I am personally a fan of NES games just because I remember so fondly getting it as my first system when I was a little kid. I didn't have it for that long, but I loved it and I think that influenced a lot what I go looking for in gaming today. I've been reverting back to older stuff all the time.
I appreciate the insane graphics that keep coming out to an extent, but honestly, I think it's overrated. That's my opinion.
What's yours? Mr. Gainsborough fucked around with this message on 10-24-2005 at 12:11 AM.
Peter fucked around with this message on 10-24-2005 at 12:20 AM.
FPS games are similar. For a while Wolf3d was the standard by which they were judged, then Doom came out and removed the "square building" aspect, then it was on to Quake where it became an actual 3d environment. When people want to sit down and rank FPS games, they come back to the 'classics' in general. Whichever game it was that introduced "function X" (such as the realism and "omfg I can see my reflection in this pool of blood!" in Unreal) is where the bar is set.
It takes quite a bit to get me really excited about a game. I had a copy of Return to Castle Wolfenstein sitting in a CD binder for quite a while before I decided to play it. I wasn't impressed. 
However No One Lives Forever is one I go back to every so often because it was funny.
Eventually I'll get around to beating Anachronox.
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We were all impressed when Peter wrote:
I see no option for older PC games. Piss poor Graphics they had, more content than many modern games could hope, the classic era Origin and Lucasarts game were untouchable- Ultima 5, 6, All of 7, Underworld, Wing Commander, Strike Commander, Privateer, Monkey Island, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Maniac Mansion, Day of The Tentacle, Sam and Max Hit the Road, X-wing, TIE Fighter, Full Throttle, hell even Loom.
I was crushed when Full Throttle 2 was killed. 
Sorry for not specifying.
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NullDevice painfully thought these words up:
I was crushed when Full Throttle 2 was killed.
Me too, I Rember Full throttle being one of the first games to have really good sound, Hell Lucas arts had sound quality going for them for a while, The CD "talkie" versions of Sam And Max are amazeing when you look at what stuff was like at the time, and consoles didn't even catch up to the concept till what, the PS2?
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Skaw thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
90-94. More refined visuals from 85-89, with much more story telling capability.
This, although Chrono Trigger came out in 1995.
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Nobody really understood why Peter wrote:
Me too, I Rember Full throttle being one of the first games to have really good sound, Hell Lucas arts had sound quality going for them for a while, The CD "talkie" versions of Sam And Max are amazeing when you look at what stuff was like at the time, and consoles didn't even catch up to the concept till what, the PS2?
Basically. I don't remember ANY talking on a game cutscene till the PS2 came around. Granted getting FMV segments in general was enough to keep most people happy back in 97 or so when computers had it back in 95 with Full Throttle (for those who shelled out the cash for a cd drive).
And the speach pack addons for WingCommander2 and Privateer were what... 93? The spoken cutscenes in Dark Forces... Stuff all over the place.
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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into NullDevice who doth quote:
Games in general have gone down hill. Granted we're in a time where most things are "been there, done that" so it's hard to make a game that's just *really* the best. You look at RPG games and the standards by which they're judged are usually boiled down to FF1 and Dragon Warrior (although I personally feel that Phantasy Star 1 beat the shit out of both). Challenge level, length, depth, story, etc. They're generally judged against those that came first.FPS games are similar. For a while Wolf3d was the standard by which they were judged, then Doom came out and removed the "square building" aspect, then it was on to Quake where it became an actual 3d environment. When people want to sit down and rank FPS games, they come back to the 'classics' in general. Whichever game it was that introduced "function X" (such as the realism and "omfg I can see my reflection in this pool of blood!" in Unreal) is where the bar is set.
This has nothing to do with games going downhill. Everything - even things that have improved over time - is judged by it's predecessors.
