quote:
Tegadil stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
The only stun I know of is Charge, or Revenge/Maces with the correct talents. The only casting disruption move I have is Shield Bash, with a cooldown of about 12 seconds and it prevents casting from the interrupted school for 6. Hamstring and Piercing Howl are the two movement restriction moves.There's a couple of other utility moves, consisting of Sunder Armor (can be stacked 5 times for massive -AC), Disarm, Bloodrage (10 rage instantly, 10 over 10 seconds), Intimidating Shout (fear, kind of), Demoralizing Shout or Battle Shout (-attack and +attack respectively), and Thunderclap (lower enemy attack speed).
Look up the Piercing Howl talent for Warriors.
Zaggon likes it quite a bit.
Willias fucked around with this message on 12-25-2004 at 02:30 AM.
Edit: Also, there is Mortal Strike from Arms talents, and Concussion Blow from from Protection talents. Just sucks that the awesome abilities are from talents. :/
One of the paladins best talents is from its holy tree.
Divine Favor 2 min cooldown.
Your next Holy Light or Flash of Light is a critical.
Combo this with 5 points in the talent that makes all your critical heals give you back cost, and it turns into nearly a lay on hands every 2 minutes. My paladin healing for 900 with holy 5, is a beautiful thing.
True, Shield Wall makes us nearly invulnerable (nearly), Retaliation makes us counter-attack every attack (goodbye rogues), and Recklessness makes every attack a critical (goodbye mages) but we can use ONE each half hour (they're all subject to global cooldown).
Paladins get three abilities that make them completely invulnerable with a non-global cooldown of five minutes. Lame.
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A sleep deprived Elvish Crack Piper stammered:
Do mocking blow force PCs to target you? IT doesnt generate rage it says it forces a target.
No. I tried it out as soon as I got the ability.
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We were all impressed when Mr. Parcelan wrote:Paladins get three abilities that make them completely invulnerable with a non-global cooldown of five minutes. Lame.
3? Whats the third? Divine shield and divine protection run on the same timer.
Retaliation + shield wall would be insanely silly, even once a half hour.
Seems like once a half hour you get to kill target rogue target clothcaster or survive target attack whenever.
Id love to be able to do that kind of damage.
Still, I dont see why they couldnt be moved to seperate timers, at least for shield wall, keeping retaliate and reckless on same timer maybe, they are at least similiar, shield wall is crazy though.
Warriors are the higher damage tank types who can hold aggro better.
Paladins are the higher defense who can do support spellcasting.
Eh.
Also, that sucks taeldin, would be a pretty cool ability, fairly easy to gank with it though. Force Target, I chain heal you, mage nukes them to death.
Again, not lame. Its one of the main points of playing the class.
Paladins shouldn't have the same defense as a Warrior.
You can't spell Warrior without 'war'. Warriors are made to take hits and deal hits better than any other tank class. That's how it should be. They need to be tougher than Paladins and Druids.
Paladins are made to fill two roles with one character. They're tanks, but they shouldn't be on par with Warriors.
Warriors have damage dealing abilities and debuffers.
Paladins have invulnerabilities that make them unbeatable in PvP, insta-heals, the ability to save other members instantly, an instant never-fail stun, heals, seals, buffs (a Haste AND attack buff), AC buffs and you want them to get higher AC than a Warrior? They're already approaching Warrior DPS.
No.
Paladins are not unbeatable in PvP. Especially not if you act sensibly around them. In battlegrounds this should be made evident when we get some better data regarding group PvP expierience.
2 seals are used regularly, Crusader and Command, and command is misleading anyway. 2 Blessing is used regularly, plus attack and immune to physical damage.
Warriors should have some sort of stun on part with the hammer.
Warriors should have higher DPS, by... at least 20%. Blizzard doesnt think so though. That last patch really owned you. Warriors need to do more damage, eh.
When did druids come into this? The whole discussion with them was cheese root followed by nukeing.
Paladins - defense orientated
Warriors - offense orientated
Warriors dont have the offensive oomph? Eh. High level people have said they like warriors better for grouping at high levels, and that paladins are that paladins are only useful during the boss fight (every heal counts at that point)
Paladins are going to have higher AC than a warrior, aside from the various levels of devotion aura, we can spend 10 points, get a slightly bigger devotion aura and 10% total armor increase from items.
