quote:
Ruvyen had this to say about Optimus Prime:
. . .That's a reason to whine about mages, not warriors.
Warriors being weak.
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Naimah had this to say about John Romero:
Warriors being weak.
Warriors are fine. So one class could steamroll us in PvP. That doesn't say anything about the other eight classes any particular warrior will be fighting.
WoW uses a rock-paper-scissors PvP scheme. Mage owns warrior, rogue owns mage, warrior owns rogue. The problem was, mages weren't owning warriors nearly to the extent that warriors were owning rogues. Blizz "fixed" it by throwing in those trinkets. . .what were they called, ZHC and ToEP? The problem wasn't that mages could now one-shot warriors (after all, warriors can currently one-shot casters!), the problem with this fix was it was based entirely on the trinkets, which is pretty stupid.
Basically, mages owned us. So? Us warriors tear through rogues, and cloth casters under the right conditions, like they're nothing. Why shouldn't there be at least one class that can do the same to us?
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Ruvyen was all like:
Warriors are fine. So one class could steamroll us in PvP. That doesn't say anything about the other eight classes any particular warrior will be fighting.WoW uses a rock-paper-scissors PvP scheme. Mage owns warrior, rogue owns mage, warrior owns rogue. The problem was, mages weren't owning warriors nearly to the extent that warriors were owning rogues. Blizz "fixed" it by throwing in those trinkets. . .what were they called, ZHC and ToEP? The problem wasn't that mages could now one-shot warriors (after all, warriors can currently one-shot casters!), the problem with this fix was it was based entirely on the trinkets, which is pretty stupid.
Basically, mages owned us. So? Us warriors tear through rogues, and cloth casters under the right conditions, like they're nothing. Why shouldn't there be at least one class that can do the same to us?
Nobody at Blizzard has ever agreed, or even mentioned first, this fabled rock-paper-scissors balance. Which is flawed in of itself, because there are more than three distinct class balances.
Even of the three cloth wearers (Priest, Mage, Warlock) none of them share even the slightest PVP similarities.
Leather; Rogue, Druid, and pre-40 Hunter/Druid.. again, not a single one.
Mail? Plate? Again, none are even close to eachother. Sean fucked around with this message on 04-04-2006 at 11:04 PM.
It's not something people hear about.
quote:
Nobody really understood why Ruvyen wrote:
. . .That's a reason to whine about mages, not warriors.
The ones who whine about warriors sucking.
quote:
Ruvyen impressed everyone with:
Warriors are fine. So one class could steamroll us in PvP. That doesn't say anything about the other eight classes any particular warrior will be fighting.WoW uses a rock-paper-scissors PvP scheme. Mage owns warrior, rogue owns mage, warrior owns rogue. The problem was, mages weren't owning warriors nearly to the extent that warriors were owning rogues. Blizz "fixed" it by throwing in those trinkets. . .what were they called, ZHC and ToEP? The problem wasn't that mages could now one-shot warriors (after all, warriors can currently one-shot casters!), the problem with this fix was it was based entirely on the trinkets, which is pretty stupid.
Basically, mages owned us. So? Us warriors tear through rogues, and cloth casters under the right conditions, like they're nothing. Why shouldn't there be at least one class that can do the same to us?
Do mages have a decided advantage over warriors? Yes. But it is still a balancing act of trying to keep the warrior at range while still managing to do enough dmg to the warrior before he inevitably catches up and slaps a hamstring on at which point the mage has to sheep and start over. Is it a win if you execute perfectly? Yes. Is it still a challenge against a warrior that knows what he's doing? Hell yes.
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Ruvyen thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Mage owns warrior, rogue owns mage, warrior owns rogue.
That's almost completely debatable.
First one depends on the skill and equipment of both the warrior and the mage. If a mage can straight up fry a warrior, the mage will win. If a warrior can touch the mage, and has a decent enough weapon, generally the warrior will win.
Rogue owning mage? Eh. No. Not likely. The only way a rogue will own a mage is if the rogue has good weapons, and the mage isn't in a decent set of armor (in other words, mostly greens/crappy blues). As far as I know, EVERY class in the game atm will be able to crush a rogue even after a stealth attack is pulled off if they are equipped well. Rogues are nasty simply because of Stun-lock (which effects most classes equally) and are pretty damn useful when teamed up with other players.
Warrior owning rogue? That, is pure truth. 
I hit the guy maybe twice, took him to 30% and he'd just sprint, vanish, blind, gouge, repeat. But unless they do all this, I can usually destroy them.
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There was much rejoicing when Snoota said this:
This bug is just annoying and easily avoided.And it amuses me to no end that Warriors whine about their class.
