So, basically you could say anything about sales and I'll just go 
because I know it's selling over here. Not as well as either other console by a longshot, obviously, but it definitely has a couple numbers in the book.
They also need games. Lots of them. Games that cost a whole lot of money to make. Who's going to make them? Developers? Why would a developer invest all that money in development and make a game exclusively for the lowest selling platform available?
Right now, the PS3 isn't just in third place, it's in a distant third place and still growing more slowly than the other two. You disregard the final sales figures and try to claim that your personal experience is what really counts when the precise opposite is true.
It doesn't matter if nine of your friends and your cousin's dog's groomer have a PS3, the fact that the PS3 has sold three million units and the Wii has sold eight million and the 360 has sold eleven is what really counts because THAT is what developers are going to look at when they're investing all this money into making their game.
I honestly can't see the PS3 doing anything but ending with a profit for Sony, no matter how small. Sure, it's obviously gonna kick 'em in the nuts when they compare it to last generation, but everyone has their ups and downs. Nintendo had it's turn and now it's Sony's.
Honestly, that's all I'm really trying to say is that it's only been like 8 months and that's not nearly enough to tell if it's gonna be profit in the end. I'm guessing it will. No developers wanted to make Gamecube games except those that put 'em on multiple systems and ya know what, they still made 'em to the bitter end.
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Mr. Gainsborough stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
I honestly can't see the PS3 doing anything but ending with a profit for Sony, no matter how small.
Current market trends disagree.
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Mooj had this to say about Punky Brewster:
Current market trends disagree.
Current market trends aren't a 5 year process.
I didn't want anything to do with the 360 when it came out and I'm not too pleased with my Wii at the moment, either.
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Mr. Gainsborough had this to say about (_|_):
Current market trends aren't a 5 year process.I didn't want anything to do with the 360 when it came out and I'm not too pleased with my Wii at the moment, either.
The XBox 360 still flew off of store shelves, and the Wii still can't be found on most days except immediately after a shipment comes in to a store.
The PS3 is not in either of those two states. Developers are actively expressing disdain for the system, including the big ones such as Konami, Square, and EA.
You've got no leg to stand on in this argument, as Sony hasn't done a single thing right this generation.
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Mooj had this to say about Cuba:
Developers are actively expressing disdain for the system, including the big ones such as Konami, Square, and EA.
Developers talked shit about how hard the PS2 was to develop for, shit like that. It still led in sales last gen. People really need to stop looking at the amount of sales of the ps3 vs the amount of sales of the 360 because, well, the 360 has a year+ of a lead on the PS3. Also note, the PS3 does not have any sort of "killer app" yet, while the 360 has a few system sellers that it got around a year after launch.
Also, it isn't really fair to compare the PS3 to the Wii -- the Wii owners are typically a different audience of game players that would not buy a 360 or a PS3. They're the moms, the girlfriends, the grandma and grandpas of the gaming world, more often than not. I'd be willing to bet that Wii Penetration (hurr hurr) among gamers that would buy a PS3 or 360 is around 4-5 million at most.
Is the 360 currently ahead of the PS3? Yup. If you want to compare shit, though, give it a year for the PS3's killer apps to hit and see where stuff stands then.
EDIT: For a fair comparison, here's a link that shows where the 360 stood around this point last year:
360 sold 4 million units worldwide as of June 2006
Looking at it that way, the 360 isn't really as far ahead of the PS3 as things may seem. When the PS3 gets their killer apps, with the fanbase they have, things may change. If there is still a huge gap at this point next year, it may be easier to come down on the side of the 360. Until then, though...give it time. Falaanla Marr fucked around with this message on 07-16-2007 at 12:53 AM.
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Falaanla Marr said this about your mom:
Stuff
And I'm still not particularly impressed by the 360, but at least they got developer support and had a moderately better price point. They came into this generation of gaming as the underdog, but because they came in early they got the developer support right as they came out the gate. (Games came later due to development times, but the support was there.)
Sony was banking on brand recognition, and it failed them. Their estimates for sales have not even come close to being met. (Wish I could remember where those were posted...) The 360 had less recognition, but a better price point. (Barely)
The Wii's audience, on the other hand, shouldn't even be brought into this topic if you want to support the PS3. By targetting a different audience, Nintendo is selling their machine like wildfire. It's a complete non-issue with regards to the PS3, except for it to further beat the PS3 in numbers. On the other hand, though, that same market is the exact market that Gains seemed intent on rallying to the PS3 in his prior post: The yuppies, the soccer moms, the casual gamers who wouldn't know a thing about gaming in the first place.