We can save one party member from physical damage once every 5 minutes. Thats along time in an instance if we arent going to wait for my invulns to reset.
Give back warriors the 20% damage boost in berserker, keep the crit modifier, hell, increase it to a 5% bonus. Blizard split the tank job into two parts, offense and defense. Deal with it.
First of all, Druids in bear form are designed to be viable tanks.
Paladins aren't supposed to be on par with Warriors. Warriors are the bare-bones tank. Paladins should be as tough as a Warrior after their buffs and stuff, not as is.
The tank job is two parts, sure, but Warriors should do both parts better than a Paladin.
A Warrior should do more damage than a Paladin, a Warrior should have more HP than a Paladin, a Warrior should take hits better than a Paladin.
The trade off? The Paladin can buff the whole party with auras, seals and blessings. The Paladin can heal. The Paladin can instantly save members. The Paladin (at least, a well-played one) is unbeatable in PvP.
Aside from buffs to Warriors, the grossly overpowered Paladin, who can currently do all of the above and can also beat out a Warrior at his base game, needs to be nerfed.
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Willias was listening to Cher while typing:
Look up the Piercing Howl talent for Warriors.Zaggon likes it quite a bit.
Edit: Also, there is Mortal Strike from Arms talents, and Concussion Blow from from Protection talents. Just sucks that the awesome abilities are from talents. :/
I saw piercing howl. It makes we want to go up the fury tree, 
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Tegadil was all like:
I saw piercing howl. It makes we want to go up the fury tree,
Fury tree is useless, Piercing Howl doubly so.
It only Dazes, it doesn't stun. Daze = decrease in movement speed, not in attack speed. It's useful if you get in over your head in a fight, but it's not worth the talent points.
If you want an AE stun, just make a Tauren.
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Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Duck Tales:
Fury tree is useless, Piercing Howl doubly so.It only Dazes, it doesn't stun. Daze = decrease in movement speed, not in attack speed. It's useful if you get in over your head in a fight, but it's not worth the talent points.
If you want an AE stun, just make a Tauren.
I know what it is, I just would love to have an AE daze move. Other than that, I really don't see anything useful in Fury past tier 2.
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Tegadil had this to say about Knight Rider:
I know what it is, I just would love to have an AE daze move. Other than that, I really don't see anything useful in Fury past tier 2.
You'll never live to see your next birthday.
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Mr. Parcelan probably says this to all the girls:
Wrong.First of all, Druids in bear form are designed to be viable tanks.
Paladins aren't supposed to be on par with Warriors. Warriors are the bare-bones tank. Paladins should be as tough as a Warrior after their buffs and stuff, not as is.
The tank job is two parts, sure, but Warriors should do both parts better than a Paladin.
A Warrior should do more damage than a Paladin, a Warrior should have more HP than a Paladin, a Warrior should take hits better than a Paladin.
The trade off? The Paladin can buff the whole party with auras, seals and blessings. The Paladin can heal. The Paladin can instantly save members. The Paladin (at least, a well-played one) is unbeatable in PvP.
Wait what? No.
A Paladin should have to use everything to buff themselves, and thier backups in order to just be on par with a Warrior? (Which also coincidently makes it harder for them to do thier tradeoff roles you poited out later)
A Warrior should be able to be as defensive as a Paladin AND do more damage than than anything else in the game aside from a Rogue?
Your trade off is flawed as that makes them a gimped Priest and a gimped Warrior who does a little of both, and basically makes them a Druid in a jack of all trades sort of way, only worse cause by comparison thier heals aren't as good, they have less usfule additions, and only serve as minimal support aside from being able to say one party member from certain death every so often. They would serve no real purpose that a Druid couldn't do better, they fill no role, they have no defining purpose, and you are left with a Warrior that's an unstoppable fighting machine, so again you go from "OMG Paladins are overpowered, nerf nerf nef!" to "OMG Warriors are unstoppable, nerf nerf nerf!"
And a Paladin, even a well played one, is NOT unbeatable in PvP, it just takes at least two lesser classes to take one down, or a good Shaman or Hunter.
Warriors are damage tanks, they can dish out the damange and tank conciderably well. They can negate most casters in seconds, as well as hunters, Rogues, and sometimes Shamans. (Which could be beefed up in the damage department a bit, but not much.}
Paladins are defensive tanks, they tank concinderably well and take a whiel to wear down, while dishing out decent, but not comparable damage. Can be negated by a good Hunter, or a couple rogues, and has a really hard time with Shamans. The only class that can stand up to a Warrior, and survive, with any concistancy. (Which could stand to lose the ability to use both thier self protections and others protection on themselves.)
