quote:

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about dark elf butts:
Whether or not it was a cry for help, by the way, is irrelevant. I guarantee Bloodsage and Parcelan and pretty much anyone else around here who flames you doesn't have a degree in psychology or psychiatry (same thing, really, except one's a master's degree and the other is a doctorate). Their opinions are based on pop psychology; what they've heard, what they've read in magazines, maybe what they learned in one psychology class or another.

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I was, uh, under the impression that Sage had his Masters.. Maybe I got all those goddamned little letters mixed up.

quote:

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We were all impressed when Suddar Williams wrote:
You sound terribly bitter.

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I have my reasons.

But your right. I am, and I will continue to be where subjects like this are concerned.

Theres only one subject I take more seriously, and thats drunk driving.

I tell ya what BS, how about sympathy for the person and condemnation of the act? Condemnation of people, and condemnation of acts are two very different things, though some people don't realize it. You help the person get the help they need to solve the problem but at the same time you inform them what a dumb thing it was to do.

In fact, I do believe that was quite similar to your own post at the beginning of this delightfully argumentative thread. So, do I win the prize?

quote:

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Faeth Es'Braewyn wrote, obviously thinking too hard:

Not an attack on you Chibi, but this is flawed, because that is exactly what it does. Which you clarified by your parenthesis statement. You never only hurt yourself. Ever.

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Somewhat flawed, yah. I'll admit that, it's true enough. The reason people react to this kind of stuff is because it hurts them. But, she didn't set out to directly hurt him to get what she wanted. She didn't walk into a school and start shooting people to make them pay attention to her. What she did wasn't good, but it wasn't the worst.

You know, I used to be bitter for my reasons too. But over the past two years I've thought about it, and thought about what being bitter solves.

And I'm not really bitter anymore, even though I have my reasons--my excuses--to be so. You know, when you think about it, a lot of things aren't as hideous as you people who freak out and go holier-than-thou at the mention of suicide make them out to be [edit edit edit: oh my god, that wording was horrible, I'm terribly sorry, I don't mean to sound as though I'm flaming you, it's fixed now.]. Suicide is horrible, and I know that as well as anybody. But you know, it's nice if you can, instead of bitching them out, help them.

I'll tell you right now: when Lady D came online and told me what happened I was both scared and pissed. I was completely straight with her and I TOLD her to never, ever fucking do what she did ever again. And you know, being stern but sensitive, and being open to things that you just may not fully understand yet, helps immensely.

But I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't be posting this.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Suddar Williams ]

Don't presume to guarantee anything about me, fuckchop.

And if you have a problem with anything I've said, I suggest you a) address me directly and b) provide something other than your own internal musing as evidence to counter my reasoning.

You have a really annoying habit of arguing from a purely ad hominem basis. It's illogical, it's cheap, and it's insulting. Stop it.

Are you suddenly like Delphi, and have not only a lock on all the misery in the world, but the only personal experience relevant to any given situation?

In the future, why don't you confine your comments to issues where you have the first clue? If you have a point to make, do so, and provide your reasoning.

Don't forget, however, that you aren't some comic-book hero with superpowers that give you the ability to read others' minds, or psychoanalyze people you've never met and don't know the first thing about.

Logic is your friend, if you've the wit to use it. Emotional rambling and random personnal attacks masquerading as benevolence will get you in trouble every single time.

{edit: addressed the post, and cleaned up typos}

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

quote:

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Star Collective stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Uh oh, BS is in argue mode . I am skr3w3d but here goes anyways.

I tell ya what BS, how about sympathy for the person and condemnation of the act? Condemnation of people, and condemnation of acts are two very different things, though some people don't realize it. You help the person get the help they need to solve the problem but at the same time you inform them what a dumb thing it was to do.

In fact, I do believe that was quite similar to your own post at the beginning of this delightfully argumentative thread. So, do I win the prize?

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That's the fine line, indeed.

Here's a cookie!

