quote:

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Verily, Liam doth proclaim:
I didn't exactly read the thread, nor am I up to date on the exact meaning of infidelity..

However, I personally wouldn't tolerate cheating.

I mean, how could you look at your loved one again if they had desires for other people? I'd personally find it maddening.

And depressing.

And a real bad situation. I'd probably just give up there, but I dunno.. I couldn't think of a better answer to that lil' problem.

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Would you take them back if it was a one time thing? Or do agree with what seems to be the general consensus and that once the trust is broken, that's pretty much it?

I've seen a lot of you guys with that opinon.

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Check out the big brain on Lyinar Ka`Bael!
Would you take them back if it was a one time thing? Or do agree with what seems to be the general consensus and that once the trust is broken, that's pretty much it?

I've seen a lot of you guys with that opinon.

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But the trust would be gone.. I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to regrow any relationship with this person. And what's stopping them from repeating themselves? I mean, obviously I'm not doing something right in the relationship if they feel the need to cheat on me. So I'd be under the impression that they're currently unhappy with me.

And I'd stop the relationship there.

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Nobody really understood why Liam wrote:

But the trust would be gone.. I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to regrow any relationship with this person. And what's stopping them from repeating themselves? I mean, obviously I'm not doing something right in the relationship if they feel the need to cheat on me. So I'd be under the impression that they're currently unhappy with me.

And I'd stop the relationship there.

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Do you think the problem lies with what you're doing, rather than an issue with them?

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The logic train ran off the tracks when Lyinar Ka`Bael said:
Do you think the problem lies with what you're doing, rather than an issue with them?

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I'd think it was a shared thing. And also the influence of whassisname who's gettin' into things he shouldn't.

It'd be my fault for not satisfying her needs.

It'd be her fault for lack of control, and the ability to cope.

But of course, this is just one example out of many.

I know for sure though, I'd be feeling mighty insecure.

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Liam obviously shouldn't have said:
I'd think it was a shared thing. And also the influence of whassisname who's gettin' into things he shouldn't.

It'd be my fault for not satisfying her needs.

It'd be her fault for lack of control, and the ability to cope.

But of course, this is just one example out of many.

I know for sure though, I'd be feeling mighty insecure.

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Do you think she has some responsibility to express her needs?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
Do you think she has some responsibility to express her needs?

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Yeah, good call. Forgot to mention that.

It's not my duty to be psychic, she should tell me what's on her mind, and we can discuss it. That's how relationships should work. (But we all know they generally don't go like that)

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Liam thought about the meaning of life:
Yeah, good call. Forgot to mention that.

It's not my duty to be psychic, she should tell me what's on her mind, and we can discuss it. That's how relationships should work. (But we all know they generally don't go like that)

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I do have to agree with that next to last sentiment

I know little of the legal benefits/drawbacks such as taxes to be honest. 2 things I do know are what turn me off about it though. 1, is that I feel it's an invasion into what is a relationship between 2 individuals (course, so is prostitution, in a sense, but I also think that should be legalized too...but that's neither here nor there). Ah look. Boy meets girl. They hit it off. They frolick through the forest. Share a kiss under the stars. Time passes. They are ready to make a committment to each other for the rest of their lives.

*poof, a little man wearing leiderhosen appears* STOP hold everything! Johnny law here. Sorry, you can't make that committment until you pay me a little somethin somethin. It's just to help us pay the costs of changing one of your names and make it publicly known that you two live with each other, that sort of thing.

Girl: But I could change my name for free normally...
Boy: And we could live together without getting married...

Johnny Law: Yes, well *makes sure the check is signed*, HEY LOOK A SUPERGNAT! *poof*

Reason 2: Then say they want a divorce. I despise all the legal manuevering needed to achieve one of these. And I'm not talking about the way stuff is divied up between the two. Simply to take it out of the records, that didn't even need to be there in the first place.

The only reason I know of that is good to be married is that if one of the spouses dies and there is no will, the stuff auto goes to the spouse. I'm not sure how often that happens...but I'm willing to bet more people would make wills if that "failsafe" wasn't there...

You mentioned taxes (I don't know if they go up or down...I thought up though), and health and life benefits. I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'll be honest, I haven't researched the topic, and am basing this opinion only on what I know, and that probably isn't a whole lot.