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Faelynn LeAndris had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
A Warrior should be able to be as defensive as a Paladin AND do more damage than than anything else in the game aside from a Rogue?
Yes, they should actually (though, they shouldn't outdamage mages). Warriors have little in ways of utility other than battle shout. Paladins have heals, group buffs, rez, etc. Rogues have stealth, poisons, crowd control, etc.
Warriors concentrate on two things; taking damage and doing damage. Warriors should have the highest pure melee damage in the game. Rogues should outdamage them, but only by using finishing moves and poisons. Warriors should outdamage rogues with just pure attacks though. Warriors should also have the highest AC in the game. Paladins bring a number of other things to the group that warriors don't. As such, warriors should be better base tanks.
You have to look at the classes as a whole. If paladins and rogues didn't have other abilities, paladins should be better tanks and rogues should be better pure damage dealers. The other two classes have utility spells/abilities that warriors don't and thus can bring things to the group that warriors can't.
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Talonus had this to say about (_|_):
Yes, they should actually (though, they shouldn't outdamage mages). Warriors have little in ways of utility other than battle shout. Paladins have heals, group buffs, rez, etc. Rogues have stealth, poisons, crowd control, etc.Warriors concentrate on two things; taking damage and doing damage. Warriors should have the highest pure melee damage in the game. Rogues should outdamage them, but only by using finishing moves and poisons. Warriors should outdamage rogues with just pure attacks though. Warriors should also have the highest AC in the game. Paladins bring a number of other things to the group that warriors don't. As such, warriors should be better base tanks.
You have to look at the classes as a whole. If paladins and rogues didn't have other abilities, paladins should be better tanks and rogues should be better pure damage dealers. The other two classes have utility spells/abilities that warriors don't and thus can bring things to the group that warriors can't.
Warriors should not be anywhere near Rogue damage, rogues have about a fifth of a warrior's AC, and a medicore mez and snare don't make up for that.
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Mod had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Warriors should not be anywhere near Rogue damage, rogues have about a fifth of a warrior's AC, and a medicore mez and snare don't make up for that.
I meant in pure swing for swing damage with a 2H axe warrior vs a sword/dagger (nobody uses dagger/dagger) rogue. No rage used as a warrior, no energy used as a rogue. Using combos and finishing moves a rogue should definitely outdamage the warrior, but the warrior should do more in pure melee.
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Talonus obviously shouldn't have said:
I meant in pure swing for swing damage with a 2H axe warrior vs a sword/dagger (nobody uses dagger/dagger) rogue. No rage used as a warrior, no energy used as a rogue. Using combos and finishing moves a rogue should definitely outdamage the warrior, but the warrior should do more in pure melee.
Why? It's only total damage that counts in the end and warriors (dual welding or 2h) already outdamage a dagger mainhand rogue swing for swing due to daggers genrally having a worse pure dps output than swords or maces. Damage should be relevant to the warrior class mostly as a means to taunt, their class role is reducing damage dealt by mobs through migitation and as a secondary ability to distinguish them from the other tank classes (druds, paladins) dealing some damage. Rogues have dealing damage as their primary ability and can badly replicate some mage abilities as a secondary (mez, snare, spell counters).
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Mod wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Why? It's only total damage that counts in the end and warriors (dual welding or 2h) already outdamage a dagger mainhand rogue swing for swing due to daggers genrally having a worse pure dps output than swords or maces. Damage should be relevant to the warrior class mostly as a means to taunt, their class role is reducing damage dealt by mobs through migitation and as a secondary ability to distinguish them from the other tank classes (druds, paladins) dealing some damage. Rogues have dealing damage as their primary ability and can badly replicate some mage abilities as a secondary (mez, snare, spell counters).
Warriors need to deal damage in order to gain rage for their abilities. Rogues get 20 energy every 2 seconds. Base damage should be higher for them, as they rely on that base damage in order to use their abilities. Being the class that's the most reliant on base melee damage, they should have the highest base melee damage.
As far as class abilities, I do agree that rogues should outdamage warriors overall. That's why I'm only saying that warriors should have a higher base damage. In other words, if a rogue and a warrior of equal level/gear were to hit the attack button and do nothing, the warrior should outdmage the rogue. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.
