quote:
Drysart had this to say about (_|_):
The hard drive is yours. The data isn't.
Exactly. Just like saying you own windows or even your character in everquest(although they are not stored localy) You are in effect leasing them. The money you pay out is paying for the right to use that product as long as you follow the rules they lay down.
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Drysart wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
You're still wrong.
He never said he was right, unless I am reading a different thread, he just said he didn't care. Big difference there.
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Drysart had this to say about John Romero:
You're still wrong.
When I start to see some detrimental effects on the music industry, RIAA, or society as a whole, I'll remove Morphius from my hard drive and never pirate another MP3 again.
Untill then pirating music looks to be a win-win situation for everybody. They're making more money despite or, arguably (arguably I say!), even because we're getting free samples of thier product. [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Koska Kintaro ]
quote:
WaisztarrozBarrimas thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Oh great, now I'm being compared to Hitler.I'm quite done here.
Nah. My apologies for the way that sounded. I used that as an extreme example. Hitler tried to say that the Means justified the ends. They didn't. A civilized society doesn't work like that.
Hmm try this one. You need a new car. You can steal a car. or buy one. In the first example the ends would not justify the means.
[EDIT] Wow, um... that would've been a lot more relevant had it not been buried waaaaaay underneath Gikk and Waist's posts [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Sentow ]
quote:
Avylen wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Haha, Azizza we all know there is more wrong with hitler than the ends justify the means, much MUCH more. Murderers are anarchists, but does that make all anarchists evil.
Tis true. Not Apology and clarification above. It was the first thing that came to mind and I was trying to figure out this Damn VB script that won't work right.
Note, I am in no way arguing Hitler is a good person, not at all. All I am arguing is that with good there is the bad, and with bad there is the good. The grayest of blue skies.
I would have never heard of them if an old friend of mine hadn't sent me an mp3 of Chasm.
That's all I need, thank you. I'll continue finding music I like.
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Azizza had this to say about (_|_):
Nah. My apologies for the way that sounded. I used that as an extreme example.
Much better, thank you.
Yes, that's right, hot live sex!.
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Azizza had this to say about Tron:
Nope. Hitler tried that.
Ok... I don't knwo if it's just the mailing lists/message boards I'm one (5 I tcan think of) The first to compare anything to A: Hitler, or b: Nazis automatically looses the arguement.
((The disclaimer, being if the arguement is actually ABOUT hitler, then the point is moot.)
Sorry, Azizza. 
I cun speel reel gud. [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Gikkwiny ]
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WaisztarrozBarrimas had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Much better, thank you.
No prob. Didn't start this thread to piss people off. Just wanted a good discussion.
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Koska Kintaro had this to say about Duck Tales:
When I start to see some detrimental effects on the music industry, RIAA, or society as a whole, I'll remove Morphius from my hard drive and never pirate another MP3 again.When it's posted that album sales are down by even 10% from last year and falling, then I'll do all that.
Untill then pirating music looks to be a win-win situation for everybody. They're making more money despite or, arguably (arguably I say!), even because we're getting free samples of thier product.
Also, according to the chart on that article, record sales overall increased from 175m units to 200m units between 97 and 2000. That's a 14% increase over 3 years. (This article not withstanding, which shows a 39% DROP in the sales of singles since Napster rose up).
According to this article, economic growth for 2Q 2000 was 5.6%. Assuming the economy was slowing down then (which is what that article is about), we can conservatively apply that 5.6% to all 12 quarters between 97 and 2000, giving 192% overall growth.
192% versus 14%? Considering the recording industry usually keeps up within 15-20% of growth (as entertainment providers usually do as their growth is based on how much disposable income is in the economy), their comparative growth of only 7% to the overall economy (less than half of normal) should say something about how well they're keeping up. (And as noted in my factfilled post above which you conveniently avoided, the supression of 50% of their growth is hurting the artists more than 50%.)
Delete away. [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Drysart ]
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Avylen had this to say about (_|_):
Falaanla calling him a hypocrit doesn't make your actions any better, attacking him doesn't defend you.
I am calling him a hypocrite, because that is what he is being. He is, on one hand, saying one thing, as if he has never done it (or something closely related to it, that is)
And why do I have to defend myself? Im not trying to make any of my actions seem better. Im simply stating what I see -- someone being a hypocrite.
Please find a place where I said something that I need to defend, thanks
*shrug*
Guess Ill leave the thread now, though. Dont want to take the thread back down a direction that Azizza doesnt want it [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Falaanla Marr ]
Fal
Napster's two main effects is this, from what I'm getting:
1) It introduces people to new music. It causes them to find new bands and like them and buy their music. That's good.