But it just seems totally rediculous to me to have to have a gov say "yah, you too can live in matrimony"

Oh thank you Mr. Gov! I kowtow to you in your generousity!

edit: spelling

[ 01-20-2003: Message edited by: Ragabash ]

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Suchii Model 2000 was programmed to say:
After being cheated on twice before, I now have a strict 'Cheat on me, and I will rip out your spine and use it to saw your head off' policy

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I have a "hold on I'll call my lawyer" policy when people start getting violent.

As for taxes, could you imagine the headaches if all those multiple married people file their taxes returns under Married, filing jointly?

I'm like 2000 miles from the woman I love and I can't even look at women here without mentally comparing them to her. And when I do, the woman I'm looking at just gets uglier and uglier to me.

You might say it means I'm whipped, but I disagree. It means that I care for her very much and feel she is the only person for me. No one else CAN compare.

I would never even consider cheating on her, much less actually do it.

And I'm quite certain she feels the same way.

I do not think it would ever happen. Therefore it's moot to consider what would happen afterwards. If I did, she'd probably kill me. If she did, it would break my heart and I would probably leave her and become some kind of hermit.

But it's sad to think of things like that. I know in my heart it will never happen.

Without legal marriage they wouldn't have to add the spouses to the agreement. If they were generous and allowed them, I'm sure they'd put in a clause about a limit on how many.

As far as taxes, yet again, they would not be legally married, and there would be no joint filing except for children.

I know the legal aspect of marriage has been around, but I see it as a first step in a direction I don't like. I don't see it all that much different from trying to say we need a license to have a child. The reason we agree to one and not the other is the fact that making marriage a legal thing makes certain things "easier", such as the points you brought up when deciding insurance and wills, and there's very little drawback. You can ignore the intrusion for that price. At what price will you ignore the next intrusion.

*puts on a crazed look* It's a conspiracy! The whole world is filled with conspiracies1!

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Bajah stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
You might say it means I'm whipped.

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They will. Welcome to the club. If you're happily involved in a relationship and haven't lost the romance in favor of cynical "realism" and you're male, you're whipped.

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This insanity brought to you by nem-x:
I think it's time for a random picture.

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HOW ABOUT YOU STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE THREAD IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD? THAT GOES FOR PARCELAN TOO.

This temper tantrum brought to you by Drysart. Carry on with the rest of the thread.

*tiptoes over to her hammock and hides from the Big Angry Board Owner*

[ 01-21-2003: Message edited by: Drysart ]

And I get the idea you think marriage has become expected. It really hasn't. There are a lot more people nowadays who never get married, and remain together. Take Goldie Hawn and Kirk Douglas.

Anyways, I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought I'd just throw in a random idea related to the topic.

Occasionally, I hear people jibbering about searching for "their soulmate" or "the one". Odds are everyone's heard it, but just for discussion's sake, it's the idea that there's this perfect match for everyone in the world and if they find each other, they will be unbelievably happy.

Occasionally, people find that other person. Sometimes they're in a relationship with someone they thought was the one. From a purely outsider standpoint, I'd have to say I wouldn't want to prevent anyone from finding their match.

However, dishonesty is one my most hated of human flaws, and I cannot tolerate it.

I suppose my overall point would be that it's better to divorce than cheat.

There we go

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Crezia wrote this stupid crap:
( And I damn well better not ever be able to, Batty. ;D )

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I hath been threatened! But honestly, I don't believe in any excuse being good enough to excuse cheating. So yes, hon, you won't ever be able to say. If(read as when) I do screw up, it'll be something else.

First of all, there are two parts to a relationship. The physical, and the mental/emotional.

As for the emotional part, most of you know about it allready. Though cheating may be a physical act, it's the damage it causes to the emotional part that's really at question here. Physical cheating creates emotional betrayal.

Other things can also cause emotional betrayal. Abuse, for example. Just what can cause it will sometimes depend upon the people involved.

A severe emotional betrayal, of any kind, isn't something that I would forgive.

A physical relationship can (and sometimes does) exist apart from an emotional one. For example, two people are deeply in love. Then, the man gets hurt, and can no longer have a physical relationship normally. While many couples would be wrecked by this, there are those where the emotional relationship is strong enough to survive without the physical.

Physical relationships can also be devoid of any real emotional relationship. Some open marrages are like this. The real emotional relationship is between the married couple, but the physical relationship is somewhat "detatched" from the emotional relationship, and can be carried over to others.

So: What's important here isn't what's going on physically, but emotionally. It's not physically cheating that's damaging, it's the emotional betrayal.