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Talonus had this to say about Knight Rider:
Yes, they should actually (though, they shouldn't outdamage mages). Warriors have little in ways of utility other than battle shout. Paladins have heals, group buffs, rez, etc. Rogues have stealth, poisons, crowd control, etc.Warriors concentrate on two things; taking damage and doing damage. Warriors should have the highest pure melee damage in the game. Rogues should outdamage them, but only by using finishing moves and poisons. Warriors should outdamage rogues with just pure attacks though. Warriors should also have the highest AC in the game. Paladins bring a number of other things to the group that warriors don't. As such, warriors should be better base tanks.
You have to look at the classes as a whole. If paladins and rogues didn't have other abilities, paladins should be better tanks and rogues should be better pure damage dealers. The other two classes have utility spells/abilities that warriors don't and thus can bring things to the group that warriors can't.
Warriors can stun and cripple better than anything else in the game, hell a Warriors abilities alone keep my Hunter from being able to use a good deal of my arsenal because they are more powerful. Hamestring, etc. Not to mention Execute while not really a untility, is just flat out nasty, I mean a chance to pretty much kill instantly any player in the game who has been decently damaged (left with 20% health) which isn't hard for a Warrior to take anything down to that point, EXCEPT a Paladin and possibly another Warrior.
Now you put in the Paladin's other abilities, which as I said, if you take away thier tanking ability to less than a Warriors, where the damage is ALREADY less than a warriors, they become crappy Priests, and crappy Warriors, and a Druid would be better and more effective, leaving the Paladin with nothing.
Warriors have utilities and pure damage abilities that Rogues and Paladins dont which make them monster damage machines, and far far far better tanks than Rogue. Hell even my Hunter can wear chain eventually, a Rogue can't a roague is paste unless they get the fall on you or double up, they can't even COMPARE to a Warrior one on one, which is what you are comparing them too. It takes a couple rogues to take a warrior just like it does a Paladin, and unlike a Paladin, there isnt much of ANYTHING a Hunter or any Caster (Of ANY type) can do against them, MAYBE a Shaman, but I dunno there.
And in your responce to Mod, in that Warriors should have better base damage than a Rogue if they both just hit attack and did nothing, guess what? They do. 
Try it sometime. If neither class does ANYTHING but hit the attack button, guess what, a Warrior Out damages EVERYTHING in the game, not just rogues. The ONLY counter balance is that a Rogue is more likely to crit more often depending on thier equipment setup for High AGI gear. Which, co-incidently, if a Warrior goes for high AGI gear even THAT is a moot point, and they STILL have the HPs and AC to far far far outlast the Rogue. And gaining Rage with a Warrior is far easier that waiting out Combo Points and such for a Rogue, in case you hadn't noticed. They can use thier abilities far more often, at a cheaper cost, and more effectively than a Rogue can.
First on the Warrior (And no, I know the EC Warriors HAVE to be smarter than this guy) I'm raiding Splinter Tree... By myself, just me, cause Im bored, and I like PvP when it's not cheap. (Abusing someones stupididty they way I did this guy, isnt cheap, it just wasnt very fun for very long, heh). So anyway, there I am, all by my lonesome, taking on the HOrde outpost, and along comes this level 41 Warrior, my Hunter is 33 right... Now, I tames Gamoo-Rah a while back (Big freaking ass Turtle pet who is the tank from hell) and here comes this Warrior, and now I'm standing right there, killing all his NPCs. He ignores me and starts taking on my Turtle, WHILE IM RIGHT THERE, notably, the turtle is hard to Hurt, but not insanely so, and easy enough for a Warrior of course, if they aren't stupid... So, he attacks my pet, and I stop fighting NPCs to watch, cause he wont even come near me, and he is taking out my turtle quite efectively, but I figure hey, he is a moron, and my pet is actually hurting him a bit with Bite and all that, so I stop what I'm doing and start using Mend pet...
I never layed a hand on the Warrior, every, not even a single sting, I just let my pet tank him, and used NOTHING but mend pet, he fought FOREVER trying to kill my pet while I mended, the WHOLE fight went that way... My turtle tanked the Warrior to death with me keeping it alive.