Finally, neither Microsoft nor Nintendo have followed Sony's brilliant corporate policy of insulting their customers. Most serious gamers that I've seen were pretty pissed off by that.
EDIT: Also, once again I'll point out... Sony has ONE killer app lined up, and even then it's not likely to remain exclusive. Kojima wants MGS to remain PS3 exclusive, but Konami as a whole isn't happy with that arrangement. Mooj fucked around with this message on 07-16-2007 at 01:30 AM.
The Wii is a cheap alternative that has really fantastic advertising right now for being new and different and it'll sell on it's own accord because of it. Gamers don't buy Wiis, parents do. I bought a Wii because I like going to parties and having fun with it there, and because I had money and one was available at the time. That's what they're going for with it. The 360 and PS3 are the only real gaming systems on the market right now, even if the Wii will eventually have a couple fantastic 1st party games eventually.
And hey while we're trying to pretend we're Miss Cleo here, I don't see the Wii doing too hot in its later years just due to that the schtick will be done. Doesn't mean it's not a good system and the games that come out for it won't be cool, just means that it'll get old a little faster because it relies on a schtick. I'm betting Nintendo realises this and will try to make up for it, but who knows. It's not like they care anyway with the DS sales.
I really am not trying to rally for the PS3 or whatever you're talking about, shit I don't even want one. Hell, I don't even give a fuck about the Wii or the 360 right now. I'm with nem-x on this one.
Make more PS2 games. 
After this summer is over, I will have spent more on PS2 peripherals alone than a PS3 with enough left over to almost buy a Wii as well.
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Mooj had this to say about Robocop:
Sony was banking on brand recognition, and it failed them. Their estimates for sales have not even come close to being met. (Wish I could remember where those were posted...) The 360 had less recognition, but a better price point. (Barely)if you want to support the PS3.
The 360 was the underdog, and came into the game a year early. They hadn't met their very conservative estimates 9 months after release either. Estimates are always set really fucking high. If you set them low, it could be bad for stockholders or some shit i'm sure -- would show a lack of confidence in your system.
The 360 didn't start to move systems until Gears of War released. Then systems (and the game) started to fly off of shelves in the 06 holiday season.
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Mooj had this to say about Robocop:
if you want to support the PS3.
Who said I was supporting the PS3? I'm supporting the stance of not calling anyone out of the race yet because the PS3 and the Wii haven't even been out for a year yet, and the first year is never a solid indicator of which system will be a success. If it were, people could have claimed the Dreamcast would annihilate the PS2 because it had more sales at the point that the PS2 came out.
As Gains said, the Wii is not being bought by gamers, yet people in this thread bring up the numbers like its high numbers means it is a better gaming system than the PS3. And yes, it is appropriate to bring the Wii's audience in while supporting the PS3.
Yes, the PS3 and the Wii both play video games, much like a Mazda RX8 and a Ford Focus both provide transportation. However, the Ford Focus is marketed towards one group while the Mazda RX8 is marketed towards another. Sure, you sometimes have people who would buy both, but the success of one and the success of the other can't really be compared.
Personally? I don't give a shit as to which system wins out or which ones don't. I own them all because of work and will buy system exclusives for whichever one I get em for. I don't care who wins out, but hope each system is successful because console wars = better games in the long run. Falaanla Marr fucked around with this message on 07-16-2007 at 01:48 AM.
It also doesn't matter whether or not the Wii is a "next generation system" or not. It's blowing the current "next generation" systems out of the water. The Wii is not a "cheap alternative". It's rapidly approaching the point of being the standard for this generation. They've got the system install base, now all they need to do is not fuck it up. Some more third party games would go a long way to cementing their victory, but those are looking to be rather slow in the coming too. They're still light years ahead of Sony, though.
If you want to keep harping on how Nintendo's hit a damn gold mine with the DS, bear in mind what kind of talk people were spouting about the DS when it came out too. The PSP has superior hardware to the DS, yet it's sucking the DS's dust. Form a better argument, dingbat.
To respond to Fal... normally, I wouldn't give a damn who succeeds and who fails either. Gaming is gaming, and the popular systems will get the support, and the unpopular ones won't.
