It did spark my interest, though. What's your take on infidelity? Is it always okay? Is it always bad? Are there times it's allowable and times it's not?

A common viewpoint I see in shows like these is that people cheat because they're not getting something they need with the one person, be it sex, affection, obedience, etc. Do you think this is a valid reason? Do you think it's not?

Of course another that I've seen are those who are addicted to sex. Does this excuse infidelity then? Does it not excuse it?

In older times, the wife (and sometimes husband) should be expected to be cheated on. But we're not in the times of arranged marriages (at least not here in America) or loveless unions for the betterment of both parties to the degree they were back then.
Now more people marry for love, or at least that's what we've all been told.

What do you think the future will bring for infidelity? Do you think it will be clamped down on and society will come to disapprove of it, or do you think it will be allowed to flourish?

Let's try not to turn this into a flame war. I really am curious about it. I'm always seeing this sort of subject coming up, and it made me wonder that if it happens so much, and people barely blink an eye at it, has it become okay in our society?

It's times like this I wish we had a Discussion tag

I don't give a damn

If I'd have a g/f and she cheats on me because she can't get what she wants from me, hey, fine whatever. Just don't expect me not to do it either

My general point of view on things: dick em if you got em.

Why post an interesting topic right before I have to go to bed?

Anyway. . .

Dishonesty is a bad thing.

I eagerly await your interesting and informative viewpoint when you return, though

And so you think it's okay, Madcat? Would the situation change if it was your wife and not your girlfriend?

It's easy to say it's all bad or all okay, but unless the whole situation is known, there is no room to slap instant judgement on someone.

And about marrying for love, I think it happens now and again, but I think a lot of marriages are our of fear of being alone, or the idea of marriage and love will make it okay, or convience to both people.

And even if the marriage is out of love, sometimes people change, their needs and wants and desires change, and love can fade then.

And.. this is all IMO as per usual.

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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Lyinar Ka`Bael said:
Would the situation change if it was your wife and not your girlfriend?

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Yeah, because if she's your wife you can take her cheatin' ass to the cleaners.

As for cheating, I view it as an automatic "this relationship is done." No second chances, no amnesty, it's done. Fortunately, I've never been cheated on or cheated on anyone.

And do you feel the the prevalence of loveless unions is contributing to the rise of infidelity and the rise of the acceptance of it?

So there can be no infidelity before marriage, and if it's permitted by your spouse, it's no longer infidelity.

That said, infidelity is a Bad Thing. If i were ever to get married, and my wire were sleeping around, i would take a strong look at divorce.

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How.... Karnaj.... uughhhhhh:
Yeah, because if she's your wife you can take her cheatin' ass to the cleaners.

As for cheating, I view it as an automatic "this relationship is done." No second chances, no amnesty, it's done. Fortunately, I've never been cheated on or cheated on anyone.

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So with you it's a never okay thing. Why is that? And there are no situations ever that it would be okay to cheat?

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The Burger had this to say about dark elf butts:
well, the way i see it is infidelity is sleeping with someone other than your spouse without their permission.

So there can be no infidelity before marriage, and if it's permitted by your spouse, it's no longer infidelity.

That said, infidelity is a Bad Thing. If i were ever to get married, and my wire were sleeping around, i would take a strong look at divorce.

---

Okay, we'll expand a bit. Cheating in general, with a focus on infidelity since that's a much stronger promise than merely dating someone.

And if the spouse knows, it's okay? There's a prevalence of open marriages and open relationships developing in society today. Do you find those okay? Are you against them? Why?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about dark elf butts:
What circumstances do you think might be okay? Which do you think aren't okay?

And do you feel the the prevalence of loveless unions is contributing to the rise of infidelity and the rise of the acceptance of it?

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The first part, I can't reply really, I'd have to be in that situation, but if I ever was, I'd consider the reasons before packing up and leaving.