You'd THINK that would be the end of the story, but noooooooooooo... He came back for his body, and I had killed a few more PCs and he starts trying to kill my pet AGAIN not even touching me. This time of course I said fuck it, and I fought along side my pet to kill him. This happend again after he came back for his body the second time. The last time he came back he just grabbed his body and ran.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Faelynn LeAndris said:
snip
The reason warriors need to have better AC and damage than a paladin is because we have nothing we can do other than try to stay close and hope we kill them before they kill us. If a paladin is fighting a losing battle, he can heal, invul, stun, etc. All I can do as a warrior is fight till I die. If I hamstring and try to run, I will die (As has been proven on many occasions). If a paladin gets permarooted by a druid there are a ton of things he can do (escape spell, heal himself to outlast the druid's mana, stun to try to interrupt the druid's roots). As a warrior, I can sit with my thumb in my ass and watch my health go down.
Warriors are a one trick pony. Keep us out of range and you will win every time because we can't do anything about it.
Also, I never hit listed damage when I have SoC on, its usually around minimum listed for my actual maximum.
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We were all impressed when Faelynn LeAndris wrote:
One on One a Paladin will trump a Warrior, but two Warriors that play smart can tear down a Paladin. Two Rogues can destroy them completely, and 1 to 2 Hunters can take em down pretty easily if done right. 3 or more people in a varied and smart group, can take out a Paladin without so much as a bruise if they do it right.
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Faelynn LeAndris:
Two Hunters can drain a Paladin completely in 8 seconds, even if they dispell it the hunters can instantly recast it.To Rogues can simply take turns stunning eviserating backstabing and various other things. It's nuts. Seen it happen.
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Faelynn LeAndris:
It does NOT take significantly more to beat a Paladin, which is exactly what you keep ignoring, in fact it is quit simple to do if you are smart enough, as I said, alone a Hunter can do it, a pair of Rogues can do it, simple and very strategic. If it takes significantly more of anything to beat them it is brain power, and thinking ahead.
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Faelynn LeAndris (emphasis mine):
And a Paladin, even a well played one, is NOT unbeatable in PvP, it just takes at least two lesser classes to take one down, or a good Shaman or Hunter.
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Faelynn LeAndris:
Warriors are damage tanks, they can dish out the damange and tank conciderably well. They can negate most casters in seconds, as well as hunters, Rogues, and sometimes Shamans. (Which could be beefed up in the damage department a bit, but not much.}Paladins are defensive tanks, they tank concinderably well and take a whiel to wear down, while dishing out decent, but not comparable damage. Can be negated by a good Hunter, or a couple rogues, and has a really hard time with Shamans.
I didn't really think paladins were overpowered before. Thanks for proving me wrong.
Once those are gone paladins are just bad warriors.
Why doesnt anyone get that? The paladin might be able to kill the first guy in a group PvP encounter, unless someone heals him, then he dies to the rest o the people kicking his ass.
Edit: though, to play devils advocate to faes argument, 2 on 1 in anything isnt very fair, and it good against any class.
Also, magic damage fucks a paladin up, only one invuln applies to magic, the other one only does physical damage. Elvish Crack Piper fucked around with this message on 12-25-2004 at 03:18 PM.
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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about Pirotess:
Paladins only strength in PvP is the two immunity spells.Once those are gone paladins are just bad warriors.
Why doesnt anyone get that? The paladin might be able to kill the first guy in a group PvP encounter, unless someone heals him, then he dies to the rest o the people kicking his ass.
Edit: though, to play devils advocate to faes argument, 2 on 1 in anything isnt very fair, and it good against any class.
Also, magic damage fucks a paladin up, only one invuln applies to magic, the other one only does physical damage.
Please tell me then how I JUST FOUGHT two level 30 pallies.. stacking the DoTs on (Before you get all high and mighty, it's a PvE server. They chose to be flagged. I gank when I can) and one immunity COMPLETELY FUCKING REMOVED ALL MAGICAL EFFECTS?
Stop spewing bullshit "o lol one immune is like not magic!!!11" when it still took me a good two minutes to kill both of them. I'm FOURTY. FUCKING. FIVE.
To be clear: I'm fine with the immunity to magic. Whatever. What I have a problem with is the REMOVAL of ALL magical effects, the INABILITY to dispel it either via felhunter munching it, or whatever, and the FURTHER immunity to any other spells.. like roots.. dots.. etc.
Oh wow. My curse of agony stuck. SO AWESOME when it's about 2% of my damage. Delphi Aegis fucked around with this message on 12-25-2004 at 05:20 PM.