About the same level of creativity is around as always and about the same number of new ideas come out every year as always, but as always we're jaded to the point of blindness to whatever marvels the present has to offer. We occasionally experience them but some of us refuse to acknowledge them, and instead lionize marvels past or inaccessible to us: anything that we aren't exposed to on a constant daily basis, in other words.
that N64/Playstation time.Unlike the rest of you guys, I was raised kinda poor. Just getting a game system at all was a major feat of negotiation for me, and I never enjoyed SNES RPGs like the rest of you did. They weren't a part of my childhood. The Playstation/N64, though, was. I was introduced through them to a lot of the games I adore - Legend of Dragoon, Breath of Fire 3 and 4, the Final Fantasies - and, though I still wasn't rich enough to purchase every game whimsy desired, that was where the interest paid off.
I did get to experience some SNES love - child-me could become your instant ally at the mention of Mortal Kombat - not so much as other people. Maybe I missed out. I'm never going to know.
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Nicole said:
that N64/Playstation time.
Unlike the rest of you guys, I was raised kinda poor. Just getting a game system at all was a major feat of negotiation for me, and I never enjoyed SNES RPGs like the rest of you did. They weren't a part of my childhood. The Playstation/N64, though, was. I was introduced through them to a lot of the games I adore - Legend of Dragoon, Breath of Fire 3 and 4, the Final Fantasies - and, though I still wasn't rich enough to purchase every game whimsy desired, that was where the interest paid off.
I did get to experience some SNES love - child-me could become your instant ally at the mention of Mortal Kombat - not so much as other people. Maybe I missed out. I'm never going to know.
I never owned an SNES as a kid, but I experienced Chrono Trigger at a friend's house. That game alone makes the era for me. I don't really care about any other SNES RPGs, though I guess I'll give FF3 a shot since I bought it recently and all
nem-x fucked around with this message on 10-24-2005 at 04:28 AM.
I can't really share the love for SNES-era RPGs, all the dialogue in them seems like it was written for a children's cartoon. Soon I will rule the planet with the help of my doomsday machine! Ha ha ha ha ha!, also ... . I tried to play FF6 and Chrono Trigger on an emulator and every time a dialogue box popped up I had the urge to shut the thing off.
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Mod had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
I can't really share the love for SNES-era RPGs, all the dialogue in them seems like it was written for a children's cartoon. Soon I will rule the planet with the help of my doomsday machine! Ha ha ha ha ha!, also ... . I tried to play FF6 and Chrono Trigger on an emulator and every time a dialogue box popped up I had the urge to shut the thing off.
It's pure and simple, rose-colored glasses, nostalgia for those people. Any pre-PSX RPG is absolutely unplayable if you've touched something that came out in the last three years, and even most on the PSX aren't that great anymore.
Some games can of course rise above these faults and maintain some form of lasting greatness, but I'll tell you right now FF4/5/whatever isn't one of them. It's fucking unplayable, pure and simple.
Do not get me started on Chrono Trigger. Those fanboys need some rude awakening, stat. 
It's not something people hear about.
Some games that used to be great back in the day did indeed age badly. But some games still work today. For me at least.
Some examples:
late 80's: SSI Gold and Silver Box series (e.g. Champions of Khrynn, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Buck Rogers)
Early 90's: Wing Commander
Mid 90's: Wing Commander, UFO, Master of Magic
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A sleep deprived NullDevice stammered:
Basically. I don't remember ANY talking on a game cutscene till the PS2 came around. Granted getting FMV segments in general was enough to keep most people happy back in 97 or so when computers had it back in 95 with Full Throttle (for those who shelled out the cash for a cd drive).And the speach pack addons for WingCommander2 and Privateer were what... 93? The spoken cutscenes in Dark Forces... Stuff all over the place.
Conker's Bad Fur Day for N64. It was made in 1999, I believe. There are probably others but that one is chock full of speaking cutscenes.
EDIT: uhhhh... I was off just a little. 2001. eheh. nevermind. kez fucked around with this message on 10-24-2005 at 03:14 PM.