Now, if services JUST caused this, then, well, that would mean that it's all good. Then we have 2.
2) But there are people who will copy entire cds, thus sticking it to the bands. That's bad.
So, it's two nearly opposite forces acting upon each other. I'm going to take a guess here and say that the 'bad' force outweighs or outpushes the 'good'.
Another major problem is that computer piracy is like speeding- You can break it and get away with it scot-free or, if you do it too much, you almost never get caught. (Actually, you're more likely to get caught for speeding. )
Of course, good and bad are in the view of the corporation/band, the ones who are seeking profit. Is file sharing good for the consumers? Yes. Do I feel that cds are overpriced? Yes.
So, we've hit both extremes here. Cds are too much, and file transfer is too rampant, hurting sales. Obviously we need a middle. For the cds, we need to lower cd prices.
Oh, I do have mp3s.
For filesharing, it has to be restricted to where the bad is no longer outweighing the good. These things need to happen.
1) An effective computer piracy law. (But less restrictive. Like a limit on mp3s) We're getting there, but doing so starts to step on the fun thing of privacy.
2) Restricted access to songs. Like, only release those on radios. They could do this now, but without piracy laws, people would work around this.
I think that's it. I can't really type more. Out of time.
quote:
1) An effective computer piracy law. (But less restrictive. Like a limit on mp3s) We're getting there, but doing so starts to step on the fun thing of privacy.
That begs the question: How long til Big Brother's snooping my computers, for mp3s. Whether they be legal or illegal copies. How will BB "tell" which is legal or illegal?
It just can't be done. Alot of people would like to tell you that it can be, but it can't.
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Reyolen had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Alright, I must say I used napster before and I now use aimster (slow but it works) I really never thought of it as morally wrong, per say. You say it's stealing, but think of it this way.
*Is it not ok to record a tape of the radio for your own listening? Are you hurting anyone?
*Is it not ok to use that same tape to show have your friend have a listen?
*Is it not ok for him to do the same with maybe, oh, say, 3 or 4 more songs for his other friend?
If anything, it gets the friends MORE intersted in that music. You must understand that people are not making a profit off the music they listen to, and the companiesand artists are not loosing money from the above statements (at least not very much) As long as it is controlled, i see no real wrong with it. There are many things you can't find other places. What about those web sites that offer up downloads from their sites, video game music or radio music? Is that illegal? Probably. Is it wrong? Maybe. Is it lowering anyone's profit? Doubt it, because you see, some of those you can't buy or wouldn't have bought. Whether you have a right to own it or not, you haven't hurt anyone if you weren't going to get it anyway...I know some of this can be argued forever and a day, from both sides. I agree that stealing is wrong, and maybe this is. But just because something is considered wrong, does that really make it wrong in every case? Yes? Think about it. Just my 2 cents.
Point 1: Not as much as stealing. The difference is is that radio songs are restricted. Bands and companies only send certain songs. That's a good thing in itself to get interested.
Point 2: No. It's ok. As long as it's on the radio (Well, I think this is true), it's in the public domain. They chose to release it to the public.
The difference between a cd and the radio is that a cd is meant for YOU. One person. If you pay the money, you get the songs. So, it is *wrong* (I am guilty too.) to give the songs to others. It's like how copying videos is illegal.
*Showing, yes. Giving, no. You have all the right to show the cd's music. You own the cd. You do not own the music.
*For those you can't buy, that's good. Technically, it is wrong, but since you're not stealing from anyone (Unless you plagiarize), then it's ok.
No, it's not wrong in every case, unless you're directly stealing from them.
Now I don't think I am in any way moraly superior to anyone here. Hell I have done some things in my life that would make people around here hate me. We all have our demons.
All I am saying is that This is illegal and imoral since Theft is imoral, and what we are talking about is theft.
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Demitri had this to say about Pirotess:
That begs the question: How long til Big Brother's snooping my computers, for mp3s. Whether they be legal or illegal copies. How will BB "tell" which is legal or illegal?It just can't be done. Alot of people would like to tell you that it can be, but it can't.
If they could directly access the files (Listen to the music), then they could tell which is legal and illegal.
Also, I said that there must a restriction on which songs are availible for public domain (like the radio, except with a little more).
It just matters how adversly file transfer affects the industry. If it is that bad, then maybe that extreme may have to happen.
I agree that it can't be done....... but I say yet. We need better technology.
Oh, let me say that I don't want BB snooping around, but, y'know, if it has to happen, I guess we'll have to live with it or go underground. [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Lenlalron ]
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Reyolen had this to say about Duck Tales:
*Is it not ok to record a tape of the radio for your own listening? Are you hurting anyone?