I'll say it again in case you didn't catch it the first time. It doesn't matter WHO is buying, as long as they're buying. Let me say once again, ECONOMICS 101. If you can't grasp the simple fact that more sales + profit = success, then you really need to be drug out back and shot.
Thing is, I've got a bone to pick with Sony because of their actively insulting their user base before the PS3 was released. I've never bought anything from a company that insulted me, and I'll be quite happy to see them fail. The fact that they got rid of Kutaragi is probably the only thing they've done right since last year's E3.
There is very little in the line of Console Wars right now. There's Microsoft with the early lead, Nintendo with the low price point and expanded audience, and Sony with the massive price point and features that most people don't have the technology to appreciate. Yes, we won't see any real "wars" for until at least after Christmas of this year. If Sony doesn't shape up, though, they won't MAKE IT past Christmas of this year. You don't lose that much money for your company and expect to keep getting supported for long. Right now the PS3 is a liability to Sony. They don't have the numbers needed to warrant continued support from the parent company. There are only two reasons why, in my opinion, the PS3 is still seeing support at all.
The first reason is that it hasn't even been out for a year. Realistically, you'd expect a company to stick it out for that long. The fact that Sony's already discontinuing one model and reducing the price of it, and pushing another model that's equal or inferior to the discontinued model in every way is NOT A GOOD SIGN. Bundling Motorstorm with it is a cheap way to say "Hey, we've got a game! Please buy me now?" They're desparately hoping that this bundle will encourage people to buy, and buy a game with it. The game that they're hoping people will buy is Resistance, the only noteworthy game in the PS3's stable at the moment. It's called "attach rate", look into it.
The second reason is much more simple. Sony was the unquestioned leader last generation. There's still the hope that one of their marketing tactics will make gamers say "Hey! It's sony! They rock!" Even without my prejudice against Sony, though, this isn't happening. I AM the primary market that they want to reach, and they've yet to even come close to reaching that sweet spot. They lost exclusives, they've been advertising nothing but sports games and Resistance, and their E3 showing was subpar. They have yet to hit any audience except for, ironically, Microsoft's target audience. That audience already has 360s and generally doesn't care.
Of course, on the topic of E3, EVERY ONE of the big three companies had a piss-poor showing. This only serves to herald the death of E3. If none of the big three were inspired to bring their A-game, that's a sure sign that support for the show is waning. E for All will probably have a significantly better presence, and E3 is probably going to go into mothballs.
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Mooj stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
EDIT: Also, once again I'll point out... Sony has ONE killer app lined up, and even then it's not likely to remain exclusive. Kojima wants MGS to remain PS3 exclusive, but Konami as a whole isn't happy with that arrangement.
At worst MGS4 will be a timed exclusive. It will be summer 2009 at the very earliest that MGS4 will be on the 360 if ever. It's not even worth talking about so stop it
Also:
LittleBigPlanet looks fucking fantastic. Some journalists who I normally agree with who've played it labeled it a system seller for them personally
Heavenly Sword looks fun (not a system seller on its own)
Killzone 2 is holy shit
Ratchet and Clank woo
Uncharted: Drake's Fortune looks like an incredible game
Unreal Tournament 3 (not everyone wants to upgrade their PC this much plus it supports PC mods which is huge) also Epic announced some sort of deal with Sony but I forget the details of it and can't find a link
PSN is looking very good with full downloadable games in addition to their more indie-friendly approach
Gran Turismo 5 if you're into racing games
blah blah they have no software right now but don't even fucking try to tell me that the next 12 months is going to be more of the same. Sony was the clear winner at E3 this year. Microsoft will win this holiday season without question, though. They showed that they're not dead in the water and it's clear now that the only problem they have going forward is price
note: not a ps3 owner and I can't see myself wanting one until at least summer 2008 but you're being an idiot
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Mooj said:
It also doesn't matter whether or not the Wii is a "next generation system" or not. It's blowing the current "next generation" systems out of the water. The Wii is not a "cheap alternative". It's rapidly approaching the point of being the standard for this generation. They've got the system install base, now all they need to do is not fuck it up. Some more third party games would go a long way to cementing their victory, but those are looking to be rather slow in the coming too. They're still light years ahead of Sony, though.