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NullDevice had this to say about Tron:
Basically. I don't remember ANY talking on a game cutscene till the PS2 came around. Granted getting FMV segments in general was enough to keep most people happy back in 97 or so when computers had it back in 95 with Full Throttle (for those who shelled out the cash for a cd drive).
NBA Jam had FMV in it, and I'm pretty sure there were some voices. That was back in 1994. Ok, so those were only intros but it counts... kinda.
If you want to be technical about it and require it during a scene in gameplay, there's FF6 and the opera scene. I shouldn't have to point further than that. You also had Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean that featured large amounts of voice acting.
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Sean obviously shouldn't have said:
Stuff
*shrugs* Most of today's RPGs are no more adult and have no better stories than those of the SNES-era. And hell, being able to put aside your brain for some mindless kiddy stuff is fun sometimes.
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Talonus had this to say about Optimus Prime:
*shrugs* Most of today's RPGs are no more adult and have no better stories than those of the SNES-era. And hell, being able to put aside your brain for some mindless kiddy stuff is fun sometimes.
I never said any of that. 
It's not something people hear about.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Talonus was all like:
*shrugs* Most of today's RPGs are no more adult and have no better stories than those of the SNES-era. And hell, being able to put aside your brain for some mindless kiddy stuff is fun sometimes.
Compare even a non-stellar modern game like Vampire: Bloodlines to something like Chrono Trigger by any standard, story, acting, writing, character customization, gameplay mechanics, balance, pacing, variety,... If you go beyond nostaliga, they don't stand up. Compare it to even one of the itself somewhat dated genere classics like Fallout or Baldur's Gate 2 and it's simply no contest.
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Sean stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
I never said any of that.
Dammit, quoted the wrong person. Curse you.
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A sleep deprived Mod stammered:
Compare even a non-stellar modern game like Vampire: Bloodlines to something like Chrono Trigger by any standard, story, acting, writing, character customization, gameplay mechanics, balance, pacing, variety,... If you go beyond nostaliga, they don't stand up. Compare it to even one of the itself somewhat dated genere classics like Fallout or Baldur's Gate 2 and it's simply no contest.
You're comparing PC games to console games. You can't make that comparison and be fair; there's different audiences and different limitations. Even then, your comparison is off. I could point to a dozen console RPGs for modern systems that have worse everything, except for graphics and even then some are debatable, than older RPGs like Chrono Trigger.
It comes down to preference though. I have no problem playing through older games. I don't care about the graphics (though I'd rather have 2D than early 3D really), and everything else is fine to me. Just because they're not incredibly deep games doesn't mean they're bad games. If you wanted deep games, I don't see how you could buy more than a handful of games a year period really.
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Talonus Model 2000 was programmed to say:
You're comparing PC games to console games. You can't make that comparison and be fair; there's different audiences and different limitations. Even then, your comparison is off. I could point to a dozen console RPGs for modern systems that have worse everything, except for graphics and even then some are debatable, than older RPGs like Chrono Trigger.It comes down to preference though. I have no problem playing through older games. I don't care about the graphics (though I'd rather have 2D than early 3D really), and everything else is fine to me. Just because they're not incredibly deep games doesn't mean they're bad games. If you wanted deep games, I don't see how you could buy more than a handful of games a year period really.
Even keeping with consoles, FFX for example trounces SNES era games in pretty much every department, so do KotoR 1, KotoR 2 and arguably Jade Empire and Morrowind. Mod fucked around with this message on 10-24-2005 at 05:46 PM.
P.S. I felt the same way when I played Chrono Trigger for the first time. I didn't think FFX's story was all that great. The combat was way too easy, also. Music and graphics are obviously more advanced, but show me an up to date version of either of the games I mentioned and I would like them far more than FFX's. 
P.P.S. I enjoyed FFX a lot, so it's just not a grudge against the game.
