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vertue had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Actually, I would think that we would only lose our free will if God chose to intervene every time we tried to do something that he didn't want us too.I'm not sure if there is really such a thing as total and complete free will anyway.
Intervention isn't necessary. The simple act of anyone knowing the future precludes free will.
So one must a) accept that there is no free will, b) accept that God is not omniscient, or c) invent convoluted "what if" scenarious to reconcile mutually exclusive concepts.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage wrote this stupid crap:
Yeah the Calvinists believed one's entry into Heaven was predetermined. They acted all goody-goody, not in hopes of influencing Fate, but as a way to show their neighbors that they were obviously of the chosen.
hehe thanks, that makes sense, sounds exactly like them too.
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Bloodsage had this to say about dark elf butts:
How can you really say you "chose" action A or action B, if the outcome is already known?
Doesn't necessarily mean I have no free will. I can do action A or action B from my own thinking. God just simply knows what I'm going to pick. Doesn't make me less free willed, in my view at least. Just simply means some guy sitting up in the clouds knows I'm going to drink orange juice instead of apple juice.
I could just be looking at it in a wrong viewpoint, though.
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Yeah the Calvinists believed one's entry into Heaven was predetermined. They acted all goody-goody, not in hopes of influencing Fate, but as a way to show their neighbors that they were obviously of the chosen.
I've had a few battles with Calvinists before. (It is the five-star Calvinists that believe that 10% crap BTW not the reformed) Despite their claim to be Christians, they still have a great deal of bitterness in them. If what they say is true, then what I do doesn't really matter, since my place has already been decided.
And Calvin was a total and complete savage. Even if he did have his occasional good points.
Did you know that he thought that Adam and Eve had no skin before the fall?
Archers Roxxors!
We're assuming alot just by saying he can. 
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Black Mage said:
We're assuming alot just by saying he can.
You're assuming a lot just by saying he exists.
You're assuming everything just by saying he exists
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Bloodsage spouted this undeniable truthIsn't the illusion of free will--letting you think you are choosing, when your future is actually predetermined--even more cruel than simply making you a slave? Like the Matrix--they were slaves, and didn't even know it.
That depends. Why would we be told that we have free will? Because we do choose what we do, even if what we choose is already known. And the situation is a little different then the matrix.
Archers Roxxors!
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Bloodsage had this to say about John Romero:
Isn't the illusion of free will--letting you think you are choosing, when your future is actually predetermined--even more cruel than simply making you a slave?
That's a really hard question to answer... I doubt I'll really have an answer until I die and meet the guy myself.
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Maradön? had this to say about pies:
You're assuming a lot just by saying he exists.You're assuming everything just by saying he exists
You're assuming a lot just by saying this board exists, too.
It's just a random sequence of 0s and 1s, y'know. 
It doesn't have a physical manifestation unless you would use the magnetic form on Drysart's server, but that's indeed a great deal different than the board we all know and love.
Conclusion:Have faith it exists because you can see it. Actually, I don't think this post had a point.
Tries to fish his post out of the ravine.
Yes, that's right, hot live sex!quote:
Waisztarroz got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Actually, I don't think this post had a point.
I certainly couldn't find one.
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Maradon? spouted forth this undeniable amadochianichnavYou're assuming a lot just by saying he exists.
You're assuming everything just by saying he exists
I'm assuming that what I believe about God is true, yes.
But the evidence (for me) that God exists is a little to much in favor of for me to call it an assumption. Either that or I'm insane or delusional, along with my father and many other people that I have met. Or their all lying and I'm still insane.
Archers Roxxors!
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This insanity brought to you by Maradön?:
I certainly couldn't find one.
It's a struggle to keep my eyes open right now. Too little caffeine, too much Dickens.
Not a good combination. 
Yes, that's right, hot live sex!quote:
vertue had this to say about Duck Tales:
I'm assuming that what I believe about God is true, yes.But the evidence (for me) that God exists is a little to much in favor of for me to call it an assumption. Either that or I'm insane or delusional, along with my father and many other people that I have met. Or their all lying and I'm still insane.
I don't think your insane, the people who don't believe in any religion or god is in the severe minority globally, maybe we're insane.
No your not insane if you are an Athiest or Agnostic, I used to be one myself a long time ago, before I became a Christian.
Archers Roxxors!
And Sage, we still have free will. Look at it this way...
Kag boots up his computer, he has to choose whether or not he wants to play DS or CS. God knows what he is going to choose, but is not in Kag's face saying "CHOOSE DS YOU ASSHOLE!" Instead, Kag has the choice of what he wants to do. God is not predetermining what you're going to do, he just knows what you're going to do. [ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: The Otaku Penguin ]
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ACES! Another post by The Otaku Penguin:
Mara, that's why we call it Faith =pAnd Sage, we still have free will. Look at it this way...
Kag boots up his computer, he has to choose whether or not he wants to play DS or CS. God knows what he is going to choose, but is not in Kag's face saying "CHOOSE DS YOU ASSHOLE!" Instead, Kag has the choice of what he wants to do. God is not predetermining what you're going to do, he just knows what you're going to do.
So if he knew what Adam was going to do, why give him the apple and punish us?
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So if he knew what Adam was going to do, why give him the apple and punish us?
Because you chose the apple too.
And there is another option besides punishment. I find it very hard to believe that someone who was once a Christian would not know this.
Archers Roxxors!
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Emil's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
So if he knew what Adam was going to do, why give him the apple and punish us?
What she said [ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: The Otaku Penguin ]
Archers Roxxors!
Archers Roxxors!
Archers Roxxors!
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Daemon_Reaper had this to say about John Romero:
I have a question, does it say in the cathlioc bible say taht god said he would not interfier in the world and with humans?
He gave us free will. So yes.