Second part, yes, I think having so many getting married for the wrong reasons contributes to infidelity. It's easier to cheat if you are not in love with your spouse.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael impressed everyone with:
Okay, we'll expand a bit. Cheating in general, with a focus on infidelity since that's a much stronger promise than merely dating someone.

And if the spouse knows, it's okay? There's a prevalence of open marriages and open relationships developing in society today. Do you find those okay? Are you against them? Why?

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No, there must be permission from the spouse, not just knowledge.

As for cheating in gerenal, it's much closer to the grey area, and thus seems harder to define. I would say that all cheating is bad, but some is worse than others. And that cheating can occur in any relationship, and that the severity of the breach of trust is dependant on the seriousness of the relationship. Meaning that cheating whilst in a one month old relationship is less severe than cheating during a 15 year marriage.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
So with you it's a never okay thing. Why is that? And there are no situations ever that it would be okay to cheat?

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Well, I look at it like this: if I am in a relationship, and my S.O. cheats, she wants out. It's like an ejector seat for the relationship. But it goes the same for me: if I want out, I could conceivably do the same thing and that would instantly terminate the relationship (though, I would go about ending the relationship with less...dickheaded means).

Even if my S.O. said "OMG IT WUZ MISTAEK" I'd still break it off, but in that case, it's more an ideological approach on my part. Even mistakes have consequences, and I would break it off on this principle. Also, I would expect no less from my S.O., were I to cheat.

Obviously, something like date rape doesn't count, because, well, dur.

As to whether or not a there ANY circumstances where cheating is OK, I can only say that there are none whatsoever in my experience that would be acceptable. There may be for other people, but not moi.

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Trent's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
The first part, I can't reply really, I'd have to be in that situation, but if I ever was, I'd consider the reasons before packing up and leaving.

Second part, yes, I think having so many getting married for the wrong reasons contributes to infidelity. It's easier to cheat if you are not in love with your spouse.

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Do you think society should be tougher on marriage? There was talk about having a second sort of marriage certificate in the past. It would require a time period and marriage counseling before marriage, and it was much harder to get divorced.

Or do you think something like that would just contribute even more to infidelity? The idea is to get people to be more careful about marriage by making it harder to get out of, but someone could go that route and then find they're not happy where they are. Would infidelity be okay then, since they would have a lot of trouble escaping from their mistake?

Or some of the other examples. Someone isn't happy in the relationship, so is it okay to cheat? Or if they're not getting everything they need? Does abuse make it appropriate to cheat? Or what about just plain dissatisfaction with the person or the relationship?

What do you think is the line that should not be crossed, if there is one?

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The Burger enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:

No, there must be permission from the spouse, not just knowledge.

As for cheating in gerenal, it's much closer to the grey area, and thus seems harder to define. I would say that all cheating is bad, but some is worse than others. And that cheating can occur in any relationship, and that the severity of the breach of trust is dependant on the seriousness of the relationship. Meaning that cheating whilst in a one month old relationship is less severe than cheating during a 15 year marriage.

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Okay, so we've established that you view spousal approval as a green light to cheating, right?

And why do you think cheating in a shorter relationship is less severe than a 15 year marriage? What if the marriage was one of those loveless unions that have been mentioned, and the relationship is a love match? Would it be worse on the person cheated on in the marriage still, or would the person cheated on in the one month relationship be pained more?

Not that I have any interest in being unfaithful. Amanda can count on my total fidelity, forever. Talk is cheap, but I can honestly say I mean it with every fiber of my body. There's not the slightest chance of me doing anything to jeopardize our relationship in that manner.

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Mightion Defensor had this to say about Pirotess:
I am not interested in anything else but a mutally monogamous relationship. I will not tolerate infidelity, or expect mine to be tolerated.

Not that I have any interest in being unfaithful. Amanda can count on my total fidelity, forever. Talk is cheap, but I can honestly say I mean it with every fiber of my body. There's not the slightest chance of me doing anything to jeopardize our relationship in that manner.

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How would you feel if Amanda did it? Would you forgive her? Or is it something you couldn't recover from?