Its always been this way.
Thats fine.
Once per scenario that can remove your DOT's if they have that immunity up.
Honestly, your the best class at killing paladins, dot us then fear followed by a couple of those shadowbolts.
We die, fast.
You sure they didnt have shadow resist aura up? That might lower your DPS. Killing 2 healing classes with DOT's is going to be hard anyway.
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So quoth Elvish Crack Piper:
Divine Protection/Shield removes your DOTs.Its always been this way.
Thats fine.
Once per scenario that can remove your DOT's if they have that immunity up.
Honestly, your the best class at killing paladins, dot us then fear followed by a couple of those shadowbolts.
We die, fast.
You sure they didnt have shadow resist aura up? That might lower your DPS. Killing 2 healing classes with DOT's is going to be hard anyway.
The problem comes when a pally can waltz into a group of horde, being attacked the whole time, hit something, realize they are FUCKING STUPID, shove up an immunity and run out without a scratch at all.
6-12 seconds later he gets to be your bitch.
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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Cast fear. Follow Him. Whatever.6-12 seconds later he gets to be your bitch.
I did. It STILL took 2 minutes to kill him.
The level 27 guy died almost right off (I got an immolate off on the bastard) but the other dude had THREE health bars. One original, one from the magic immune healing, then the third from LoH. That's not even fucking RIGHT.
Yes its right. The point of the paladin is survivability.
Lay on Hands gimps the paladin that uses it, once LoH is used, its either run away or the mob better be at 20% health. Mana potions help here too.
Why didnt you fear kite him.
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Elvish Crack Piper wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Funny how in PvP settings in a 1v1 setting it takes 3 health bars of a paladin to get through one caster class.Yes its right. The point of the paladin is survivability.
Lay on Hands gimps the paladin that uses it, once LoH is used, its either run away or the mob better be at 20% health. Mana potions help here too.
Why didnt you fear kite him.
Because I was FOURTY. FIVE. fighting a level 30? Maybe, just perhaps, it was supposed to be utterly trivial for me to beat the crap out of them?
On top of that, howl lasted longer then fear. Hi nerf, nice to meetcha.
So, you could, maybem kill one of them with just your dots.
IF they didnt heal.
Or use a potion.
Or whatever.
Warlocks DOT'ness lets them survive, as a paladin is want to do, huge damage still needs time to proc when its Dot.
A DoT that goes 500 health a tick would destroy me. Even if I wiped it once.
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Hey Lashanna, I betcha still living in your parent's cellar, downloadin' pictures of Sarah Michelle Gellar, and posting 'Me too!' like some brain-dead AOLer; I should do the world a favor and cap you like old yellah:
I have like, 1300 Health at 33.A DoT that goes 500 health a tick would destroy me. Even if I wiped it once.
Corruption (With shadow mastery) is 560 some over 27 seconds, agony is 525 over 30 (Incrementally building in damage). Immolate's a 150some DD followed by 54/3sec for 15 sec.
Drain life is 49/sec channeled for five seconds. (With imp drain life and shadow mastery.. need an upgrade soon, omg).
It still shouldn't have taken me two full minutes to kill someone fifteen levels below me, especially when he had more HP then mobs two levels ABOVE me.
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Faelynn LeAndris painfully thought these words up:
Warriors can stun and cripple better than anything else in the game, hell a Warriors abilities alone keep my Hunter from being able to use a good deal of my arsenal because they are more powerful. Hamestring, etc. Not to mention Execute while not really a untility, is just flat out nasty, I mean a chance to pretty much kill instantly any player in the game who has been decently damaged (left with 20% health) which isn't hard for a Warrior to take anything down to that point, EXCEPT a Paladin and possibly another Warrior.
Execute hurts like hell, but warriors are going to be using abilities which take up the rage needed to make Execute really sting. If they stun better than anything else in the game, please, PLEASE, tell me what ability that warrior is using. Besides, only in one on one duels will 20% health mean anything. In normal PvP, if you have only 20% health yet, you're pretty much dead. As for crippling abilities, such as? Demoralizing Shout is sweet, but Hamstring is near pointless unless you are trying to stop runners, and Thunderclap is really only useful for groups of mobs.