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A sleep deprived D stammered:

I was, uh, under the impression that Sage had his Masters.. Maybe I got all those goddamned little letters mixed up.

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I have a Master's degree in English, and another in National Security and Strategic Studies. I'm in the last month of another in what amounts to airpower history and strategy.

He's saying I'm not a psychologist, so what I say doesn't count. Why what he says counts, if that's the rule, defies logic.

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Suddar Williams spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Yeah, you had posted about it awhile ago.

You know, I used to be bitter for my reasons too. But over the past two years I've thought about it, and thought about what being bitter solves.

And I'm not really bitter anymore, even though I have my reasons--my excuses--to be so. You know, when you think about it, a lot of things aren't as hideous as you people who freak out and go holier-than-thou at the mention of suicide. Suicide is horrible, and I know that as well as anybody. But you know, it's nice if you can, instead of bitching them out, help them.

I'll tell you right now: when Lady D came online and told me what happened I was both scared and pissed. I was completely straight with her and I TOLD her to never, ever fucking do what she did ever again. And you know, being stern but sensitive, and being open to things that you just may not fully understand yet, helps immensely.

But I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't be posting this.

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This was a perfectly reasonable responce Suddar. I've always liked ya around here, so I hold no anger to you disagreeing with my motivations. I'm rarely a bitter person, for the most part it's not my nature. My reasons for being so on certain subjects a few around here that I choose to bring them up about understand. In fact I'm pretty sure I pissed a few people off about getting into it at one time, and I'm sure a few like BM and some others there one night would rather I had not gotten into it at all.

I wear my heart on my sleeve, thats a well known fact around here. I have no porblem with being an emotional sponge for someone who needs it, or an ear at any rate. In fact I'm rather proud of the fact that a lot of people trust me enough to confide. Saying to a friend that " You feel like your life is crap, and I wanna die." Is completely different from broadcasting it. Finding a shoulder is different from finding an audience. Someone intent on this subject would A) Not talk about it before hand, and B) If caught before being able to complete the act, not broadcast the fact they tried and failed to a group of relative strangers. It's okay to vent, it's okay to ask for help. It is NOT okay to lay a tragedy at the masses feet.

People have asked me several times why I was still alive. Honestly at one point I nearly wasn't, but after that I adopted a stance similar to what 'Sage posted before. Living is the best revenge. My anger and resentment stem from various sources, mostly anonymous, and for the most part I intend to keep it that way.

quote:

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and D was all like:
So it uses [], not <>. Damnit. I kept messing it up.

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You can use <*hr*>, but it'll only show up if you edit your post. It'll give you a bold line.

Despite the fact that I'm 15, I understand.

I, admittedly, wouldn't have posted this if I were for some reason in Lady D's shoes. Honestly, I know the backlash that comes from most peoples' resentment towards the subject. And I don't claim to be any expert, or anything. Hell, not even close...I'm 15. But I don't know whether or not I'm naive anymore. Maybe I am and I just don't know it. I honestly couldn't tell you, and I don't think anybody else is really qualified to tell you either.

A lot of people have a lot of different opinions, and those opinions are often passionate with subjects like this. Every suicide--ever death, even?--is said to deeply effect at least 5 people. And those 5 people will all handle it differently--some like you, with bitterness and anger; some will, maybe, just bury whatever pain they feel and someday down the road just...crack, when they can't hold it in any longer, some will cope with it well, doing everything they stereotypically should to deal with the death of somebody close. Some find a happy medium.

I'll tell you right now, I certainly wasn't choice c.) or d.) For a really, really long time, I was angry, bitter, sad, resentful, full of angst, scorn, you name it and it was there. And for awhile I just didn't think. I was only angry. Terribly angry, terribly afraid. And also extremely bitter.

And things weren't falling into place. Things were constantly up in the air. Some days I'd be functional and most days I couldn't even get out of bed until 3pm because I just lacked the energy and motivation.