As for open relationships, if that's what people want, all the power to them. Smacking down and going "BAD! NO!" isn't going to stop anything, just create more crime and less freedom.

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There was much rejoicing when Lyinar Ka`Bael said this:
Do you think society should be tougher on marriage? There was talk about having a second sort of marriage certificate in the past. It would require a time period and marriage counseling before marriage, and it was much harder to get divorced.

Or do you think something like that would just contribute even more to infidelity? The idea is to get people to be more careful about marriage by making it harder to get out of, but someone could go that route and then find they're not happy where they are. Would infidelity be okay then, since they would have a lot of trouble escaping from their mistake?

Or some of the other examples. Someone isn't happy in the relationship, so is it okay to cheat? Or if they're not getting everything they need? Does abuse make it appropriate to cheat? Or what about just plain dissatisfaction with the person or the relationship?

What do you think is the line that should not be crossed, if there is one?

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I don't think there is a line until the couple agrees on what the line is for them, once it is set, then still it maybe crossed. Then, I would think it depends on the person. Me? I'd still want to know why. I'd have to consider a lot of things, if I could rebuild the trust that was there or not, if I could forgive or not, if I could get past it, if I still love that person with the same depth of feeling as before the cheating.

As for making it harder to get out of a marriage, no, that shouldn't be done, it will do nothing to keep someone who is unhappy from cheating and just drag out the end of the marriage for even longer, making it more painful to both people.

If someone isn't happy or aren't getting what they need, they should try other things first, but sometimes people skip the talking, the counseling and the honesty with each other.

And abuse.. well, that is another animal to me, then the person should be gone out of the relationship regardless.

edit: to many commas!

[ 01-20-2003: Message edited by: Trent ]

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So quoth Zaza:
Cheating, if done without the approval of one's S.O., is for me the termination of the relationship. Sex in relationships is part of the loving and physical bond that makes a relationship special, and breaking the trust severs that bond.

As for open relationships, if that's what people want, all the power to them. Smacking down and going "BAD! NO!" isn't going to stop anything, just create more crime and less freedom.

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So there are never any circumstances you can see that make cheating okay?

And how do you feel personally on open relationships? Do you find them just as valid as an exclusive one? Do you find them lacking? Do you think it's okay because they're getting all that they need from numerous people, or do you think they should instead try to find those qualities in one person?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Okay, so we've established that you view spousal approval as a green light to cheating, right?

And why do you think cheating in a shorter relationship is less severe than a 15 year marriage? What if the marriage was one of those loveless unions that have been mentioned, and the relationship is a love match? Would it be worse on the person cheated on in the marriage still, or would the person cheated on in the one month relationship be pained more?

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sorry, a poor example, but if you look, i said it was based on the seriousness of the relationship, not the duration, but my example focused primarily on duration. However, i still see a long marriage as more imporntant and serious than a short "love" fling. There are many more elements to a marriage than just love; friendship, respect, mutual affection, familiarity, all can be integral parts of a "loveless" marriage, but the marriage is still in my eyes moer serious and important than a short fling between lovers.

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So quoth Lyinar Ka`Bael:
How would you feel if Amanda did it? Would you forgive her? Or is it something you couldn't recover from?

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See first and second sentences. I have enough troubles with insecurity. I doubt I would ever be able to get back with her, even if I did forgive her at some point.

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Trent said this about your mom:
I don't think there is a line until the couple agrees on what the line is for them, once it is set, then still it maybe crossed, and then, I would think it depends on the person, me, I'd still want to know why, I'd have to consider a lot of things, if I could rebuild the trust that was there or not, if I could forgive or not, if I could get past it, if I still love that person with the same depth of feeling as before the cheating.

As for making it harder to get out of a marriage, no, that shouldn't be done, it will do nothing to keep someone who is unhappy from cheating and just drag out the end of the marriage for even longer, making it more painful to both people.

If someone isn't happy or aren't getting what they need, they should try other things first, but sometimes people skip the talking, the counseling and the honesty with each other.

