I was looking at the Prius since hey, it looks better than my Focus and drives for twice as long. My question is what are the downsides to a hybrid vehicle? The benefits are obvious. This car will be parked outside all the time.
Financially, you're still better off buying a cheaper Honda Civic gas engine car than you are a Hybrid, it takes a while before you start to break even on your investment because of the added cost vs. fuel savings.
It gets a bit less in gas mileage than the prius, but iirc, it actually costs less. Maybe that's just in my area, though.
The hybrids take a different way of driving to get better fuel economy though; it's all smooth acceleration and braking, and a generally slower pace than I see tooling around town in general.
Dr. Delidgamond Ph.D fucked around with this message on 04-03-2008 at 09:03 PM.
/shrug
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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And coming in at #1 is Dr. Delidgamond Ph.D with "Reply." I'm Casey Casem.
I'm just looking for a fuel efficient car to drive around in that isn't the Smart. I'm clueless when it comes to cars. What gives the electric part of a gas/elec hybrid motor it's juice. I just have it in my mind that I plug it into a wall socket at night.
Not quite. There exist plug-in hybrid vehicles, certainly, but generally speaking, the gas motor is what generates the electricity to charge the batteries, and the electric motor is actually what drives the car. The moniker 'hybrid' covers a wide variety of configurations, though.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Dr. Delidgamond Ph.D wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I'm just looking for a fuel efficient car to drive around in that isn't the Smart. I'm clueless when it comes to cars. What gives the electric part of a gas/elec hybrid motor it's juice. I just have it in my mind that I plug it into a wall socket at night.
True hybrids use the ICE as a generator and for wheel power.
The prius is easily the ugliest car ever produced, only scratches out around 45mpg city, and costs about ten grand more.
Just buy one of those "Hybrid" decals with the leaf and stick it to your civic so it looks like it came from the factory. That way, you can be snobby about driving a hybrid and not waste money on an ugly ass feelgood car.
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Karnaj thought about the meaning of life:
If you're considering fuel efficient vehicles, consider a Volkswagen Jetta diesel. The new motor is remarkably clean-burning and quiet, and test drive fuel economy estimates peg it at around 45 city, 55 highway.
I would stay far away from Diesel right now, given that it's nearly $1 more a gallon, depending where you live. Paying extra for a diesel engine and extra for the gas will completely negate the increased MPG.
I gotta find out how much it will cost me to buy it in the states and register it in Canada if I get it. Bullshit being $8500 more in Canada.
I have a feeling the price variance between the US and Canada is: a)US subsidies for hybrid cars (not sure on this one) and b) time lag between the variance between the US and Canadian dollar, i.e. the dealers bought the car when the US dollar was higher, and it has since dropped relative to the Canadian dollar. Though I can't see that accounting for all the varience... of course c) Canadians taxalot on cars?
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Dr. Delidgamond Ph.Ding:
The Civic Hybrid will cost me $32000 Canadian dollars or $23,235 American dollars.
Don't get the hybrid. It's a difference of like seven grand.
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x--KinanikO-('-'Q) :
Hopefully this will be corrected soon.
haahaha Maradon! fucked around with this message on 04-03-2008 at 11:38 PM.
The prices are going to be sticky for a while longer, and cars in the U.S. will continue to be much cheaper than Canadian cars. Instantly dropping the price of cars in Canada (or pegging them to the USD prices) will absolutely trash the secondary market for cars, not to mention that kind of price instability tends to annoy consumers.
Good luck buying a new car in the U.S. to bring to Canada. Honda directed American dealers not to sell to Canadians, and, as I understand, other car companies either have or will follow suit.
You might also want to look into your import laws. I think that you are required to pay taxes on the Canadian price of a car that you import at the border. I'm not sure how that works for used cars.
As for specific car recommendations, I would get a mostly depreciated car and drive it. If you are looking to keep value in your car, buying a new car then storing it outside is the absolute worst way to go. Common recommendations include an ~03 Mazda3, ~02 Honda Civic, ~02 Toyota Corolla.
If gas mileage is your primary criterion, something like a Diesel Jetta is really not a bad idea. I wouldn't worry about diesel prices; they're inflated right now because of some refining issue that's expected to clear up. Diesel prices typically run near parity with gasoline during the summer and half a dollar more during the winter. Hybrid technology really hasn't advanced enough to realize the type of gains that you are looking for. Really, any 4 cylinder economy car that gets 30mpg in the city is enough.
If you are bent on a new car, you can post and I'll go through those options.
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Reynar still thinks SARS jokes are topical, as evidenced by:
I would stay far away from Diesel right now, given that it's nearly $1 more a gallon, depending where you live. Paying extra for a diesel engine and extra for the gas will completely negate the increased MPG.
Nope, it's still quite economical. You can't find a gasoline motor that comes close to developing the kind of power the new Jetta diesel engine makes, while remaining so fuel efficient. Sure, you could buy a Honda Civic, which technically develops the same horsepower as the new Jetta, but makes just a little more than half the torque. And gets 20 less MPG in both city and highway driving.
