Archers Roxxors!
While the term "free will" is used, the explanation essentially negates its exercise.
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He thus holds complete dominion and control over our future free actions, as well as over those of a necessary character.
Dominion and control do not go with free actions.
And what of the lovely idea that God knows how we would act in any given circumstance, then creates the circumstance in which we would choose the outcome he desires? That's not exactly free will, is it?
You've made my point, dude.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
If it's an article of faith for you, then say so and don't try to justify it.
It's when people try to pass faith of as logic where problems arise. 
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage thought about the meaning of life:
Wow, what a witty retort!How so?
How can anyone do what they want if the results are known in advance, and there is 0% chance of selecting anything except the foreseen action?
Knowing the future constrains the future.
Has the thought ever occurred to you that just God is outside of time? Do you really think God is restrained by something of his own creation? Pssshaw.
Just because He knows that you'll make bad choices doesn't mean that you didn't choose to make them.
It's kinda like traveling back in time to your father's wedding day and trying to convince him to not marry your mother because of something that will happen because of her. Assuming they actually love eachother, unlike most marriages today, this will be a tremendous task. Not to mention he'll think you're lying.
It's the same way with human beings.
God: "X is bad."
Person: "Nahhh, c'mon, you're just trying to keep me from having fun."
Person does X.
God: 
And, BTW, I do think that this is.
I already explained it though. I'll go ahead and do it again, just incase you missed it.
I think that God Nows every possibility that we could take, and every possibility after that. But, he does may not know the one we will take, unless he decides to intervene to make it so, suspending our free will. That is why I can believe in revelation, because then he will suspend Free Will and make things happen.
Archers Roxxors!
Since when does, "He's magic, so the rules don't apply to God," have any place in a logical discussion? If it's an article of faith for you, then simply say so and move on; saying silly things like that in an attempt to make your beliefs sound logical isn't productive.
If religion was rational, it would be physics.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Archers Roxxors!
Note: This is speculation. And for the most part inane. Being as that is, I will not respond to any flames brought on by this. *nopants dance*
tries to avoid doing the no pants dance, but is strangely compelled [ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Gydyon ]
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Star Collective said:
Bah, I had to go to class so my reply is a tad late Bloodsage. First of all, the choices were not "made before you were born". Now, as I believe I stated clearly, You make the choice, the foresight God has is a reflection of that choice. Once again you are attempting to place finite bounds on the infinite. Stop thinking in the limiting framework of time and consider it like a math equation. Time is irrelevant when you consider the infinite.
You are simply spouting platitudes, and have not answered the question.
Why should I consider time as being anything other than it demonstrably is?
You said that the decision was made before the act, and that was how God could know the outcome. Since he--presumably--knew of my birth and the course of my life before I was born, then your assertion is that the decision was made before I was born. QED.
Without making up things, or asking me to imagine things that are not, or that cannot be proven, tell me how foreknowledge does not impede free will. Airy, "God is outside time," statements are nonsensical.
There is no "outside time," because time is not a thing separate from the fabric of reality. One cannot be outside it in any meaningful way.
How, exactly, am I making a choice if the result cannot be anything other than what God foresees? I'm not making a choice, I'm simply doing what I must to avoid the possibility of God being wrong.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Check out the big brain on Bloodsage!
How can anyone do what they want if the results are known in advance, and there is 0% chance of selecting anything except the foreseen action?Knowing the future constrains the future.
The trick is, YOU don't know. God knows, but he's not telling. So, when the moment comes for you to make a choice, you don't know what you will choose. You think it through, and make your decision. God doesn't tell you what to do.
That is why you have free will. Sure, God may kick your ass for your choices, but you still have to make those choices for yourself. He doesn't control you like a puppet.
If God's knowing or not knowing somehow directly impacted upon the lives of people, then it would be something we could measure and prove, right? And, therefore, prove the existance of God, right? The fact that people still argue about the existance of God can be seen as proof that God isn't directly controling us. We have free will.
God just finds us painfully predictable, is all.
(Ok, that's my point in full. If you can shoot holes in it, I have nothing further to use to defend the idea. So, shoot away, just don't be suprised when I don't defend the idea. 
)
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The trick is, YOU don't know. God knows, but he's not telling. So, when the moment comes for you to make a choice, you don't know what you will choose. You think it through, and make your decision. God doesn't tell you what to do.
This is not relevant. I'm not actually making a choice, but rather acting out what was foreseen.
The thought process is irrelevant if there is no way to choose any action but that foreseen. Thus is free will an illusion: we think we're choosing, but the path is foreknown, and thus predetermined.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
You are simply spouting platitudes, and have not answered the question.
**I have too and I am not "spouting platitudes," Read the post Maradon-wannabeAnd stop attempting to trivialize my words, its not going to work with me.
Why should I consider time as being anything other than it demonstrably is?
**When did I say you should?
You said that the decision was made before the act, and that was how God could know the outcome. Since he--presumably--knew of my birth and the course of my life before I was born, then your assertion is that the decision was made before I was born. QED.
**You have it ass-backwards, the choice you made at that moment determined the foresight God had earlier.
Without making up things, or asking me to imagine things that are not, or that cannot be proven, tell me how foreknowledge does not impede free will. Airy, "God is outside time," statements are nonsensical.
**I don't recall referring to God as being "outside time", although anything is possible for an omnipotent being.
There is no "outside time," because time is not a thing separate from the fabric of reality. One cannot be outside it in any meaningful way.
**This "outside time" BS again!? On the scale of the infinite, time is not removed, simply irrelevant, think BIG
How, exactly, am I making a choice if the result cannot be anything other than what God foresees? I'm not making a choice, I'm simply doing what I must to avoid the possibility of God being wrong.
**Answered above, however, I like the fact that your posts are so well organized into an essay format
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Why should I consider time as being anything other than it demonstrably is?
**When did I say you should?
You said that the decision was made before the act, and that was how God could know the outcome. Since he--presumably--knew of my birth and the course of my life before I was born, then your assertion is that the decision was made before I was born. QED.
**You have it ass-backwards, the choice you made at that moment determined the foresight God had earlier.
Isn't it ironic how you claim you never said time works other than it has been proven to, yet the very next statement relies on time working backwards? Which has been proven to be impossible.
Your decent into silliness is now complete.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
...I don't remember if someone has tried this one earlier in the thread, but I'm too tired to look right now.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
At any rate, I didn't say time worked any way other than it does, I just said that in this case it was irrelevant. My statement is not dependent on time at all. Time has no place in my statements. STOP YOUR OBSESSION WITH TIME! You are putting words in my mouth the same as you did with your little "circular reasoning" trip. Don't do that. I can do that. Not you. Me. Not your sister or your dog or anyone else. Me! Memememememememe!
Archers Roxxors!
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Bloodsage had this to say about Pirotess:
This is not relevant. I'm not actually making a choice, but rather acting out what was foreseen.The thought process is irrelevant if there is no way to choose any action but that foreseen. Thus is free will an illusion: we think we're choosing, but the path is foreknown, and thus predetermined.
Then you can go along being miserable with life, knowing that it is all foreseen, that you have no true choices, while I am happy go crazy. Ignorance is bliss.
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Star Collective had this to say about John Romero:
Hah! Rescued from the depths of page 2!
WHY?