It aint avoidable at all, nor a mere annoyance. It being broken severely gimps my rage generation No rage = no damage, or worse yet when tanking for a group... no sunder armor taunt! ;P
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A sleep deprived Led stammered:
It aint avoidable at all, nor a mere annoyance. It being broken severely gimps my rage generationNo rage = no damage, or worse yet when tanking for a group... no sunder armor taunt! ;P
I did just fine without even ever getting the talent.
You can too!
The only thing that can really gimp them is Warlocks, and even then, it's a hard one.
Rogues: Duh.
Hunters: Duh.
Shamans: Maybe a little harder, due to the slows, but Intercept and Hamstring can work wonders.
Mages: With fire resist gear, a Warrior is virtually immune to a Mage of any kind.
Paladin: Just ignore them. They can't hurt you.
Priest: Once Fear Bomb is over, just kill them, MS totally removes them.
Druids: MS + Hamstring = Dead
Mages aren't too bad off atm, I think. I might get flamed for it and I'm a little surprised I'm saying it, but I think one of the most gimped characters is the Rogue.
Dagger Rogues I destroy, not a contest really.
Combat Rogues destroy me, again it's not really a contest. No way to really counter an evasion tanking combat rogue with adren rush when they have bloodfang gloves and their PVP trinket up.
Mages I beat more often then not even if they have do the trinket + ap thing. However there is one Mage on my server that just destroys me and he doesn't use either AP or TOEP/ZHC. He knows when to silence a Warrior.
I feel bad for Priests & Warlocks after dueling them.
Shamans are a mixed bag, if they're the 2h wielding warrior wannabies they're a free kill. If they're the shield using type that wears me down and uses their mana for almost only heals I can't beat them.
Paladins I can't beat unless they're retarded retnoobs or severely undergeared.
My duels with Hunters depend if they're stupid enough to leave their pet up. If they dismiss it before hand I can't beat the multiple trap kiting tricks. If they do leave their pet up then they lose.
Druids.. I think I've heard of those things before but I don't think I've ever actually seen one ingame.
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Mr. Parcelan wrote:
Warriors are probably the least-broken class right now, imo.The only thing that can really gimp them is Warlocks, and even then, it's a hard one.
Rogues: Duh.
Hunters: Duh.
Shamans: Maybe a little harder, due to the slows, but Intercept and Hamstring can work wonders.
Mages: With fire resist gear, a Warrior is virtually immune to a Mage of any kind.
Paladin: Just ignore them. They can't hurt you.
Priest: Once Fear Bomb is over, just kill them, MS totally removes them.
Druids: MS + Hamstring = DeadMages aren't too bad off atm, I think. I might get flamed for it and I'm a little surprised I'm saying it, but I think one of the most gimped characters is the Rogue.
Mage problems are primarily in PvE at the moment. Reaching the point where we can only use Arcane Missles is kinda lame.
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Mr. Parcelan got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
I think one of the most gimped characters is the Rogue.
Haha.
I just thought of something funny.
Eviscerate does the same thing at level 56 with a green dagger as the monkey as it does at 60 with full bloodfang and a rank 14 whatever. Slowly becomes more as more worthless as gear improves.
Rupture.. lol
S&D scales with gear but the duration is so long with the talent that you gain more combo points then you can use on it.
Kidney Shot doesn't scale and doesn't need to but it's worthless in most PVE fights.
quote:
This one time, at Naj camp:
The #1 problem with Rogues is that finishers don't really scale.Eviscerate does the same thing at level 56 with a green dagger as the monkey as it does at 60 with full bloodfang and a rank 14 whatever. Slowly becomes more as more worthless as gear improves.
Rupture.. lol
S&D scales with gear but the duration is so long with the talent that you gain more combo points then you can use on it.
Kidney Shot doesn't scale and doesn't need to but it's worthless in most PVE fights.
If Eviscerate scaled, cloth would become an even finer red mist when you killed them.
With the way itemization is going, it'll soon* be smarter for a Rogue to backstab/SS then evis even if they already have 5 combo points.
I deleted my Rogue awhile ago so I could use the name for my 29 WSG horde twink on my second account. D:
*by the time the next raid instance is released and cleared by my guess
quote:
Naj attempted to be funny by writing:
I'm sure you see the problem though.With the way itemization is going, it'll soon* be smarter for a Rogue to backstab/SS then evis even if they already have 5 combo points.
I deleted my Rogue awhile ago so I could use the name for my 29 WSG horde twink on my second account. D:
*by the time the next raid instance is released and cleared by my guess
Fireblast has already reached this point. This isn't a problem with just Rogues. Abilities don't scale up with each other in WoW, that is probably one of its largest problems at the moment.
