCain, being a former PoW himself, would take this rather personally. doubt it has much to do with 'favors from the left'.
That's the problem, the paradox of the situation. The interrogation stuff taken alone would not have been so bad. When it verges into torture, rape, and possible maiming (the phophorous chemicals from a chemical light, the rape of a guy with a chemical light or a broom handle, which in the states saw cops dismissed from their jobs and charged for it) of someone, even someone on the other side of a war, it's gone beyond the scope of interrogation.
Azizza, as I recall, has had some very strong feelings about rape and what should happen to rapists in the past. The fact that this happened to a group of Iraqi POW's on the other side of the world, I hope, wouldn't make it okay. Of course, Azizza also has strong feelings about the military and the necessity of going over to the Middle East. I'm sure you all can see where the revelation that these things were perpetrated by the military he loves could cause mixed feelings for him. Azizza, if nothing else, is passionate about what he believes. Sometimes he phrases things poorly, or speaks before thinking things through, sometimes he charges into a well laid logic trap. He did it here, attacking a political party when the bigger issue is larger than democrat or republican.
I'd like to think it's because of his conflicting thoughts on the matter, rather than some sort of "it's okay if the good guys do it" mentality.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
No one who is fighting that particular war should keep track of detainees, or prisoners. Get some third party to watch them. It's extremely difficult to look at someone who was on the opposing side, day after day, when they killed your brother, best friend, whole unit, etc. etc.
This, by the by, is not something I thought of myself.
It's from a friend of mine who was in the Army for about 15 years.
We have radically different political views (He's extremely conservative, I am very liberal), but this is something we agreed on. Gikk fucked around with this message on 05-08-2004 at 11:37 AM.
quote:
Falaanla Marr was trying to sing "I'm a little tea pot" but poured out:
Um, dude? Mass Media has been around for many many years -- you know those newspaper things? Mass Media. Same with magazines. Television, everything. Communicates to a mass audience, boom. Mass Media.If we hadn't heard about it through the mass media, it would have eventually got around, one way or another. While things like this MAY have happened in the past...news about them would have been at least somewhat wide spread. Soldiers would tell stories, something. people WOULD hear about it. Of course, mass media really started to get big in, if I remember right, the late 1800s, around 1880. I don't have my notes from my class with an exact date for you, but this was around the time when newspapers started to get big. I'm sure that if this was widespread in WW1, WW2, Vietnam War, Korean War, or any other small skirmishes, it would have been in newspapers and such.
So, yeah.
Reason it wasn't in the papers from the previous wars is because they didn't have the advent of the technology we have today, and two, there is so much more journalism around the actual war zone. Military justices from the Korean War and Vietnam War admitted to congress thatwhat happened here only scratched the surface of what happened in those conflicts. You didn't hear about it in those conflicts because journalists weren't as heavily involved in the field. This happened and has happened in war conflicts predating the civil war, just take it noted in context, times changed, the atrocitys get worse.
quote:
Mod stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
If this is the way things are done then why did you "liberate" the place in the first place? It would have been much easier to contract out your man-pyramid construction to Saddam. Claiming the moral high ground as a justification for war, then arguing that human rights abuses are 'the way things are done' doesn't quite work out.I think McCain, being a former PoW himself, would take this rather personally. doubt it has much to do with 'favors from the left'.
Agreed, wasn't our fallback reason for going into Iraq to remove Saddam from power so he couldnt torture his people? Now we are doing the same thing we just invaded another country for doing.
Oh, and didn't you know all conservatives here must must include "favors from the left, left-wing conspiracy, liberal-spindoctoring, or biased liberal source" in their posts? You can't be a conservative if you dont use the word 'liberal' at least once in every political post you make. Reynar fucked around with this message on 05-08-2004 at 11:50 AM.
However, a wrong thing is a wrong thing. No matter how you put the spin on it.
Human rights are the most important thing to me. It doesn't matter if they were the "bad guys". You just don't do the things that they did to those prisoners. There are ways to interrogate people without stooping to those lows. If they acted upon orders, the ones that made the order are guilty as well. In the military you have to do as you are told, but if you are told to do something like this, in my opinion it is your duty as a human to stand up and do all you can to stop it.