If it's a couple where it's trusted that the physical relationship is just between them (it's linked with the emotional), then I don't think cheating should be forgiven. Nor should similar betrayals, such as physical abuse. Instead, the betrayed person should end it right then and there.

How would I react? I honestly can't say, as I've never been in any kind of relationship like what we're talking about. I'm one of those lovely "detached" people I was talking about, but in a bad way. I wish I could have some kind of close emotional relationship, but I can't stand physical closeness. There might be the occasional daydream, but the idea of actually having a physical relationship (with all atendant activities) makes me physically ill. So, no SO for me, ever.

Why then my views? My grandfather (on my mother's side) is a two timing, womanizing bastard. He spent alot of time with other women, and left my mom with some messed up stuff in her head. Said messed up stuff may explain her first husband, who ran around with other women, drank, and abused her.

Blargh. I'm tired, I hope that made sense. It's 48 minutes after my bedtime, and I was allready short on sleep. Any comments/questions/rude remarks will have to be delt with tomorrow night, IF the thread is still open.

A woman that's being abused needs support. Talking to one that has been in her position and gotten out of it would be invaluable, as would an assurance that she would get adequate protection from the abuser - in exchange for holding charges against him.

Articles, information, books, whatever could also be published by these women to have been in the situation, to provide good examples to women that are afraid or reluctant to get themselves out of the situation. Show everyone that it's not acceptable, that you're not not likely to get away with it and that it won't just go away.

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Zaza had this to say about dark elf butts:
Alright, picking this thread back up. To return to the abuse issue, I think what is needed is an informative and assistive effort. Take the lid off the domestic abuse, inform that it's not "Family matters."

A woman that's being abused needs support. Talking to one that has been in her position and gotten out of it would be invaluable, as would an assurance that she would get adequate protection from the abuser - in exchange for holding charges against him.

Articles, information, books, whatever could also be published by these women to have been in the situation, to provide good examples to women that are afraid or reluctant to get themselves out of the situation. Show everyone that it's not acceptable, that you're not not likely to get away with it and that it won't just go away.

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Do you think it would be good in those sorts of books and articles and such to admit that their actions in staying were wrong? So it's coming from the women involved, and not an outside source?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael painfully thought these words up:
Do you think it would be good in those sorts of books and articles and such to admit that their actions in staying were wrong? So it's coming from the women involved, and not an outside source?

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Yes, but it should also include explanations of why a person might do such.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about Duck Tales:
Sort of explain how to get over the fear, places they can go for help, things to do to help their self-esteem perhaps?

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Nods. Pretty much what I had in mind.

Now, to turn the tables: What's your view on guilt, scorn and solutions in the matter?

If you're not talking to me enough in a relationship that you feel the need to go out and sleep with another guy, go and sleep with that other guy, and leave me the hell alone.

However, Infedelity is a fact of nature, really. It's been proven through various experiments that animals like birds, monkies, fish, etc.. most anything that mates is very non monagomous.

For instance; A female bird is choosing between two suitors. One has a nest where the young could be brought up safely, though not as "attractive" otherwise, the other is strong, can fly well, is a bit older, but doesn't have a nest.
She will choose the one with the nest, then sneak off and bang the other guy. Hedging her bets, so to speak.

Emotions and sentient thought aside, I think that there is, on some level or another, the same feeling for when a married person cheats. But not everyone applies to that, of course.

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Zaza's fortune cookie read:
Nods. Pretty much what I had in mind.

Now, to turn the tables: What's your view on guilt, scorn and solutions in the matter?

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I do believe that in some way they should be held responsible. But I think that could easily be made clear if they admitted in something like that article or book or whatnot that they made a mistake, and that part of their suffering was because of it.

I have to share Burger's attitude a lot in some things. I don't believe there's any excuse not to get out. I must admit I don't think very highly of those who choose to stay and take it.

My sister, for instance, is not hit by her boyfriend, but I heard him the other morning say to her that she was a bitch, she would always be a bitch, that she was worthless. My sister wasn't raised to take things like that. But she does. I love her, but she won't see this guy isn't good for her. She's left him before and she always comes back.

I've tried to take the attitude that she'll just need to learn the mistake on her own, but I've come to fear that my sister will never learn, and never want better for herself. So, while I love her, I don't think highly of her. I think she's being stupid.

And it's not even because she loves the guy. It's because of being with him for 13 years of all this. And it's because she's afraid to be alone. She's been with a man so long she can't survive without one now. Every time in these 13 years she's left him, she always left him for another guy.