Games are way too easy! I dunno if it was just the fact that in most old games, if you bought the farm, you had to start the whole damn thing over (I love to hate contra 3 ) or whatever...
For instance, I am actually missing oldschool EQ just because it was hard! I really had no idea what was going on, and if I messed up, everyone died horribly and paid for it too. Whereas in WoW, all you have to do is run back to your corpse and pay some cash to fix your crap.
Mayhaps I am just getting too jaded 
Recently games just seem to be a test of how long you can play them before you get bored.
Or maybe it is just my ADD?
I do very much enjoy Chrono Trigger's storyline, though its writing is often awful or at least poorly translated. I feel an emotional tie to the characters. If an RPG can't achieve that, I consider its storytelling mediocre. FFVII did that. Kingdom Hearts did that. FFX did that, except for Wakka. Fuck him. Anyway, I care about what's happening to them in the context of the story, even as I play it through the 100th time.
I love the gameplay. Double and triple techs? Awesome. Bosses are still difficult to me on the first run through (not New Game+) unless I overprepare for them.
After 10 years, the game is still fun every time I play through it. Hell, as I play through it this week, I've actually had to figure out some things I've forgotten. Side quest stuff, mostly, but not using GameFAQs and having to figure that stuff out again is still fun.
Games like KOTOR, for example, I have no desire to play through again. Hell, I played through as light side the first time and I burnt out on dark side in a matter of hours. Not that the first time wasn't fun, but I don't feel compelled to play it again. Morrowind bored me in a matter of minutes.
FFX was the last RPG I played to completion. Nothing else has been able to compel me to keep playing it, though I have been tempted to find a copy of Disgaea.
So, I don't know guys! Maybe I'm just a blind fanboy that's convinced myself to hate everything else!
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Mod wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Even keeping with consoles, FFX for example trounces SNES era games in pretty much every department, so do KotoR 1, KotoR 2 and arguably Jade Empire and Morrowind.
I'd argue against that, especially with KotOR2 and Jade Empire in that list. Plenty of better games than those. Also, Daggerfall was better than Morrowind and is from that era as well.
Really though, I can make comparisons too. FF6 is better than than FFX-2. Star Ocean is better than Star Ocean 3. Secret of Mana is better than any other Mana (Seiken Densetsu) game, before or after. Contra 3 is better than any PS2 Contra. Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past is better than any other Zelda, before or after. Street Fighter 2 is better than any other Street Fighter game. Super Metroid is better than any other Metroid. Mario Kart is better than any later Mario Kart games. This is just a short list and I'm only making direct comparisons here. I could keep going on with direct comparisons for awhile.
I could make comparisons against the SNES era as well. That's not my point though. There's plenty of older or newer games that are perfectly playable and quite fun. I could also point to plenty of older or newer games that are unplayable, no matter when you first played them. Newer doesn't automatically mean better. To make a broad generalization like that is stupid.
And one note I forgot, these comparisons are just unfair at the base. Older games didn't have the budget or the available translators that newer ones do. I'm sure if FF6 had come out today (without being a SNES era game), it'd be leaps and bounds better than many newer games like FFX2. Talonus fucked around with this message on 10-24-2005 at 06:23 PM.
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Talonus had this to say about Cuba:
I'd argue against that, especially with KotOR2 and Jade Empire in that list. Plenty of better games than those. Also, Daggerfall was better than Morrowind and is from that era as well.Really though, I can make comparisons too. FF6 is better than than FFX-2. Star Ocean is better than Star Ocean 3. Secret of Mana is better than any other Mana (Seiken Densetsu) game, before or after. Contra 3 is better than any PS2 Contra. Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past is better than any other Zelda, before or after. Street Fighter 2 is better than any other Street Fighter game. Super Metroid is better than any other Metroid. Mario Kart is better than any later Mario Kart games. This is just a short list and I'm only making direct comparisons here. I could keep going on with direct comparisons for awhile.