Say diesel is $4/gallon right now, and regular is $3. Diesel costs 33% more than regular, give or take. Where the Civic averages 30 MPG combined, the Jetta averages 50. That more than accounts for the extra cost of diesel, and the motor will pay for itself in relatively short order. And sure, you can get more efficient gasoline motors, but I challenge you to find a gas-powered midsize sedan that comes anywhere near the economy of the Jetta diesel.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
It'd give you a legitimate reason to be at all those truck stops.
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Greenlit screamed this from the crapper:
You would love a diesel car, wouldn't you.It'd give you a legitimate reason to be at all those truck stops.
I already have a legitimate reason. I service truckers for extra cash. As if that weren't legitimate.
Duh.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Karnaj's fortune cookie read:
Nope, it's still quite economical. You can't find a gasoline motor that comes close to developing the kind of power the new Jetta diesel engine makes, while remaining so fuel efficient. Sure, you could buy a Honda Civic, which technically develops the same horsepower as the new Jetta, but makes just a little more than half the torque. And gets 20 less MPG in both city and highway driving.Say diesel is $4/gallon right now, and regular is $3. Diesel costs 33% more than regular, give or take. Where the Civic averages 30 MPG combined, the Jetta averages 50. That more than accounts for the extra cost of diesel, and the motor will pay for itself in relatively short order. And sure, you can get more efficient gasoline motors, but I challenge you to find a gas-powered midsize sedan that comes anywhere near the economy of the Jetta diesel.
I don't think he cares about power, he was looking at a smart car, initially.
How does the motor pay for itself? It's an added expensive that drastically alters your cost savings per mile. You can buy a lot of gas for the extra $6,000-8,000 pricetag.
The diesel arguement is a tiresome one. It's been proven time and again that it's not a good buy unless you plan on driving substantially more than 150,000 miles, as the break-even point is just below that for most diesel cars.
Higher car cost + higher gas cost = must drive a lot before you stand to break even, none the less save any money.
And cars are not an investment like homes, you do not want to bank on having to drive X amount of miles before you get a return on your purchase. Reynar fucked around with this message on 04-04-2008 at 09:52 AM.
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Reynar screamed this from the crapper:
I don't think he cares about power, he was looking at a smart car, initially.How does the motor pay for itself? It's an added expensive that drastically alters your cost savings per mile. You can buy a lot of gas for the extra $6,000-8,000 pricetag.
The diesel arguement is a tiresome one. It's been proven time and again that it's not a good buy unless you plan on driving substantially more than 150,000 miles, as the break-even point is just below that for most diesel cars.
Higher car cost + higher gas cost = must drive a lot before you stand to break even, none the less save any money.
And cars are not an investment like homes, you do not want to bank on having to drive X amount of miles before you get a return on your purchase.
Where are you getting this $6,000 figure? Markups on 4 cylinder diesel motors are around $1,000-$2,000. That's only going to get you a few hundred gallons extra fuel, and the difference is shrinking as fuel costs rise each year. Going by the fuel price figures in my above post, because it's easy, $2,000 will give you 667 gallons of fuel, or around 20,000 miles of driving at 30 MPG. So, you'd have to hold on to your car for about 1.5 years longer than you otherwise would. Given the reliability and longevity of diesel motors, that's not an outrageous prospect.
And the gap shrinks as fuel costs rise. Let's fast forward a few years, where gas costs have risen 50% and diesel is now $6 per gallon. Also, apes rule the planet. If diesel costs 33% more than regular, that'd put regular gas right around $4.50 a gallon. Perish the thought, I know.
Now, that $2000 you saved buys you a scant 444 gallons. At 30 MPG, that's only 13,200 miles, or maybe one extra year of driving. This holds, of course, with comparable sized and powered motors, in cars of the same class. You can drive something with a 1,100cc three-banger and get outrageous fuel economy, but as we all know, that's un-American.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Karnaj thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Where are you getting this $6,000 figure? Markups on 4 cylinder diesel motors are around $1,000-$2,000. That's only going to get you a few hundred gallons extra fuel, and the difference is shrinking as fuel costs rise each year. Going by the fuel price figures in my above post, because it's easy, $2,000 will give you 667 gallons of fuel, or around 20,000 miles of driving at 30 MPG. So, you'd have to hold on to your car for about 1.5 years longer than you otherwise would. Given the reliability and longevity of diesel motors, that's not an outrageous prospect.And the gap shrinks as fuel costs rise. Let's fast forward a few years, where gas costs have risen 50% and diesel is now $6 per gallon. Also, apes rule the planet. If diesel costs 33% more than regular, that'd put regular gas right around $4.50 a gallon. Perish the thought, I know.
Now, that $2000 you saved buys you a scant 444 gallons. At 30 MPG, that's only 13,200 miles, or maybe one extra year of driving. This holds, of course, with comparable sized and powered motors, in cars of the same class. You can drive something with a 1,100cc three-banger and get outrageous fuel economy, but as we all know, that's un-American.
$6,000 is the average increase on trucks when adding a diesel engine, sometimes more, if you wanted to get one of those Duramax models.