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Now you put in the Paladin's other abilities, which as I said, if you take away thier tanking ability to less than a Warriors, where the damage is ALREADY less than a warriors, they become crappy Priests, and crappy Warriors, and a Druid would be better and more effective, leaving the Paladin with nothing.
Warriors aren't damage gods. While Paladins may not be masters of damage, they can still dish quite a bit out. With 2-handers, Paladins have Seal of Crusader to pump up DPS by a huge amount. (As I said before, having your delay changed from 3.00 to 2.20 is a huge improvement when using a 2-hander.) With 1-handers, you have Seal of Command (chance to proc holy damage that is equal to your weapons damage, comboed with Judgement of the Crusader, this can really hurt). Then you also have various seals that can restore health and mana to the paladin on melee attacks.
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Warriors have utilities and pure damage abilities that Rogues and Paladins dont which make them monster damage machines, and far far far better tanks than Rogue. Hell even my Hunter can wear chain eventually, a Rogue can't a roague is paste unless they get the fall on you or double up, they can't even COMPARE to a Warrior one on one, which is what you are comparing them too. It takes a couple rogues to take a warrior just like it does a Paladin, and unlike a Paladin, there isnt much of ANYTHING a Hunter or any Caster (Of ANY type) can do against them, MAYBE a Shaman, but I dunno there.
...
In my opinion, your view is being skewed from playing a hunter. It is a warrior's job to own your hunter ass, however, against most other classes, warriors have to play very well. My shaman and my bro's warrior are pretty close to equal though I do win most of the time. He has been owned by smart mages and owned by paladins. Rogues are deadly for him to fight UNLESS he uses Retaliation which is on a 30 minute timer.
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And in your responce to Mod, in that Warriors should have better base damage than a Rogue if they both just hit attack and did nothing, guess what? They do.Try it sometime. If neither class does ANYTHING but hit the attack button, guess what, a Warrior Out damages EVERYTHING in the game, not just rogues. The ONLY counter balance is that a Rogue is more likely to crit more often depending on thier equipment setup for High AGI gear. Which, co-incidently, if a Warrior goes for high AGI gear even THAT is a moot point, and they STILL have the HPs and AC to far far far outlast the Rogue. And gaining Rage with a Warrior is far easier that waiting out Combo Points and such for a Rogue, in case you hadn't noticed.
20 energy for a rogue comes back DAMN fast. Thats how rogues do damage. Rage on the other hand, requires you to hit the thing you are fighting, and take hits. While warriors CAN dish out lots of special attacks, none of them are anything to make a big deal about. As for warriors doing more melee damage than any other class in the game, I would say thats because of thier high natural strength, and if a rogue went full strength gear, I bet they could get close to a warrior's normal damage. Willias fucked around with this message on 12-25-2004 at 09:35 PM.
Yes these are with 5 combo dots at level 60, without whatever talents beef them up.
Not to mention the considerable number of talents that are instant hits for damage and add a combo point. Gouge is especially beefy. 5.5 second disorient + combo point. Thats 60 energy back. 3.5 seconds later you can do it again.
Rogues should fuck a warrior up in so many ways. Even if warriors somehow outdamage a rogue, the warrior wont be fighting half the time.
Retaliation should be an auto win against a rogue who doesnt immediatly back off, do the "disorientate for X seconds move" and then bandage himself. Especially if the warrior is doing a 2 hander 3+ speed against a rogues duel 1.8 speed weapons.
Youwsa.
I dont know if I could recognize what was happening fast enough to stop myself if I was playing a rogue.
A rogue in full str/agi gear is a very scary thing. Get 2 of those, 2 fire mages, and a priest, and watch the bodies fly (apart)
quote:This has so many ignorant and wrong statements in it.
Warriors have utilities and pure damage abilities that Rogues and Paladins dont which make them monster damage machines, and far far far better tanks than Rogue. Hell even my Hunter can wear chain eventually, a Rogue can't a roague is paste unless they get the fall on you or double up, they can't even COMPARE to a Warrior one on one, which is what you are comparing them too. It takes a couple rogues to take a warrior just like it does a Paladin, and unlike a Paladin, there isnt much of ANYTHING a Hunter or any Caster (Of ANY type) can do against them, MAYBE a Shaman, but I dunno there.
just fyi
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How.... Blackened.... uughhhhhh:
This has so many ignorant and wrong statements in it.just fyi
How dare you say such a thing.
Rogues kill me pretty fast in duels.
Wonder how fast a warrior dies.