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I have a question, does it say in the cathlioc bible say taht god said he would not interfier in the world and with humans?
No, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't. The Catholic Bible is almost the same as the Protestant bible, so if the Protestant bible says that he will, then so does the Gatholic bible.
That is one of the reasons that I think that Absolute Free Will is not a realistic possiblity.
Archers Roxxors!
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vertue's fortune cookie read:
Because you chose the apple too.And there is another option besides punishment. I find it very hard to believe that someone who was once a Christian would not know this.
But why put the apple there in the first place, pain, suffering, hell, for what? so some entity can feel loved? Sorry, I get a bit passionate about it..
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The Otaku Penguin spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Mara, that's why we call it Faith =p
You call it faith, I call it fear.
I do believe in a god. I believe in the type of god that, to me seems logically the most probable to exist. I find the "Giant invisible father figure" notion rediculous.
Einstien once said;
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."
I am not an aetheist, but the existing organized religions of the world strike me as rediculously oversimplified ways of viewing the workings of the universe. Views that are often skewed by outside sources for personal gain.
I don't believe any organized faith is wrong, only that they're almost always misinterpreted and underdeveloped.
But anyway, that's my two cents. You're free to believe what you want and I'm not one to pass judgement on people because of thier beliefs. [ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Maradön? ]
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The Otaku Penguin wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Emil. Once again, some questions can only be answered one way, "Have faith in god and his plan, he did it for a reason."
I think of it this way, if God truly loved us, he would want us to be just like him, we would all be God, we would all be perfect, we would all be omni-potent.
In human relationships for the most part, and we are in His image. God is our parent, he created us, we are his children. The best parents I have seen are the ones who want their children to surpass even their achievements.
I'm only 30, but what I have seen so far is when you leave home, you still love your family and are very close, but you still need your friends. True friends don't pretend with each other, they don't have to play a role. If God is my Father, I think he has failed, and if he is my friend, then I don't trust him.
My 2 cents.
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But why put the apple there in the first place, pain, suffering, hell, for what? so some entity can feel loved? Sorry, I get a bit passionate about it..
I'm sure that if you are an athiest then there is a fair chance that you have heard this before, but ah well.
First of all, I would refrase the statement if I were you. I wouldn't say apple, but rather free will. Why would God give us the Will to choose whether to obey him or not? Because he doesn't want puppets on a string. Which would you rather have, a Barbie Doll, or a real Daughter? The Barbie Doll is a lot less risk. But having a Daughter who can love you back is a lot more rewarding.
What is the point of getting a Dog, when you know that at some point he will disobey you and have to be punished in some way. Granted Gods Punishment is much harsher, but you have to remember, God sees things from a Spiritual plane as well as a Physical Plane, and We only see it from the Physical Plane.
And, to quote Montaigne, "Death is Freedom"
God created us because he is a creative being. Who is it who created the Niagra falls, or the Moon and the sun? Who is it who thought of Sunsets on the beaches? God did, of course.
And God has the same longing that all of us do, indeed I think that we Got it from him. I think that God longs to be loved, and longs to love.
And as for hell? This is much harder to deal with. I do not think that it is as much suffering and pain as others do.
Hell is a Tournakit, the last service that God will give a man that refuses to take anything else, so that his soul does not bleed for all eternity-C.S. Lewis Paraphrased
I do not completely understand this, but I think that I get some of it.
Archers Roxxors!
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent The Otaku Penguin said:
He gave us free will. So yes.
thx
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The Otaku Penguin painfully thought these words up:
I don't think I totally understand what you're saying. Please elaborate.
I'm saying - and Einstien as well - that, by nature, Man is finite in every respect. God would be infinite in every respect.
God would be nothing like man in nature. The Bible describes god as Omnipresent - a single mind can not be omnipresent or even multipresent. The Bible describes god as omnipotent. Would an omnipotent entity be capable of human-like thought? Thoughts corrupt and power corrupts them.
It just doesn't make sense to me to think of God as a being that thinks and acts like a person. [ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: Maradön? ]
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I'm saying - and Einstien as well - that, by nature, Man is finite in every respect. God would be infinite in every respect.&&&&&& That would be correct. God is Infinite in every respect. Now, what exactly infinite means, is not as easy to discover.
God would be nothing like man in nature. The Bible describes god as Omnipresent - a single mind can not be omnipresent or even multipresent. The Bible describes god as omnipotent. Would an omnipotent entity be capable of human-like thought? Thoughts corrupt and power corrupts them.
&&&&&&God is not like man. That does not mean that man cannot be somewhat like God. It is true that Man cannot be any of the three Omnis, but we do have the ability to reason and use logic. And we do have emotions and understand them. It is in this respect, in which our reason and emotions are well mixed, that I think that we can be like God.
It just doesn't make sense to me to think of God as a being that thinks and acts like a person.
&&&&&&&If God is truelly Impotent and Omniscient, then he could think and act like a person if he wanted to or if it served his purposes.
Archers Roxxors!
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Check out the big brain on Black Mage!
The Bible says that God created man in his image, too.
Not to suggest that I believe the Bible is at all a reliable source of information, but what's "image" to something with no physical form?
What's an "image" to something that exists only as a spiritual entity?
Would "image" have anything to do with the lump of meat we reside in, or would it make more sense for "image" to be in the way we think of our own volition, create and innovate and feel?
Which is more like the "image" of a purely spiritual entity?
quote:[/QUOTE]
vertue enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
[QUOTE]&&&&&&&If God is truelly Impotent and Omniscient, then he could think and act like a person if he wanted to or if it served his purposes.
Well technically speaking he did become a man, in Jesus Christ if you believe in the Trinity Doctrine. That was God's way of connecting with the people, not that I belive mind you, but I can argue both sides of the ball on this one