Find me the MSRP of the Jetta Diesel then. I couldn't find it anywhere on VW's website. I found a dealer quote online for a 2008 Jetta Diesel that said it was $26,000. An entry level Jetta is $17,000. If I'm wrong so be it, but I can't find any other numbers.
As for the longevity of diesel motors, yes they definitely last longer, but you have to take care of them to do so. Don't miss your oil and fuel filter changes; careful of storing outside in the cold, etc.
Car diesels, on the other hand, are designed for efficiency.
I will point out a few things about the Jetta Diesel.
1) It comes with pretty much every option. Blindy. fucked around with this message on 04-04-2008 at 03:33 PM.
2) It's subject to a huge price increase thanks to the state's archaeic view of diesels as being big polluters.
3) 1 because of 2. VW practically gives you the features for free to make it more competitive, not that it really matters.
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Reynar still thinks SARS jokes are topical, as evidenced by:
$6,000 is the average increase on trucks when adding a diesel engine, sometimes more, if you wanted to get one of those Duramax models.Find me the MSRP of the Jetta Diesel then. I couldn't find it anywhere on VW's website. I found a dealer quote online for a 2008 Jetta Diesel that said it was $26,000. An entry level Jetta is $17,000. If I'm wrong so be it, but I can't find any other numbers.
That sounds about right. Dealers I've spoken with peg them in the mid $20,000s or so, so $26K is a pretty good estimate. But if you compare comparably equipped Jettas where the only difference is the motor, you'll see a difference of around 1-2 grand. As Blindy said, Diesel Jettas come pretty decked out standard. So, you can get a Jetta for 17 grand, but it's gonna have small wheels, a manual transmission, no moonroof, shitty interior, no satellite radio, etc.
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As for the longevity of diesel motors, yes they definitely last longer, but you have to take care of them to do so. Don't miss your oil and fuel filter changes; careful of storing outside in the cold, etc.
Same could be said for gas motors. Miss a couple of oil changes and you're probably going to chunk the motor a lot earlier than you'd like.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Karnaj enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
manual transmission
That's not a downside 
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The diesel arguement is a tiresome one. It's been proven time and again that it's not a good buy unless you plan on driving substantially more than 150,000 miles, as the break-even point is just below that for most diesel cars.
Uhh, we're talking about economy cars not V8 trucks. Economy diesel engines only add 1-2k to the cost of a car. Also you seem to be missing that diesel cars tend to hold their value well because the supply is rather low in the U.S..
Hybrids are good for basic "in town" driving, providing they're true "full" hybrids like the Prius and Civic Hybrid.
Downsides, avoid the 2002 and 2003 model Prius if you opt to try to buy used, they require expensive "Low Rolling Resistance" tires that don't last very long and don't take potholes very well. They're prone to blow out from a moderately sized pothole. The Insight also uses these LRR tires. 2004 the Prius moved to normal tires. The Insight is no longer in production.
Other downsides are lack of shops that are actually willing to work on the vehicles. Even some Toyota shops have had some minor mishaps. The "smart" key is a pain in the ass. If the key module is within 35 feet of the car the ICE can start at ANY time to try to charge the high voltage battery. A few Toyota dealerships have found that out the hard way, during oil changes... new motor for the customer and a month or more wait for the ICE to arrive and be installed. I've been given some specialized training from Firestone on hybrids and frankly they scare me. The voltages can be as high as 650 volts DC and 350 volts AC.
Because these full hybrids use the electric motor to brake the car the brake pads and brake shoes will just plain rust away from lack of use. When the hydraulic brakes actually do apply, you now have to buy new rotors or drums.
One more tip, if the vehicle will be parked outside all the time I'd actually recommend getting a car with steel wheels and wheel covers instead of fancy aluminum rims. Living the in the northern climates, the fluctuation of temperatures, and the use of road salt and sand during the winter cause the aluminum to oxidize heavily around the bead where the rubber and aluminum meet. Your tires will constantly leak and it will drive you crazy.
On newer cars, many of them have Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems (All US cars built after Sept 2007 are required to have them) in the wheels. They are little sensors that send a wireless signal to your cars computer to notify you if a tire starts to lose pressure. These sensors are expensive, $80 to $200 (US) each to replace them. MAKE SURE YOU KEEP THE VALVE CAP ON THEM. I cannot stress this enough, the salt and wet will sometimes corrode the valve stem (which is also the antennae) into the sensor and the sensor will have to be replaced.
Stick with Toyota or Honda for reliability IMO.
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Kaglaaz How'ler's account was hax0red to write:
Because these full hybrids use the electric motor to brake the car the brake pads and brake shoes will just plain rust away from lack of use. When the hydraulic brakes actually do apply, you now have to buy new rotors or drums.
Not sure where you get that. The light layer of rust on the rotor will be gone after one application of the brakes. It would take months to years of no braking for them to degrade so much that you'd need new rotors.
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Dr. Delidgamond Ph.D had this to say about Duck Tales:
I bought a civic
Hybrid or Regular?
And congrats on your new purchase, I hope you enjoy it and that it serves you well .