I could make comparisons against the SNES era as well. That's not my point though. There's plenty of older or newer games that are perfectly playable and quite fun. I could also point to plenty of older or newer games that are unplayable, no matter when you first played them. Newer doesn't automatically mean better. To make a broad generalization like that is stupid.
And one note I forgot, these comparisons are just unfair at the base. Older games didn't have the budget or the available translators that newer ones do. I'm sure if FF6 had come out today (without being a SNES era game), it'd be leaps and bounds better than many newer games like FFX2.
I'm not arguing that there aren't utterly shitty games like FFX2 today or that it can't be more fun to mess around on emulators for a few hours rather than trying and force yourself through something like Still Life. I'm arguing that the SNES era of RPGs are getting put on a pedestal a ridiculous amount when they've been long since surpassed. Consle RPGs in general suffer from this since due to the rampart SNES Square fanboyism they're somewhat stuck with outdated gameplay elements that should have been long gone (Random Encounters, minimal character customization, minimal amount of dialogue choices, random encounters, battle screen battles with no positioning, simplistic spell systems, ... ).
Also the average quality of games has gone up over time, even the shitty games of today have more content, better visuals and better gameplay than the shitty games of yesteryear, same for the average games and same for the top games.
Yes, if they released FF6 today, rewrote the whole thing, updated the gameplay, updated the graphics, updated the mechanics and added some voice acting it could be a great game that follows a similar plot but has nothing else to do with the original. If we're comparing the quality of games the circumstances of their creation don't factor into it.
The real dangerous Square fanboys are the ones that thought FF8 was great (just like all their games!!!) and that we're all jackasses who can't appreciate the true awesomeness that is everything Square touches.
I put an immense amount of faith in Square Enix's game design, just as I do with Blizzard. For similar reasons, really. I've come to expect a certain level of quality from their products. There have been exceptions (Final Fantasy 8 and X-2 and to a lesser extent 9 I'm looking at you oh and the Bouncer lol) but for the most part I've enjoyed their products and I guess through that I've come to enjoy their style, even if Mod considers it old fashioned or whatever.
FF4 (at least the HardType version) had challenge, an actual story that was worth keeping up with, generated interest in the characters (beyond "damnit, my mage died again") and still maintained a replay factor that keeps me breaking out the game every so often to play through and beat it again and again. The final fight is always a pain unless I spend mindless hours bloating out all my characters.
FF1 had *high* levels of challenge and pain in it. Mainly because it doesn't hold your hand for shit. You either know the game or you spend hours exploring and looking at things to get from one 'chapter' to the next. It actually had exploration going for it which very few games have had since. Most games more or less tell you where you need to go, or the hints they give you are so transparent it would have taken less time to tell you where to go. The replay factor on it is slightly lower than 4 for the simple fact that it does take so long. I like replaying it and seeing what new and creative ways I can abuse different bugs in the game or how hard I can make it on myself ("Four white mages? It will never work!").
FFX really set a new curve for the game series as a whole, IMO. It doesn't suffer from ChronoTrigger's "Mute Hero" syndrome and it actually gives you a character to play, not a class with some stats as previous games were. Graphics, gameplay, options, extras... everything you've come to expect from the game series is there. Granted when you take things too far, like having 3 characters complete the entire grid, it does make the game 'easy mode', but overall it stands up well. I haven't honestly replayed the game all the way through since I beat it the first time, mostly because I've been too lazy to set things back up.
FFVII was where the game change took place. The characters became more than 1.5 inch tall sprites and looked (generally) human. There was a decent story with the game and overall it was enjoyable. I replayed it several times till I lost my PC version of it. For those who bitch about the amount of reading required in FF1 and FF4, why does VII not make the list? There's just as much reading in VII as there was in 4 if not more since the game is longer.
The rest of the series is not really worth discussing, IMO, except to say that FFX2 ranks down near FFVIII. Beautiful game, but I want a RPG, not a dressup game. 
