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Maradon! impressed everyone with:
That's a pretty silly thing to say. Gear with ten stats will always have drastically less of each stat than comparable gear with two or three.
Considering you can't get gear with just spell damage and stamina on it, you're going to have to deal with gear with 3 or 4 stats. I'm in beta too.
Shock and awe: you may have to sacrifice some HP to build spirit. Welcome to every other caster class.
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That's also a pretty silly thing to say. In BC there was no drastic new direction in gear between Nagrand and BT, nor was there in base WoW. Why on earth would there be in LK?
Armor pen? Haste? Those things were not on level 65 gear. Not only that, but it's far easier to build crit at higher levels than it is at lower levels.
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Considering you can't get gear with just spell damage and stamina on it, you're going to have to deal with gear with 3 or 4 stats. I'm in beta too.
We're going to have to deal with one more stat than we used to have to deal with, just to stay balanced. That's a huge nerf.
Imagine if, one day, paladin spells no longer gained any damage from +dmg gear, and they had to get an entirely new stat, +faith, but also had to keep getting +healing. Unless huge amounts of +faith was given out for free on every piece of pally gear, that would be an enormous nerf.
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Shock and awe: you may have to sacrifice some HP to build spirit. Welcome to every other caster class.
Unfortunately, the class was balanced around NOT having to do that, and forcing us to do it all of a sudden is an enormous nerf and will pull down warlock DPS a huge amount.
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x--WilliasO-('-'Q) :
Armor pen? Haste? Those things were not on level 65 gear. Not only that, but it's far easier to build crit at higher levels than it is at lower levels.
Well, first of all, spell haste didn't even happen until HIGH end raid gear. The vast majority of all level 70 raid gear does not have it. It would sorta suck having to get extremely high level raid gear just for your class to be balanced again.
Secondly, the rare pieces of gear with haste on them didn't represent an entirely new gear strategy, they were an option that you were not forced to take, and usually came on gear that had the same old stats that you wanted to focus on anyway.
You're still trying to make the case that Blizzard is nerfing warlocks, and undoing those nerfs with level 80 gear, which is a really dumb argument to make. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 06:10 PM.
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Kegwening:
It's about as logical as freaking out that they're ruining your class forever based on a work in progress
If Blizzard completely undoes all of these changes before release, I will apologize profusely.
I sincerely doubt that will happen, especially given that each successive beta patch only makes the nerfs more severe.
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Maradon! had this to say about Duck Tales:
It would sorta suck having to get extremely high level raid gear just for your class to be balanced again.
TBC ret paladins would like a word with you Kegwen fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 06:14 PM.
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Kegwening:
TBC ret paladins would like a word with you
One spec out of three possible ones is a little different from an entire class.
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Maradon! was naked while typing this:
You're still trying to make the case that Blizzard is nerfing warlocks, and undoing those nerfs with level 80 gear, which is a really dumb argument to make.
Oh, I understand Blizzard is nerfing warlocks.
I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.
It's pretty obvious that Blizzard wants spirit to be a desired stat. Mana regen being the biggest point. Unless Blizzard does something to Life Tap, warlocks will ignore most other changes made to their mana regen.
And to be quite honest, as a shadow priest, I wish I had a few more stats to deal with. Blizzard doesn't seem to want to mess with DoT mechanics though.
Changing us to spirit based casters after nearly five fucking years without the requisite gear shifts is utterly retarded and a bigger nerf than most people realize.
Maybe if you keep wording your complaints this way, Blizzard will revert your class to only being effective with shadowbolt spam for yet another expansion! Kegwen fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 07:03 PM.
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There was much rejoicing when Kegwen said this:
why can't we press curse of shadows shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt life tap life tap shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt FOREVER
Don't get me wrong, I like what they're doing with the wotlk talent specs, it looks like they're trying to make an incinerate/shadowflame based build/cycle and a UA type cycle useful for raiding, but I still want to see how the numbers turn out. I actually agree with the change of ISB to 15% from 20%, and other minor bits, and they finally gave us spellhit in a talent (Hooray).