Radio stations actually pay more for a song becuase of this if I am correct. It is like sports on TV> you can make a copy for yourself for later veiwing. You can't invite friends over and have them pay to watch it at your house.
quote:
If they could directly access the files (Listen to the music), then they could tell which is legal and illegal.
Explain.
I'm fairly picky with my MP3s, I hold all to the same standard. Not 128kbps? Not 44khz? Fuck off, then. Not worth my time. I go for high quality, half ass isn't a choice around here.
Edit: And, in another thought, that's just impossible to do. [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Demitri ]
I know people with several thousand mp3s. What company, government or otherwise, is going to sift through several thousand files that belong to one person to see if any are illegal?
quote:
Avylen stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
If it is on the radio it is not public domain. Sorry just had to correct that.
Guess I was wrong there. But it should be considered in the domain, since they did release it to the public, or at least a short time after the songs are given to the radio.
Demitri: I mean, if they could listen to what music it was (This is where it may get shaky), they could tell if it was in the legal list or not. That'd be painstaking for humans, though, and I"m not sure computers could do it now.
quote:
Solstyce wrote this stupid crap:
Now, what about small bands who, if it weren't for mp3s and filesharing, wouldn't get their name our there and their music heard? Is filesharing a "good" thing in that case, since it helps the band out?
Then that is thier choice. If they want thier music to be free then great. IT BELONGS TO THEM. If I want to give away some things I own I am allowed to do it. I can not however go into your home and start giving away your things.
Idealistically, you shouldn't do it. You're not paying for your enjoyment. You're not renting the music, you're not buying your own copy, you're not paying dues to anyone. It is stealing. You're taking something that doesn't belong to you. In the idealistic world, you can be tempted to no end and it's still wrong and you shouldn't do it. Morally and Ethically, it's wrong. No downloading games off the net, no reading other peoples' works off the net. And if the record companies screw bands out of their money, then it's none of your business; it's between the company and the artist.
Unfortunately society has never been ruled completely by its morals, ethics, and idealism. Never. This country has never been ruled by its morals, ethics, and idealism. It's been shaped by our hopes and dreams, yes, but never ruled by them. Case in point: Founding fathers wanted to include a clause about slavery in the Constitution. Didn't happen. Thomas Jefferson himself had slaves, despite being an extremely vocal opponent of the practice. Why didn't it go through? Because the idealistic way of things didn't fit into how the way the world worked. It wasn't until the mid-1800's that slavery was stamped out, and even then it wasn't because the underlying causes of slavery were abolished; slaves still ended up sharecropping and the like.
Now...I'm not equating MP3 sharing to slavery. I could find some vague parallel between the two, but it's pretty vague. What I AM saying is this: keep your idealism, but live in the real world.
Back when record companies actually made records, they cut a lot of singles, right? Right. Mainly because they didn't know if bands were going to be a hit or not. Anyways, everyone owned the singles they liked, and everyone was happy.
Fast forward through eight-tracks to audio cassettes. Suddenly, the record labels don't have such a keen grasp of things. People can buy blank cassettes and make copies of their music. They continue to make single-song albums (usually including a second non-radio-play song, to entice you to buy the album). They whine and gripe and get pissy. Then someone crunches some numbers.
It's more cost effective to produce singles only for groups you're not going to be pushing like mad. Artists who get deep penetration in the target audience get full albums put out. But people can still copy those albums from tape to tape and yeah things do degrade, but that's still not money in the company pocket. So...how do they recoup losses? They start making blank tapes. If you're going to dupe their product anyway, they don't want less of their profit. They're forced to compromise; people are going to do it, it's nearly impossible to enforce laws on copying stuff unless they play it in public (Illegal search and seizure laws). And since you'll never get that toppled, you ensure you get a cut.
Now when you go to buy blank audio or video cassettes, you've got a dozen different varieties. Some are better quality than others and for that you pay more for minutely different fidelity. A new market has opened, free enterprise prevails, hurray for all.
Now skip ahead to CD's. Record companies must've thought they were going back to the good old days. CD's could be copied to tape, but tapes clearly didn't have the crisp quality of CD's. Plus for that higher fidelity they could charge 1.5 to 2 times the cost of a tape! Mama mia! AND the discs are cheaper to assemble than cassettes! And with the advent of the discman and other portable CD players, they must've been near-orgasmic. Cassettes' one advantage was that there were ways of taking them with you while CD players were very temperamental about being jostled. Now people would pay $20 bucks for the quality because they could take it with them.
Skip ahead to a few years ago. Napster must have seemed like a bad nightmare come to visit again. People could get the music off the internet. People could get CD quality off the internet. And the push for bigger, better computers, faster processors, faster connection rates...it all made things worse.