And abuse.. well, that is another animal to me, then the person should be gone out of the relationship regardless.

---

The flip side to harder divorce was that it was harder to get married as well. Do you think this would weed out some of those who might possibly cheat in a marriage that allowed no fault divorce?

How do you think society should view people that skip the talking and counseling and honesty? Should we accept them into the fold, or they be reviled? Or some moderate action?

Also, in an abuse case, whether physical or mental, do you think the abused has some measure of responsibility to get out of the relationship first and be free before they get with someone else, or do you think abuse releases them from any duty in that direction?

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The Burger had this to say about Duck Tales:
sorry, a poor example, but if you look, i said it was based on the seriousness of the relationship, not the duration, but my example focused primarily on duration. However, i still see a long marriage as more imporntant and serious than a short "love" fling. There are many more elements to a marriage than just love; friendship, respect, mutual affection, familiarity, all can be integral parts of a "loveless" marriage, but the marriage is still in my eyes moer serious and important than a short fling between lovers.

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Buf if you don't love the person, would you hurt less than someone cheated on by someone they do love? Or do you think the duration and history are more important than emotion in that case and it would still be worse on the person in the marriage?

And I forgot to bring this up earlier. Madcat raised an interesting point. If they cheat first, are you still held to not cheat, or does that release you from obligation not to cheat?

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There was much rejoicing when Cheese said this:
It's never okay. If you want to sleep around, don't get married/be in a commited relationship...duh.

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So when you review all possible circumstances, you can't find one that allows for cheating?

It's the fact that if you're having problems of some kind, whether they're the ones I listed or otherwise, and you don't talk to me, then we really can't talk about anything, then we really can't trust eachother, and we shouldn't even be together. Or that's how I see it.

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Mightion Defensor was listening to Cher while typing:
See first and second sentences. I have enough troubles with insecurity. I doubt I would ever be able to get back with her, even if I did forgive her at some point.

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Some people love someone so much they would forgive them anything. You don't believe you would find yourself in this situation? Or it's just something with your principles that even someone you loved more than anything else would have to be held to them?

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This insanity brought to you by Lyinar Ka`Bael:
Also, in an abuse case, whether physical or mental, do you think the abused has some measure of responsibility to get out of the relationship first and be free before they get with someone else, or do you think abuse releases them from any duty in that direction?

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No, it is not okay to cheat, it you're in an abusive relationship, you should GET OUT, not look for something to screw.

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This insanity brought to you by Lyinar Ka`Bael:
Some people love someone so much they would forgive them anything. You don't believe you would find yourself in this situation? Or it's just something with your principles that even someone you loved more than anything else would have to be held to them?

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You can forgive, but trust is harder to rebuild.

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How.... Lyinar Ka`Bael.... uughhhhhh:

So there are never any circumstances you can see that make cheating okay?

And how do you feel personally on open relationships? Do you find them just as valid as an exclusive one? Do you find them lacking? Do you think it's okay because they're getting all that they need from numerous people, or do you think they should instead try to find those qualities in one person?

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Well, it'd be under circumstances of force or great need. If she sleeps with a guy to save her brother's life, I'd be okay with it.

Open relationships are not for me. I wouldn't think it'd feel like a relationship... but I can't say it's lacking or anything, because well... I'm not in one, and has never been in one. Personally, I think it doesn't matter how open the relationship is, as long as all parts are playing by the same rules and being happy with it.

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This one time, at Lyinar Ka`Bael camp:
So when you review all possible circumstances, you can't find one that allows for cheating?

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"Allow for cheatings" is a rather strange combination of terms, don't you think?

Sounds like an oxymoron to me...

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Lyinar Ka`Bael was listening to Cher while typing:
So when you review all possible circumstances, you can't find one that allows for cheating?

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I've been cheated on, and cheated on the same person, years later. We stuck it out for a really long time, just to come to the realization that we weren't right for each other, and never would be, no matter what.