I just think changing something so base to the class (Like they were going to try and do with 2.4 lifetap changes, lol scaling backwards as you got more gear) is a very very bad idea and they'd [warlocks] would be the worse for it.
Edit: Typo. Delphi Aegis fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 07:05 PM.
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Kegwening:
edit: I have a glimmer of hope that they're trying to avoid shadowbolt spam being top tier DPS with the changes and that the math will work out somehowMaybe if you keep wording your complaints this way, Blizzard will revert your class to only being effective with shadowbolt spam for yet another expansion!
That's a little bit like saying they're going to keep mages as "fireball bots" or rogues as "backstab bots" or Warriors as "taunt bots"
And it's kinda dumb to argue that an ability should be nerfed on those grounds anyway. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 07:43 PM.
...And this one for warlocks at the exact same skill level!
Do I want 11 spell power and 23 hit rating, or do I want to work toward getting my fel armor, lifetap, and demonic embrace to be as good as they were before they were nerfed?
Just wait for raid gear - warlocks will have to give up even MORE +dmg for spirit.
You only need 9% spell hit.
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Delphi Aegis said this about your mom:
Changing us to spirit based casters after nearly five fucking years without the requisite gear shifts is utterly retarded and a bigger nerf than most people realize.
what
Gear is shifting with LK. Let's see some warlock set gear before we start whining about needing spirit, okay?
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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Willias who doth quote:
whatGear is shifting with LK. Let's see some warlock set gear before we start whining about needing spirit, okay?
I don't know how else I can phrase this to you to make it any clearer.
Unless warlock gear is BETTER than everyone else's gear by having stats that are just as good PLUS spirit, warlocks will be doing drastically less damage relative to other DPS classes. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 08:43 PM.
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Maradon! wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
50-39 = 11
39 + 30% of 33 = 49
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Unless warlock gear is BETTER than everyone else's gear by having stats that are just as good PLUS spirit, warlocks will be doing drastically less damage relative to other DPS classes.
I really doubt it is going to be THAT bad.
Edit: shit, confused myself for a minute Willias fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 09:01 PM.
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x--WilliasO-('-'Q) :
39 + 30% = 51So excuse me, I was wrong. The spirit belt has 1 more damage than the +hit belt.
Well, for starters, Mages don't have to rely on self buffs to make their gear better.
Secondly, it's 30% of your spirit. So with FA that'd be 10 more damage. Still sacrificing damage stats just to get our old abilities back up to normal.
23 hit rating on a belt is a pretty huge amount of +hit that you wouldn't have to get from another piece, but even if that weren't the case, hit rating is still weighted almost as highly as 1 +crit or 1 +dmg. That was the purpose of moving to the rating system in the first place.
So what is 23 +hit on this belt could easily be 10 CR and 13 +dmg on another belt - stats a warlock would have to give up if he wanted pre-nerf FA and lifetap. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 09:09 PM.
Second, Fel Armor hasn't been nerfed. It doesn't improve healing any more, that's on Demon Armor. Fel Armor still gives the same spell damage bonus.
Yes, I agree you're going to have to give up something for your new need of spirit, I don't think it's going to hurt as much as you think. (You might be lowered down to mage power! OH GOD)
And looking back at those belts. What the fuck, why'd they get nerfed so hard? They suck pretty bad in LK. Willias fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 09:31 PM.
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x--WilliasO-('-'Q) :
Second, Fel Armor hasn't been nerfed. It doesn't improve healing any more, that's on Demon Armor. Fel Armor still gives the same spell damage bonus.
If everything else in the game receives a buff, and one ability does not, then that is a nerf.
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Yes, I agree you're going to have to give up something for your new need of spirit, I don't think it's going to hurt as much as you think.
What exactly do you base that on? Because if we extrapolate known gear trends out to 80, that won't actually be the case.
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Peanut butter ass Shaq Nina booooze lime pole over bench lick:
Stop whining, man up and quit the fucking game already.
I already did.
I hope WAR is good because if not I won't have any MMO's for a few years. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 08-09-2008 at 09:34 PM.