Microsoft would love to tell you how inaccurate this is with the numbers they produced in their press conference relating to the momentum of the various consoles. Besides, the fact that the Wii is a different target market matters a lot. There will always be a market for gamers, but Nintendo's target market is one that was previously untapped. It's a completely new set of people that they started to hook with the DS and that will affect the gameplay of at least the first party games. "Bridging the gap" between hardcore and casual effectively means making the core IPs more accessible. One 1up journalist said Metroid Prime 3 felt a lot like Halo.
If you watched Nintendo's E3 conference this year it's very, very clear that they've shifted most of their focus to casual gaming. There's nothing wrong with that and they're doing a very good job of it, but you have to admit that the market is different. There is some overlap, as Miyamoto said in the above link, but for the most part they're not the same people.
Stop with the scorned fanboy rage Kegwen fucked around with this message on 07-16-2007 at 02:38 AM.
Fun, though.
I have yet to see any substantial arguments against me, though Fal came close.
Kegwen's list of games is lackluster. I played Little Big Planet when it was called Pikmin. Killzone looks good, but for all the technology of the PS3, it had damn well better look good. Given its predecessor, I'm waiting to see more.
The playstation network is more or less the same was 360's marketplace, and the Wii's virtual console. Wii definitely comes in third there, but I wouldn't call the PSN anything remarkable or noteworthy.
Winning E3 this year is nothing special. It was plain to see that all three companies didn't give a damn. All three stunk it up, Sony just stunk it up the least and actually announced the most newest stuff.
If you want to insult me, try to find something that I haven't already admitted to. It'll make you look better in the long run.
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From the book of Mooj, chapter 3, verse 16:
I played Little Big Planet when it was called Pikmin.
Uh, what?
They're not even close to the same game.
Also, Virtual Console wouldn't be so bad if they actually released good games fairly often, and not the ones forgotten a year after they were released. Skaw fucked around with this message on 07-16-2007 at 04:18 AM.
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Mooj had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Ah, personal attacks and "scorned fanboy rage". Maybe I need to start calling people Sonyfags to get on your level? I dunno.
Now everybody is happy!
I so good moderating.
I think that the PS3 wants to be every-system to everybody, just like the 360 does. But I think the PS3's exhorbitant price tag kneecaps it now and will kneecap it next year, and every year until they do something to drop the price. People point at the fact that Sony's losing money on every console made and you have two camps: 1. The camp that says that if Sony's losing money on every console, there must be a reason, and some of these games must surely be worth it, or on a long enough timeline, the PS3 will be profitable, and 2. The camp that sees that Sony is losing money on every console and doesn't really seem to have anything to yank attention back to their system.
The first camp is, technically, correct. On a long enough timeline, the PS3 may make money, but not for Sony. It's like people who buy old consoles...sure in ten years when everyone's shelled out money for another system, you may very well find a market for them (check eBay for price on vintage consoles), but I'm just not seeing it THIS console cycle. Especially if Sony's losing money on every console sold. How long can they keep it up?
Likewise, that list of games...well...Maybe I just don't know what some of those games are...but Killzone 2? Unreal? That's not really bringing anything new to the table. I played the original Killzone and it was pretty, but it had a lot of problems. There's a lot of buzz around the sequel for a targetted audience, but when I shoot the shit with my buddies at work, no one's ass twitches for Killzone 2. It doesn't own the conversation.
And people will STILL look at each and every game and say "Is this worth 600 bucks?" even if they have four or five games they'd prefer to play on the PS3. Each and every game has the onus of the $600 console price tag. It's bad marketing, and it's a longshot gamble that probably won't pay off, even if the yuppie gamers and niche markets (Final Fantasy, MGS, etc) home in on it. The 360 doesn't even have to have FANTASTIC BADASS KILLER APPS as much because...that's right...no $600 price tag. I know people get tired of hearing about the $600 price tag, lord knows Sony wishes people would get over it, but there you go.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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Mooj had this to say about Duck Tales:
Ah, personal attacks and "scorned fanboy rage". Maybe I need to start calling people Sonyfags to get on your level? I dunno.
I don't know if your unwarranted and overwhelming negativity towards Sony is any better
The 360 had similar library issues at this point in its lifecycle and it's completely unfair to hold the PS3 to different standards. Fal posted a link to support this earlier. I stand by my claim that the PS3's only problem going into it's second year is price. It's doing a lot of the same things as the 360, but it's doing some of them a little better (PSN's openness, supporting Epic with mods) and some of them a bit worse (PSN is a little weak, etc).