I also don't blame all the other people serving for the actions of a few.
Duty is extremely hard over there, and lines that you would never cross while home may seem blurry. They witness terrible things there, and just getting by on a daily basis has to be tough. I know Ryan is more than ready to come home, even where he is he has to go through a lot.
Even with all those factors considered, it doesn't change the difference between right and wrong.
I feel terrible for them, but they really have to be punished. As well as the Command.
They've done quite a few experiments in this area. The results are pretty disturbing. People conform to authority. They conform to the group. Even when it comes to inflicting pain.
quote:
Azizza had this to say about Optimus Prime:
I watched part of the hearings yesterday and Kennedy made a fool of himself. Why the hell is a Murder still in office anyway?
Hell McCain showed his true colors as well. He is pushing for some major favors from the left.
Yoy forgot to insult Hillary Clinton. She spoke in the hearings too.
quote:
"I had a good opinion of the Americans but since my time in prison, I've changed my mind. In Iraq we still have no freedom or democracy. They are so cruel to us."
Makes ya feel all warm and tingley on the inside
quote:
Pvednes had this to say about Captain Planet:
Just to point out something, to add to a small part of Deth's post, everyone everywhere is Just Like Us.(tm)People living in the middle east may have towels on their heads, but they're still human beings just like you or I. Statements like "Violence is all they understand" are fundamentally asinine.
You'd be wrong.
Think about it for a moment. To them, God is on their side. They can't be negotiated with; they already have everything they want and they won't compromise. They're not afraid of death; they've got a promised afterlife, so they'd be set even after the fact.
But you're right to a point. They don't understand violence, either. They don't understand anything. That's why they need to be eradicated before they can put their plots to use.
"They" being terrorists, not Arabs.
Anyway, I usually don't get into these threads because I know it is ultimately useless so I'll stop now. Niklas fucked around with this message on 05-08-2004 at 03:49 PM.
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Vecchio Hickory said:
Sadly this stuff happens quite often. Not just in war. It is pretty common for prison guards to abuse prisoners in their charge. Even here in the US.They've done quite a few experiments in this area. The results are pretty disturbing. People conform to authority. They conform to the group. Even when it comes to inflicting pain.
Yup if you look up Milgram's study on obedience, its pretty disturbing. I think, though I'm not certain the article is called, "The Perils of Obedience."
Got the prison and obedience articles confused. The prison article is by Zimbardo. Alek Saege fucked around with this message on 05-08-2004 at 04:34 PM.
quote:
Nae came out of the closet to say:
I also don't blame all the other people serving for the actions of a few.
Oh, don't get my point of view wrong. I don't blame the entire military for this incident. I still want to see all our troops accomplish their goals (whether I agree with the goals themselves is another matter), and I want to see them home safe and sound. Only those that committed these acts are responsible for them, as are their commanding officers, and as far up the chain of command as necessary in order to find who allowed those troops to be in a situation where these types of things could happen.
Rumsfeld takes personal responsibility. Good. It's refreshing that, for once, someone in the Bush administration admits fault for something. And Bush, to his credit, got as close to an apology as he ever will, by telling everyone that he told someone else he was sorry. Given all the other underhanded things they've done without apologies, the fact that they're all over this one gives a big clue as to how important this actually is.
But do I think the responsibility for this goes up to Bush? Well, just as much as he's responsible for everything else happening in Iraq. His horribly mismanaged invasion is turning out to be creating more problems than it solved ... the fundamentalist Islamic world is going to use this as a recruiting tool to whip more into an anti-American fervor. When all is said and done, we're possibly in worse shape with regard to international terrorism than we were before we went into Iraq. Drysart fucked around with this message on 05-08-2004 at 04:50 PM.
I honestly fear for our country.
Those people responsible have tarnished the reputation of our country. Not that it wasn't already tarnished... but this really sent us up shit creek.
I don't like our choices we have for the upcoming election, and I am afraid that things have become so fucked up that a change of hands might not be the best thing for us.