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Naimah impressed everyone with:
Fireblast has already reached this point. This isn't a problem with just Rogues. Abilities don't scale up with each other in WoW, that is probably one of its largest problems at the moment.
The Mage combat system doesn't revolve around Fireblast, it's not comparable
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Naj had this to say about (_|_):
The Mage combat system doesn't revolve around Fireblast, it's not comparable
Don't kid yourself.
Mage PVP is 75% reliant on instant cast spells.
It's not something people hear about.
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Sean had this to say about dark elf butts:
Don't kid yourself.Mage PVP is 75% reliant on instant cast spells.
I'd say even more than that. The only long spell they can really afford to use is Polymorph. Everything else, in WSG, at least, people will just have moved out of range by the time its pulled off.
Though a Blizzard and Flamestrike can be awesome at the chokepoints in AV.
quote:
Sean Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Don't kid yourself.Mage PVP is 75% reliant on instant cast spells.
And Rogue PVP and PVE is supposed to completely revolve around the combo point system which is falling apart due to finishers slowly becoming worthless due to the inability to improve on them outside of the 5/5 DD set bonus.
Fireblast becoming obsolete and Eviscerate becoming obsolete is not comparable.
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This insanity brought to you by Mr. Parcelan:
I'd say even more than that. The only long spell they can really afford to use is Polymorph. Everything else, in WSG, at least, people will just have moved out of range by the time its pulled off.Though a Blizzard and Flamestrike can be awesome at the chokepoints in AV.
Sometimes you get a Fireball or Frostbolt off at the beginning of a fight. 
That's also why a lot of Mages are afraid of their talent patch coming up; PoM and AP together are a defining point of a mage's offensive ability, and Blizzard knows it. We're gonna lose one, especially since Priests have their own AP now.
It's not something people hear about.
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Check out the big brain on Snoota!
I did just fine without even ever getting the talent.You can too!
Correct. The talent is not a HUGE thing, but...
You have a MS specced warrior, right? The chance for one more rage point every three and a half seconds is no big deal at all. However for a berserker bunny like me, who swings two weapons much faster, and then much faster still with flurry, the extra rage points really help. My raw damage is not as high, so we depend on the extra rage to spam heroic strike more often.
I see fury as less of 'OMG DPS' (which math proves fury dps > MS), and more as 'greater flexibility'. My single hits may not be anywhere as large, but I (used to) have more rage with which to hamstring, sunder, intercept, whatever!
So not only is UW being broken gimping my damage output, it is also gimping my ability to do much of anything else, which is one of the prime reasons for going fury in the first place ;P To me, the incredibly slow pace of 2h fighting (swing... swing... swing... /cry) bores me to tears. I like having faster paced combat with more buttons to push.
If this was a direct nerf (which would be the second nerf to UW actually), then I would just take my licks and keep on going. However, this is not a nerf, this is an actual completely broken skill. Which is actually affecting another talent in an entirely seperate tree, AND breaking one of the bonuses on the Might armor set. Then they come around and refuse to fix it in a timely manner. Not only is it breaking my playstyle, it is breaking my fun
Spells with very little casting time, and spells you don't bother casting.
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Leding:
(which math proves fury dps > MS)
What math IS that? I ran into this issue before, I just can't see where the DPS in fury comes from. Most of the things people point to rely on someone getting a melee crit on you, and I really wouldn't want to have to rely on that.
In fact, a very (well, VERY VERY) well geared DW fury warrior will outstrip rogues in term of DPS ;P The hits may never be as large, but in PvE you get to sit in front of the mob and beat on it all day anyways.
The beauty of MS spec is that you only have to worry about being in range for that one swing every three seconds. I have lost more than a few fights because I have only been able to get my hands on a target for a split second, and their larger slower hits just outstripped my damage ;x
And enrage? MS specs usually include it. In fact, MS is the reason enrage got nerfed Of course, why they nerfed a fury talent because of an arms talent is a whole nother flame thread entirely...
quote:That's only half of it. The other, more important part is called frontloading damage. If you can't frontload big amounts of damage within a short time in PvP you're not going to consistantly do well. This is another reason why Fury is, and always has, been lacking in PvP.
Led.
The beauty of MS spec is that you only have to worry about being in range for that one swing every three seconds.
Btw, if someone is seriously out of range of you and picking you apart with large melee swings then you need to get on that hamstring/intercept more. Srsly.
Edit - Also, enrage was nerfed 75% due to new items coming into the hands of MS warriors. The fact they were specced MS with it really isn't important. Their white damage, as well as other attacks like whirlwind and overpower, plus MS with bigger two hand weapons caused a bit of a problem with Enrage. Blackened fucked around with this message on 04-05-2006 at 03:26 PM.