So I was pretty much right about Necros, too.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Maradon! said:
What exactly do you base that on? Because if we extrapolate known gear trends out to 80, that won't actually be the case.
WHAT
by that logic, the entire shadow priest class got nerfed. :V
...wait
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What exactly do you base that on? Because if we extrapolate known gear trends out to 80, that won't actually be the case.
Are the known gear trends from before, or after level 70?
Rogues +++++
Hunters +++
Mages ++
Shaman ++
Paladin +
Druids +
Warriors +
Warlocks
Priests -
Yep, seems like a pretty standard blizzard release.
Looks like with totems and SPriests effects being made raid-wide, they're trying to stop stacking classes in order to make fights doable. Playing a priest main, I'd be content if they gave a little more buffing to Discipline in raids, Holy's looking solid.
welp
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So let's review.Rogues +++++
Hunters +++
Mages ++
Shaman ++
Paladin +
Druids +
Warriors +
Warlocks
Priests -Yep, seems like a pretty standard blizzard release.
Should probably add some pluses to Mages and paladins and take away that plus you have beside warriors.
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Willias needs to learn to type:
In tonight's patch, downranking no longer exists.welp
I don't understand why they just don't do caster spellbooks like rogue or warrior spell books and have the lower rank disappear when you learn the higher rank.
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We were all impressed when Blindy. wrote:
I don't understand why they just don't do caster spellbooks like rogue or warrior spell books and have the lower rank disappear when you learn the higher rank.
They probably will, this is just their round-a-bout way of getting to that. I imagine they will go: "Hey if all these spells cost the same but provide a range of effects why don't we just have one spell that does the best effect available... oh." Then it will be like you say and it will be good. Unless there is some technical reason that they can't do it, then we just get this legacy crap forever.
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Check out the big brains on Naimah:
They probably will, this is just their round-a-bout way of getting to that. I imagine they will go: "Hey if all these spells cost the same but provide a range of effects why don't we just have one spell that does the best effect available... oh." Then it will be like you say and it will be good. Unless there is some technical reason that they can't do it, then we just get this legacy crap forever.
The only thing I can think of is for when you try to cast a high level buff on a lower level player and the game automatically down-ranks it- but the game already down-ranks it.
Edit: Blindy. fucked around with this message on 08-14-2008 at 10:54 AM.
Also I'm exited for what removed downranking will mean for pvp balancing efforts. Since invis dispell protection will no longer be cheap-as-free maybe they can stop buffing rogues to the nines.
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I suppose the same could be said of all Blindy.s...
I don't understand why they just don't do caster spellbooks like rogue or warrior spell books and have the lower rank disappear when you learn the higher rank.
Because different ranks of spells cost different amounts of mana, a resource that grows as you gain levels and gear.
Rogue and Warrior skills always use the same amount of energy or rage, regardless of rank, making lower ranks worthless.
The only way it would work for casters to have the same system is to either make mana a fixed number, or make all spells cost something scalable like a % of base mana, and have all ranks cost the same that way.
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While you read this, I'm gonna go make out with Densetsu's mom:
Because different ranks of spells cost different amounts of mana, a resource that grows as you gain levels and gear.Rogue and Warrior skills always use the same amount of energy or rage, regardless of rank, making lower ranks worthless.
The only way it would work for casters to have the same system is to either make mana a fixed number, or make all spells cost something scalable like a % of base mana, and have all ranks cost the same that way.
But they are making previous ranks of spells cost more than current ranks of spells, which effectively removes any and all reasons for casting a previous rank of anything. So just remove it from the spell book.
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Nobody really understood why Densetsu wrote:
The only way it would work for casters to have the same system is to either make mana a fixed number, or make all spells cost something scalable like a % of base mana, and have all ranks cost the same that way.
The base mana thing is supposedly what they're doing.
Except, for whatever reason, lower rank spells cost more mana than your current rank.
edit: Wrong account! This is Taeldian! Derek fucked around with this message on 08-14-2008 at 07:51 PM.