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Talonus probably says this to all the girls:
And one note I forgot, these comparisons are just unfair at the base. Older games didn't have the budget or the available translators that newer ones do. I'm sure if FF6 had come out today (without being a SNES era game), it'd be leaps and bounds better than many newer games like FFX2.
That is like saying it isn't fair that my soapbox is completly outclassed by an F1. If they are able to collect additional funds to increase their production value to 10x or 100x what they were able to do 10 years ago more power to them.
The best thing to do would probably be to put this old good games aside and call them classics. Just like Casablanca or The Birds, they were good in their day and deserve to be commended for it. However, if judged without any predisposition against a modern product the newer would win out simply because advances in the art. FF6 and CT were incredible for their time, ground breaking in many fashions, however it is difficult to objectivly call them better in any but the narrowest dimensions.
I look back on the Atari 2600 Tron game, Duck Hunt, and Super Mario World with fond memories. However, at the same time, I look forward to what the next generation is going to bring us in the way of innovation and natural progression of the art.
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Talonus had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
FF6 is better than than FFX-2.Street Fighter 2 is better than any other Street Fighter game. Super Metroid is better than any other Metroid. Mario Kart is better than any later Mario Kart games.
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FUCK. MOTHERFUCKING SHIT. DO YOU FUCKING KNOW HOW FUCKING STUPID YOU ARE? SHIT. FUCK. It's not your fault, NullDevice.
FF 4 > FF1 > FFX > FFVII >>>>> the rest of the series.
You're both fucking retarded.
It's not something people hear about.
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Leding:
Games are way too easy!
Ninja Gaiden Black, both the new Contra games...
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Check out the big brain on Mod!
I'm not arguing that there aren't utterly shitty games like FFX2 today or that it can't be more fun to mess around on emulators for a few hours rather than trying and force yourself through something like Still Life. I'm arguing that the SNES era of RPGs are getting put on a pedestal a ridiculous amount when they've been long since surpassed. Consle RPGs in general suffer from this since due to the rampart SNES Square fanboyism they're somewhat stuck with outdated gameplay elements that should have been long gone (Random Encounters, minimal character customization, minimal amount of dialogue choices, random encounters, battle screen battles with no positioning, simplistic spell systems, ... ).Also the average quality of games has gone up over time, even the shitty games of today have more content, better visuals and better gameplay than the shitty games of yesteryear, same for the average games and same for the top games.
Yes, if they released FF6 today, rewrote the whole thing, updated the gameplay, updated the graphics, updated the mechanics and added some voice acting it could be a great game that follows a similar plot but has nothing else to do with the original. If we're comparing the quality of games the circumstances of their creation don't factor into it.
Oh, I'll agree that gamers put SNES era RPGs on a pedestal. Nostalgia rules over good sense in general. It doesn't make these games bad though. It just makes them old. *shrugs* And I can see the reason for Square love. They're one of the few companies that puts out consistently average or above average games today. Back in the SNES days, they actually put out RPGs that were good. When there weren't many RPGs back then, a good game is something to cause players to remember it. That's why gamers who play Square games backwards (newer to older) don't look at FF6, FF4, or FF9 with the same fondness of the legions of FFX/FF7 whores.
I wouldn't say the average quality of games has gone up. More games are released now, so there's a greater chance for good games. Plus, the removal of many limitations of the machines also lends to this. Hell, going from carts to CD-ROM, DVD, etc is a major boon to the developer. There's still plenty of shitty games though, moreso than in yesteryear simply because there's more games released.
I didn't mean FF6 needed to be rewritten. Update the graphics. Update the battle system to the current Square battle system. Perfectly good game right there.
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We were all impressed when Sean wrote:
You're both fucking retarded.
You're honestly going to say you prefered that piece of shit X-2 over FF6? You're going to say Double Dash is better than Mario Kart? Ok, I took it a bit far with the Street Fighter comment, but I'll admit nostalgia won me over there.