I also don't see what fury talents actually give you more rage... apart from the ones that we know now are bugged Maradon! fucked around with this message on 04-05-2006 at 03:28 PM.
quote:grandma, just what are you smoking? 5/5 enrage with MS is perfectly possible and also a damn good thing to have.
Maradon!.
Well, if you've got MS it's only possible to get 3/5 enrage, and given that enrage really most benefits fast swingers which MS'ers ain't, an MS build would probably be benefitted more by throwing those 3 points into arms or even prot. Getting 5/5 to 2h spec or Iron Will would be much better.
quote:Improved beserker rage is all I can care to remember right now, because it sucks.
I also don't see what fury talents actually give you more rage... apart from the ones that we know now are bugged
Edit - also, 2h weapon spec is part of a cookie cutter MS build you are smoking something Blackened fucked around with this message on 04-05-2006 at 03:32 PM.
And I actually do pretty well in spite of my fury spec I think ;x I know for sure in PvE that groups LOVE how I can sunder armor a lot more than arms specced warriors 
And by the way, improved berserker rage is AWSOME. 10 free rage! Which is awsome all by itself, however what really makes me 
it is how it pretty much means a free intercept or execute every 30 seconds 
Charge + bloodrage + berserker rage = BUNNY SMASH!#%
quote:I'm not saying Fury is a gimp build for gimp fags who like cock like Sean because boy does he love the cock. Hell I would love to have a end-game Fury warrior myself because they sound fun (after they removed the +to hit cap). I'm just saying MS is always going to be better for PvP because of simple mechanics until they swap some shit around.
Led.
And I actually do pretty well in spite of my fury spec I think ;x I know for sure in PvE that groups LOVE how I can sunder armor a lot more than arms specced warriors
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Blackened was all like:
I'm not saying Fury is a gimp build for gimp fags who like cock like Sean because boy does he love the cock. Hell I would love to have a end-game Fury warrior myself because they sound fun (after they removed the +to hit cap). I'm just saying MS is always going to be better for PvP because of simple mechanics until they swap some shit around.
I don't have a Warrior. 
It's not something people hear about.
quote:No but you do love the cock!
Sean.
I don't have a Warrior.
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Peanut butter ass Shaq Blackened booooze lime pole over bench lick:
grandma, just what are you smoking? 5/5 enrage with MS is perfectly possible and also a damn good thing to have.
To have BOTH 5/5 2h spec AND 5/5 enrage in an MS build, you'd need to give up something - either imp overpower or 2/5 of your weapon spec, and I'm definately not convinced that trading either of those for 5/5 enrage would be at all beneficial.
In fact, I think you'd be waaay better off taking all points out of enrage and getting 3/3 imp hamstring
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Maradon! had this to say about Optimus Prime:
To have BOTH 5/5 2h spec AND 5/5 enrage in an MS build, you'd need to give up something - either imp overpower or 2/5 of your weapon spec, and I'm definately not convinced that trading either of those for 5/5 enrage would be at all beneficial.In fact, I think you'd be waaay better off taking all points out of enrage and getting 3/3 imp hamstring
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Naj impressed everyone with:
The Mage combat system doesn't revolve around Fireblast, it's not comparable
Ok, then how about Arcane Explosion, Flamestrike, Cone of Cold, and Blizzard? All of these are 'class defining' abilities that do not scale well.
quote:
Naimah, what the hell are you doin' out here? You oughta be in bed.
Ok, then how about Arcane Explosion, Flamestrike, Cone of Cold, and Blizzard? All of these are 'class defining' abilities that do not scale well.
You don't like +100 damage/healing only accounting for +2 per cast of arcane explosion?
Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth, seriously. 
It's not something people hear about.
quote:
Maradon!'s unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
To have BOTH 5/5 2h spec AND 5/5 enrage in an MS build, you'd need to give up something - either imp overpower or 2/5 of your weapon spec, and I'm definately not convinced that trading either of those for 5/5 enrage would be at all beneficial.In fact, I think you'd be waaay better off taking all points out of enrage and getting 3/3 imp hamstring
Don't care much for weapon specs, personally.
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Maradon! had this to say about pies:
So instead if giving up 2/5 of a weapon spec, you've given up something better?
I take it you're referring to Deflection? Ohnoes, I have 3% less chance to parry whatever will I do
If I'm going to be tanking, I'm going to be loading up on defense and parry anyway (as well as dodge and block). I don't see an extra 3% affecting much. Parry isn't very useful in PvP, either, as it does absolutely nothing against magic damage.