And you know, some days I considered it. Many days, I considered it. I knew it would hurt people, I knew all too well it would hurt people. But I considered it. And yeah, I thought about what people would think of me; what kind of funeral I'd have...what they'd say. It's all rather awkward to talk about now because it's quite morbid--but that's besides the point.

I had put a lot of thought into the whole thing. I figured if I was going to do it, I'd do it right the first time, like everybody says anybody who's really, really serious WOULD do. I mean, it's just not something you'd want to do wrong, for various reasons. Which I'm just not going into, and stuff. But you know, some people don't...think...and muse...and torture...over these things. Some people will pop 20 pills and seriously expect it to be enough to kill them. Some people will just act on the spur of the moment and do something stupid and dare I say half-wit. ("I'll jump from the roof of my three story home!") Some people, a mix of the two. You can't seriously say "well, you lived, so you're obviously not worth considering as somebody who is a real threat to yourself. I think you just want attention."

Because while most of the time it's true you can't always know.

...that was my semi-long rant of the evening...sorry for bad grammar, it's late and I'm sortakinda tired...

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Suddar Williams ]

Now, on the other hand, if you want to fight...well...we've all come to expect that of you.

But if you're just sniping at me to be an ass, back off.

But yeah.

quote:

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Sage was I talking to you? If you identify yourself with anyone I mention, well, I'm sorry. Maybe if you yourself recognize yourself someone as doing something wrong you should rethink how you act. Otherwise attacking me isn't really an issue. And in the past I've never seen you declare you have a degree in psychology. Just in a bunch of other things. Which, by the way, means that you're brilliant at those things, but don't have the knowledge and recognition to be psychoanalyzing people.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to fight...well...we've all come to expect that of you.

But if you're just sniping at me to be an ass, back off.

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Damn. I wonder where I got the idea you were talking about me? Hmmm.

Maybe it was here:

quote:

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Ja'Deth thought he was being clever by attacking others without reason, saying:
I guarantee Bloodsage and Parcelan and pretty much anyone else around here who flames you doesn't have a degree in psychology or psychiatry (same thing, really, except one's a master's degree and the other is a doctorate). Their opinions are based on pop psychology; what they've heard, what they've read in magazines, maybe what they learned in one psychology class or another.

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Maybe I'm wrong, though. Perhaps you didn't just tell her to ignore me because I don't know what I'm talking about.

Let's look at that for a minute, though. You say she should disregard what I say, since I don't have a degree in psychology or an M.D. in psychiatry. Yet you're dispensing advice.

Applying your logic, your advice is worthless, unless you have one of the aforementioned degrees. Produce it, loser.

Finally, where do you get off making such assumptions, then presuming to tell others to ignore what I say? On the basis of what? Your superior education? I don't think so. Your superior logic? All you've provided are illogical ad hominem arguments, so that can't be it. Your more relevant experience? How can you know that?

What, then?

It's pretty damn lame to deny your silliness so soon after perpetrating it. Even you ought to be more clever than that.

Least I admit I'm not a psychiatrist. And if someone does something stupid based on my advice (and just my advice, I never claim wisdom or brilliance or formal degrees) then I guess they and I will have to live with that.

In fact, I said that there was most likely no one of that persuasion on this board.

I believe you were the one that requested a cease-fire between us, Deth. You requested that I leave you out of all of my posts. I have been more than willing, and have been honoring that request. You don't seem too keen to uphold your end of the bargain, however.

If you'd like to bring me into these arguments against you, please come out and say so. Otherwise, grant me the same treatment I've granted you.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Star Collective ]

Interesting thought. Stupid, but interesting.

Further, you're also saying that it's okay to randomly attack others, simply because it's your opinion?

That would be the dumbest thing I've heard all day, except for your earlier nonsense.

Finally, you're hiding from the logic again. Scared? Why is it you can dismiss everyone else's opinions on the basis that they have no psychiatric training, yet your opinion magically remains valid?

Explain that one.