I am afraid that while we are in the middle of putting a new President in office, we will become target for more attacks.
Not that I think that Bush is that great, but I think the expected confusion that follows a changeover will weaken us.
Maybe I am just a pessimist.
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Skaw said:
Underlined for your convenience.
well maybe he was a rapist who knows any guilt the prisonors had or actions they might have taken that provoked or encuraged the treatment they got will never be publicly known becuse the press doenst care to tell that story
this whole thing should have been a minor footnote " today 5 soliders of the US military were courtmrtialed and recived sentences of x years for violating the civil rights of prisonors in thier care. X officers were relived of thier commisions for failing to prevent the actions of X soldiers."
pretty much in any military action there are a few people who get caught up in the feeling of absolute poweer they have over the opposing side and abuse it. its not unique to the US.
if those prisoners were detained terrorists ( who knows why they were prisoners) i mean jesus they like to blow up people espcialy military targets, who honestly gives a flying fook how badly they were debased as long as it wasnt real and prolonged tourture. (becuse thats moraly offensive regardless)
quote:
From the book of Nae, chapter 3, verse 16:
You guys know that I am a supporter of our troops. I am not Liberal or Conservative. I can't help but respect and hold a spot in my heart for our guys and gals in uniform.However, a wrong thing is a wrong thing. No matter how you put the spin on it.
Human rights are the most important thing to me. It doesn't matter if they were the "bad guys". You just don't do the things that they did to those prisoners. There are ways to interrogate people without stooping to those lows. If they acted upon orders, the ones that made the order are guilty as well. In the military you have to do as you are told, but if you are told to do something like this, in my opinion it is your duty as a human to stand up and do all you can to stop it.
I also don't blame all the other people serving for the actions of a few.
Duty is extremely hard over there, and lines that you would never cross while home may seem blurry. They witness terrible things there, and just getting by on a daily basis has to be tough. I know Ryan is more than ready to come home, even where he is he has to go through a lot.
Even with all those factors considered, it doesn't change the difference between right and wrong.
I feel terrible for them, but they really have to be punished. As well as the Command.
diadem fucked around with this message on 05-09-2004 at 09:43 AM.
Nae, this is the smartest post on the thread. Some of the others actully aggrovate me. Despite prior flame wars and the like, I am pretty much a stoic, sometimes past the point of rationality. It takes a lot for something, especialy on a message board, to dig under my skin. Many of the other posts managed to do that, and your responces and attitude are very heartening.
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diadem had this to say about Pirotess:
Nae, this is the smartest post on the thread. Some of the others actully aggrovate me. Despite prior flame wars and the like, I am pretty much a stoic, sometimes past the point of rationality. It takes a lot for something, especialy on a message board, to dig under my skin. Many of the other posts managed to do that, and your responces and attitude are very heartening.
Wow, thanks Diadem! 
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Falaanla Marr impressed everyone with:
Of course, mass media really started to get big in, if I remember right, the late 1800s, around 1880. I don't have my notes from my class with an exact date for you, but this was around the time when newspapers started to get big.
I thought it was earlier then that, they might not of been super huge, but i was under the impression that even before the civil war newspapers were quiet big
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Mog had this to say about the Spice Girls:
I thought it was earlier then that, they might not of been super huge, but i was under the impression that even before the civil war newspapers were quiet big
They were, but I believe this was the point they became a national force as opposed to local.
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Falaanla Marr said this about your mom:
They were, but I believe this was the point they became a national force as opposed to local.
ah ok, when we learned about the civilw ar, liek everyone and his granma seemed ot ahev started their own newspaper, but ya, didnt realize msot of these were probly realy local
Is it just me, or wouldn't it be better to just release them all at the same time?
Otherwise, this is going to dominate the media forever.
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Zair had this to say about dark elf butts:
New photo published of soldiers sicking attack dogs on Iraqi prisoners.Is it just me, or wouldn't it be better to just release them all at the same time?
Otherwise, this is going to dominate the media forever.
As bad as it is, releasing so many Iraqis now angry at the United States would be a very bad idea.