The Playstation 3 will likely be this generation's Xbox (not in terms of being #2 in sales, I meant in terms of being late to market and having a solid fanbase with some solid games). It will have a few solid titles and quite a few cross platform titles, but it won't win the sales race. It's way too late for that. The Wii will win in terms of console sales and the 360 will have games that are actually targeted to gamers. This is more or less what you said, and I agree with that. I just don't agree with this SONY SUCKS AND THEY'RE DOOMED thing you seem to have going
At this point in time, there is very little reason to choose PS3 over 360. I admit that and as a 360 owner this year is going to be very good. This is the result of Microsoft rushing to market with a holiday 2005 release. They knew that being out for longer would give them the edge over Sony's more powerful (even if it's only marginally so) machine. The other result of Microsoft rushing to market is hardware that likes to fail sometimes due to a lack of proper testing, but hey at least the games are great!
Sony Defense Force assemble! Kegwen fucked around with this message on 07-16-2007 at 10:29 AM.
Fact is, cutting the price by $100 will move systems. Already is, in fact. And if you take a look at this Fall/Winter's upcoming games, you'll know there's some AAA titles hitting the shelves. People who have been on the fence about Sony are most likely making a move to take advantage of the price cut while they can. Add in the extra promise of a good few months of solid titles and you've got yourself money in the bank.
What goes hand in hand with this is market penetration. Getting more PS3s out there can only be a good thing. Word of mouth and communal experiences will serve to sell even more PS3s. When the lower priced SKUs sell out, people will most likely be more willing to drop $600 thanks to the increased penetration.
Just a theory though
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x--BlackenedO-('-'Q) :
increased penetration.
Some cell phone company in the UK is giving away 60GB PS3's if you stay on their plan for 2 months.
I'm looking at amazon.com at the bottom is a list of games releases.
July 3 - Port (cmon, they are still trying to hype Ninja Gaiden, the game is sweet, but does anyone really care if its shinier?
July 10 - Cross Platform
July 17 - Cross Platform
July 24 - No PS3 Releases
July 31 - No PS3 Releases
Aug 7 - No PS3 Releases
The older stuff has alot of cross platform or comparable games likes sports or fighters and even JRPGs are all available on the 360.
Whats the point of the PS3 when the X-Box does the same thing, but with more games, a vastly superior online service, a larger customer base which leads to an easier time finding people to actually play with on its better online service, and a whole big pile of former exclusives now available on the X-Box.
But hey, you guys still have FF13, the way things are going though I wouldn't be suprised if FF14 was on the X-Box 720.
Until you realize you can only play two games.
They're starting to assist developers in optimizing code for the PS3 - something they've always been kind of bad about in the past.
One of the reasons UT3 is going to support mods only for the PS3 release is because Sony isn't as tightassed about user-created content as MS or Nintendo.
Also, future support for keyboard/mouse control of FPS games which Microsoft has stated time and again they absolutely will not allow.
I can't say as how I like the 80GB unit for $599 but if sales decrease THAT much they'll probably offer an un-bundled version that's cheaper. In reality, people are only paying $40 more for the upgraded hard drive, the unit also comes bundled with a $60 game that I've heard is pretty good, though the load times can be kind of annoying.
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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
words.
the 360 sucked at the same point in its life cycle but yeah there's no good reason to have a PS3 right now Kegwen fucked around with this message on 07-17-2007 at 05:54 PM.
However,
The 360 didn't have a next gen competitor and microsoft had time to build up a user base and a game library which starts the cycle of developers being able to have a reasonable idea of how much a market is available for them. Sony doesn't have this luxury, and it seems silly to compare the era's of the systems independently of when they came out and how that affects future abilty to get/keep exclusive and/or new franchises and deliver a gaming experience between two systems that, for all intents and purposes, play the exact same kinds of games.
As far as I can see it, the only important difference between them are that the PS3 costs more, has less games out, less games coming in the near future, and natch for online.
Sports and Racing are easily available on both systems, almost universally the same game. What does the extra hundred bucks the PS3 costs doing for me?
Microsoft has exclusive that matter.
Sony does not.
Final Fantasy and MGS4 aren't out right now, soooo doesnt count into whether someones buying the system tomorrow.
Keg, TV adds are showing Ninja Gaiden port with some idiot saying "The real reason you bought a PS3"
I cry 