It hurted to cheat on someone.. it hurted to be cheated on as well. In the long run, it helped us both come to the realization to end the relationship. No harm, no foul. Neither of us were wrecked because of it.

I've also been involved in circumstances where it was discussed and agreed upon by both partners. It's strange. I don't think it would be something that I would do on a regular basis, but everyone involved had been friends for some time, and neither relationship suffered any harm.

Those are my experiences with it. I think the real problem with infidelity is the dishonesty, as opposed to the actual act.

*deposits her 2cp and walks out*

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Lyinar Ka`Bael obviously shouldn't have said:
The flip side to harder divorce was that it was harder to get married as well. Do you think this would weed out some of those who might possibly cheat in a marriage that allowed no fault divorce?

How do you think society should view people that skip the talking and counseling and honesty? Should we accept them into the fold, or they be reviled? Or some moderate action?

Also, in an abuse case, whether physical or mental, do you think the abused has some measure of responsibility to get out of the relationship first and be free before they get with someone else, or do you think abuse releases them from any duty in that direction?

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I think making it harder to get married would only stop a minimal amount of people, and would cause more to just live together rather than bother with the pre-marriage stuff.

I don't think society should judge anyone, they, as a whole have no idea the persons reasons or even of that person and it's my feeling, that most don't really care.

I think someone in an abuse case should get out by any means possible. If those means of escape are to someone else, while still in the bad situation or not, then, they are doing something to get out.

That is not the course of action I'd recommend, but, they are at least getting out.

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Suddar had this to say about dark elf butts:
If you cheat on me, it's probably over. It's not trust, it's not the fact that you hid it from me. It's not the fact that I was doing something wrong enough to drive you to somebody else. It's not the fact that he's "hot."

It's the fact that if you're having problems of some kind, whether they're the ones I listed or otherwise, and you don't talk to me, then we really can't talk about anything, then we really can't trust eachother, and we shouldn't even be together. Or that's how I see it.

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So you think a lot of the issues that lead to cheating can be solved by having a lot of communication in a relationship? Are there times when you think you couldn't talk it out openly and honestly and cheating is an option then?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Some people love someone so much they would forgive them anything. You don't believe you would find yourself in this situation? Or it's just something with your principles that even someone you loved more than anything else would have to be held to them?

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If she cheats on me, it would be an indication she didn't love me as much as I love her. I've seen so much pain, suffering, bad life choices made as a result of infidelity, that the thought of being unfaithful is UNTHINKABLE to me. Totally unthinkable.

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The Burger had this to say about Optimus Prime:
No, it is not okay to cheat, it you're in an abusive relationship, you should GET OUT, not look for something to screw.

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What if you're afraid? Or what if you have difficulty getting out? Do you think there's ever a time when abuse is involved that it's okay? Or do you think there's always a way to get out of it?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael impressed everyone with:

Buf if you don't love the person, would you hurt less than someone cheated on by someone they do love? Or do you think the duration and history are more important than emotion in that case and it would still be worse on the person in the marriage?

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OOh, so you're saying that the singular emothin of love is more powerful than respect, affection, and friendship combined? Because those exist in many loveless marriages. And i'm not saying that duration and history are what's important, i'm just saying that your notion that love is all that is betrayed by infidelity is a tad naive.

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Everyone wondered WTF when Zaza wrote:
Well, it'd be under circumstances of force or great need. If she sleeps with a guy to save her brother's life, I'd be okay with it.

Open relationships are not for me. I wouldn't think it'd feel like a relationship... but I can't say it's lacking or anything, because well... I'm not in one, and has never been in one. Personally, I think it doesn't matter how open the relationship is, as long as all parts are playing by the same rules and being happy with it.

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I guess that would come to down what you beleive constitutes happiness. Do you think people that are with numerous people are truly happy? Or do you think that the very fact they seek out so many means they are not content and whole themselves, and are still looking for their perfection?

The same can be asked for exclusive relationships as well.