So I have very little sympathy for those that choose to remain in that situation. I have little sympathy for those who aren't true to themselves, and don't truly view the person they're with, who make excuses for him (or her), or gloss over what he (or she) might do to them.

I do greatly support being informed, though. I like seeing women and men tell their tales and how they had the strength to get away from the person hurting them. I applaud their efforts, I just get irritated at how society puts them on these pedestals, when part of the blame was in their hands as well.

I think it fosters an attitude of irresponsibility, and not just in cases of abuse. There's a very large attitude of blaming other people or things when you fall short in the world these days. It makes me wish more people would take responsibility for their own actions.

But that's opening up a whole new can of worms

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Delphi Aegis was listening to Cher while typing:
I rather agree with most people here.

If you're not talking to me enough in a relationship that you feel the need to go out and sleep with another guy, go and sleep with that other guy, and leave me the hell alone.

However, Infedelity is a fact of nature, really. It's been proven through various experiments that animals like birds, monkies, fish, etc.. most anything that mates is very non monagomous.

For instance; A female bird is choosing between two suitors. One has a nest where the young could be brought up safely, though not as "attractive" otherwise, the other is strong, can fly well, is a bit older, but doesn't have a nest.
She will choose the one with the nest, then sneak off and bang the other guy. Hedging her bets, so to speak.

Emotions and sentient thought aside, I think that there is, on some level or another, the same feeling for when a married person cheats. But not everyone applies to that, of course.

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The difference between us and hamsters, though, is that whole free will thing.

I, for one, pride myself upon being a human being, with all the responsibilities for moral action that implies. Monkeys fling poo, too--do you advocate allowing that, as well?

That's not a true Sage post.

I want five paragraphs at least, canine!

Gotta get up at 0400.

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Bloodsage enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
The difference between us and hamsters, though, is that whole free will thing.

I, for one, pride myself upon being a human being, with all the responsibilities for moral action that implies. Monkeys fling poo, too--do you advocate allowing that, as well?

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Did you miss the part when I said "Emotions and sentient thought aside, I THINK that there is, on some level or another, the same feeling for when a married person cheats. But not everyone applies to that, of course.", or did you just choose to ignore it?

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How.... Bloodsage.... uughhhhhh:
Yeah, I'd love to dive into this thread, but my boss called me at lunch today and wants me on a plane to the States in the morning.

Gotta get up at 0400.

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I expect a five paragraph reply the first chance you get then

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Delphi Aegis enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Did you miss the part when I said "Emotions and sentient thought aside, I THINK that there is, on some level or another, the same feeling for when a married person cheats. But not everyone applies to that, of course.", or did you just choose to ignore it?

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Now now, be nice

This thread is going amazingly well and if you spoil it, I'll let Jania have you to play with

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Delphi Aegis had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Did you miss the part when I said "Emotions and sentient thought aside, I THINK that there is, on some level or another, the same feeling for when a married person cheats. But not everyone applies to that, of course.", or did you just choose to ignore it?

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Then what was the point of the other 90% of your post?

"Oh, look: monkeys do it, so I can, too," doesn't seem to be much of a rationale for anything. The very thing that makes us human is that we are responsible for our actions, and must adhere to a higher standard than, "I felt like it, so I did it."

Further, even in the animal kingdom, there are different patterns of learning and instinct. Take cheetahs and lions, for example. Cheetahs hunt purely by instinct--a cheetah cub encountering a porcupine for the first time ignores it instinctively as not being worth the trouble. Lions learn to hunt--a lion cub encountering a porcupine for the first time will probably learn the hard way that it's not very good prey.

That's why housecats bring you dead rodents: they think you're a doofus and are trying to teach you to hunt.

Anyway, animal analogies are worse than useless in a discussion like this, because they give the false impression that we, as human beings, are not responsible for the consequences of our actions. It's not just some people--all people are responsible for their actions, and pointing out that an urge exists does not excuse anyone who gives in irresponsibly.

Any other questions?

[ 01-21-2003: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

Cats really bring you think because they're trying to teach you to hunt? I've never heard that before

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Lyinar Ka`Bael wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
I'm not picking on you, Delphi, but I completely agree with Sage there. We have the choice to be irresponsible or responsible, and it's up to use to decide which way we want to live our lives.

Cats really bring you think because they're trying to teach you to hunt? I've never heard that before

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It's true!

That's how momma cats teach the cubs to hunt in the wild: they bring live prey and let the cubs play with it. That's why cat's play with animals, too--practice hunting skills.