So they get a big name band to try and stir up the moral crusade. They weren't interested in the morality, or the ethics, or the idealism. The idea they liked was the fat wad of bills in their pocket. But they had people fed to believe (like all people in the world) that they were the moral leaders. As goes America, so shall the world. Pfft. Yeah right. Ask Mort. We rule other cultures about as much as one man rules a city. But at any rate, they get a victory. They bought themselves some breathing time. Smug as the record companies were, though, all they did with this bought time was squander it. They didn't eliminate the perceived problem. They just made it get craftier.
And that's where we are now. The "crisis" they're facing isn't whether or not they can eliminate such things. Won't ever happen. Ever. Just like back in the 80's they couldn't get rid of the idea of people taping music off the radio, or copying tapes. They tried, but it didn't work.
The real trick they have to face now is how are they going to get themselves in on the action? Some companies like Sony already have their fingers in the hardware pie. MP3 players and computer components and the like. Other companies without that infrastructure will probably go around making deals with big internet providers, trading better access for a cut in the take. Eventually they won't waste time with online music companies like MP3.com and the like. They'll go right for the jugular...hitting you at your ISP level. Few dollars more a month. Whoopee. And you'll end up taking it for the same reason you'll end up with Windows XP on your computer. It's the next step. It's the way things are.
Now there is not one thing politically correct about this post. It's not what idealistic people want to hear, it's not what liberal-minded consumers want to hear. It's not what conservative-minded producers want to hear. But it is the way, I think, that things will work. The world doesn't change in a heartbeat or the blink of an eye. But it is how things work. Don't give up your idealism...it helps to drive the world and fuel it...but at the same time don't become so enraptured with it that you forget the reality you're driving.
The system works. Against all logic, against all fairness, against morality and ethics. It works. And it will continue to work, because that is the nature of the system.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Bullshit "who does it really hurt?" arguments notwithstanding, stealing is bad.
Bullshit "you can't say anything because you haven't been cannonized yet" arguments notwithstanding, stealing is bad.
There's some pretty pathetic rationalization going on here. I'd actually have more respect for someone who'd just admit their theft and say they didn't care. But, please, spare us the grasping at tortured, tenuous, ridiculous moral straws to show it's somehow okay to steal.
It isn't.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Meep meep meep, meep meep, meep meep meep.
Why is it that everytime Ja'Deth makes a post it is extremely long yet makes so much sense than you want him to post more
quote:
Bloodsage had this to say about Duck Tales:
Stealing is bad.Bullshit "who does it really hurt?" arguments notwithstanding, stealing is bad.
Bullshit "you can't say anything because you haven't been cannonized yet" arguments notwithstanding, stealing is bad.
There's some pretty pathetic rationalization going on here. I'd actually have more respect for someone who'd just admit their theft and say they didn't care. But, please, spare us the grasping at tortured, tenuous, ridiculous moral straws to show it's somehow okay to steal.
It isn't.
See my speeding analogy. Wrong, yes. Get away with? Yes. Heck, it's almost been fully accepted as part of our culture.
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Azizza had this to say about Tron:
Why is it that everytime Ja'Deth makes a post it is extremely long yet makes so much sense than you want him to post more
It's a Dethessay! Maybe I should stop admiring the size and read it.
This has been another installment of Skaw's Random Illogic.
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Aeadil had this to say about Captain Planet:
My Simple brain is overwhelmed by this STAUFF
You get overwhelmed by the fact that you only have eight fingers and two thumbs. Go back to your FMV sequences.
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Demitri had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
You get overwhelmed by the fact that you only have eight fingers and two thumbs. Go back to your FMV sequences.
Alright sir, Ill make sure to get on top of that right away! Ill just finish FF8 again, and crank up the Dual Shock.
Azizza, Bloodsage, I admit I'm wrong, I'm not going to reason it out. In short, I don't care.
Call me insensitive, but I'll never meet the artist, they'll never know my name, or even be aware of my specific violation of their creations.
[humor] On the other hand, I see any punishment they get as damnation for the evil sins of Pop, Rap, and Hip-hop Music (since, undoubtedly, that's what most of Music File Swapping is, as that is also what most of moderm music is). [/humor]
So yeah, basicly, I don't give a damn, leave me alone about it, don't think you're a better person for it though, .
You should also remember, you're defining Right and Wrong as your Right and Wrong, not ours,
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Aeadil had this to say about Duck Tales:
Alright sir, Ill make sure to get on top of that right away! Ill just finish FF8 again, and crank up the Dual Shock.
I still haven't beaten that..