(ph34r my ub3r obstruction of flaming sk1llz)

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Star Collective ]

quote:

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Suddar Williams had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
I had put a lot of thought into the whole thing. I figured if I was going to do it, I'd do it right the first time, like everybody says anybody who's really, really serious WOULD do. I mean, it's just not something you'd want to do wrong, for various reasons. Which I'm just not going into, and stuff. But you know, some people don't...think...and muse...and torture...over these things. Some people will pop 20 pills and seriously expect it to be enough to kill them. Some people will just act on the spur of the moment and do something stupid and dare I say half-wit. ("I'll jump from the roof of my three story home!") Some people, a mix of the two. You can't seriously say "well, you lived, so you're obviously not worth considering as somebody who is a real threat to yourself. I think you just want attention."

Because while most of the time it's true you can't always know.

---

This is the main part where I disagree. And with an example.

If I lost one of my girls. I would be devistated, and would want to die. I don't have to theorize over it, I'm definite that is how I would feel. Hell I may even atempt it on spur of the moment without thinking about it because I want it that much, just like you said. There would be a part of me that knows this is stupid, petty, and selfish. A part that knows there is more to live for than there is to die for my own selfish reasons.

If this happened, your damn right I would seek out my friends and look for comfort and help. Key word is friends. Not everyone here is my friend. I don't say that in a mean way, it's just the truth. A lot of people couldn't help me in the way I needed help, or be the support I needed. They are a collection of the public and not my friends. If I was concidering it, I would look for a shoulder to cry on. If I had attempted it and been caught because I didn't think it through, but was still serious, I would not broadcast it. There is only one reason to do such a thing. And it doesn't take a special training to recognize it. It is for emotional manipulation only. Pride alone should keep you from doing it unless you are seeking sympathy. Even when I made my attempts as a young teen, I STILL recognized the fact that it would be wrong to broacast such a thing, and didn't.

Emotional manipulation has no excuses. From suicide broadcasts or otherwise.

*bzzzrrttiisssssshpooooo*

CHALASAUR!

quote:

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Suddar Williams was listening to Cher while typing:
Chalesm! I choose you!

*bzzzrrttiisssssshpooooo*

CHALASAUR!

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You can't talk--you're not a psychiatrist.

Only 'Deth can talk, for some reason.

quote:

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Faeth Es'Braewyn spewed forth this undeniable truth:
This is the main part where I disagree. And with an example.

If I lost one of my girls. I would be devistated, and would want to die. I don't have to theorize over it, I'm definite that is how I would feel. Hell I may even atempt it on spur of the moment without thinking about it because I want it that much, just like you said. There would be a part of me that knows this is stupid, petty, and selfish. A part that knows there is more to live for than there is to die for my own selfish reasons.

If this happened, your damn right I would seek out my friends and look for comfort and help. Key word is friends. Not everyone here is my friend. I don't say that in a mean way, it's just the truth. A lot of people couldn't help me in the way I needed help, or be the support I needed. They are a collection of the public and not my friends. If I was concidering it, I would look for a shoulder to cry on. If I had attempted it and been caught because I didn't think it through, but was still serious, I would not broadcast it. There is only one reason to do such a thing. And it doesn't take a special training to recognize it. It is for emotional manipulation only. Pride alone should keep you from doing it unless you are seeking sympathy. Even when I made my attempts as a young teen, I STILL recognized the fact that it would be wrong to broacast such a thing, and didn't.

Emotional manipulation has no excuses. From suicide broadcasts or otherwise.

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Hey, nobody says we have to agree...

Just so long as we both know where eachother is coming from, I guess? Something like that...we aren't going to change eachother's opinions from a few posts of calm discussion. Heh. It's just something to meditate and think on. For both of us.

I know I've done some pretty stupid things on the spur of the moment that SEEMED like good ideas at the time... I agree that it probably wasn't a good idea to post anything here at all, but sometimes, yeah, you slip up. Lady D hasn't been here as long as some of us, she may not've even known better...which is too bad, kinda.