Are you sure its all bind on pickup? I could have sword my gnome net asked if I wanted to bind it.
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This insanity brought to you by Mr. Parcelan:
Yeah, that's another point. If Paladins are left as they are and Warriors as they are, there'll be no PvP.You won't even need anything else. You can just have a bunch of Paladins working the whole field.
Paladins... I take back some of the things I said during the big "Paladin vs Horde" thread, that was supposed to be about the latest patch.
Apparently, not many people realize that one of the two invulnerabilities that Paladins have doesn't protect them from magic. Me and Zaggon (my younger bro) fought a level 32 pally, and needless to say, it was nice watching him squirm after he put up Blessing of Protection.
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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about Punky Brewster:
Your flagged by the quest completion most likely.Are you sure its all bind on pickup? I could have sword my gnome net asked if I wanted to bind it.
Could've sworn they were all bind on pickup. Some are, some aren't I guess. You could try finding a goblin engineer and see what he can make.
Going to back up in the post a bit for a Horde vs Alliance comparison I found. I thought it was quite informative. I'll just quote it for ease;
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The starter areas (up to level 20-22) are relatively balanced on both sides, I don't think anyone would argue that. A player can get to level 20 quite easily in "home" territory, and his/her first level 20+ instances will get him/her to level 25 quite easily. However serious imbalance kicks in directly after this point.Definitions fyi: "presence" of a faction I am determining by the existance of a town with a flight point or mass transit drop off.
There are a grand total of 7 contested zones for players to quest in from level 20-30 in this game.
Ashenvale
Stonetalon
Thousand Needles
Wetlands
Hillsbrad
Redridge
DuskwoodAmount that have no Alliance presence: 0
Amount that have no Horde presence: 3With the natural progression of horde to the Barrens and Silverpine, depending on race, there are three "naturally" adjacent contested zones for players starting in these areas to progress to after they've finished their home area quests and start to begin leveling from 20-30. Hillsbrad, Ashenvale, and Stonetalon would be the obvious three. There are two "natural" progression zones past these that players would migrate to based on their geographical position relative to the 20-30 contested zones on each continent, the western continent zone being Desolace, the eastern continent zone being Stranglethorn. Desolace and Stranglethorn directly border both starter areas and level 20-30 contested areas, and have quests that are attainable in the high 20s to low 30s.
Ashenvale
For the Horde, there are 24 quests in Ashenvale, with an average maximum return of 1870 exp per quest.
For the Alliance, there are 48 quests in Ashenvale, with an average maximum return of 1618 exp per quest. Three quests were removed from the average since thottbot had no exp data on those quests.
There are nine quests in Ashenvale that give alliance "useful items" (defined as weapon or armor pieces that are useful for the level of the questee), there are three quests for the Horde in Ashenvale that give "useful items" for Horde players.
Fully double the number of quests and three times the number of item rewards for alliance than horde in this zone, for only a 200 exp per quest average difference (in other words 2 mob kills, virtually none).
Stonetalon
For the Horde, there are 32 quests in Stonetalon, for an average maximum exp return of 1569 per quest.
For Alliance, there are 22 quests in Stonetalon, for an average maximum exp return of 1499 per quest.
There are four item reward quests for the alliance in this zone, compared to nine for the horde.
Thousand Needles
This zone has quests that range up to level 50 which is beyond the scope of this post, so I cut off the "level" of the quest in question at 35, eliminating higher level quests that go from Thousand Needles into bordering areas.
For the Horde, there are 35 total quests, with an average maximum exp return of 2059 each. Two quests have no exp reward listed on thottbot and were removed from the calculation of the averge.
For the Alliance, there are 19 total quests, with an average maximum exp return of 2127 each. one quest has no exp reward listed on thottbot and was removed from the calculation of the average.
As for equipment returns there are 3 alliance quests with equipment returns in this zone up to level 35, there are 6 horde quests with equipment returns in this zone up to level 35. One horde quest that only rewards an armor kit was excluded from this calculation.
Hillsbrad
Again, this zone also has quests that proceed up to and perhaps past level 40 that send you to surrounding zones, so the quest level for calculation purposes has been cut off at 35.
For the horde, there are 38 quests with an average maximum return of 2168 exp per quest. Thottbot has no data on exp for 3 quests so those were removed from calculation of the average.
For the alliance, there are 20 quests with an average maximum return of 1986 exp per quest. One listed an error and only a potion as a return for 600 exp on thottbot, so I suspect that's garbage data and excluded it from the calculation of the average.
There are 4 quests out of those 20 with an equipment return for the alliance, again with the ones for potions/food/water/etc excluded.
As for equipment returns for the horde there are 7, one being excluded because its only rewards are potions, not wearable equipment.
Redridge
Obviously the horde has no town and no travel points here, so their numbers are a big fat zero.
As for alliance, there are a whopping 50 quests in this zone for an average maximum return of 1180 exp per quest. There are also 10 equipment rewards.
Double the quests for half the exp per quest of any other contested zone, this is basically a "free" level 20-30 zone for the alliance, the horde has no alternative.
Duskwood
Again no horde town and no horde travel points so the horde numbers are another big ole zero.
For the alliance, there are again some big numbers. A grand total of 78 quests for an average maximum exp return of 1294 each. Again there were 3 with either bugged data or no exp reward listed so they were excluded from the calculation of the average.
There are 10 equipment rewards for the alliance in this zone, with the horde of course having another zero.
Doing the math this is roughly equivalent to 1.5 (almost 2) Stonetalons or Ashenvales that are free to the alliance, with no horde alternative.
Wetlands
And for the third zone for the cup...err alliance, there are no horde travel points in this zone so the horde get another zero. Thanks for playing.
As for the alliance, there are 57 quests in this zone for an average maximum exp per quest of 1596. Again with no horde equivalent and a slightly higher exp return per quest than the other 20-30 zones when the number of quests is conisdered, this is basically a free 1.5 to 2 zone's worth of quests for the alliance, for which there is no horde alternative.
Stranglethorn and Desolace
Well if the alliance have such an enormous advantage in leveling from 20-30 there must be a horde advantage in Desolace versus Stranglethorn for the next level of quests from 30-40 right? Hahahaha, anyone who's played to that level in beta knows how laughable that statement is.
Raw numbers:
26 alliance Desolace quests for average max exp of 2413 per.
29 horde Desolace quests for an average max exp of 2240 per.
Roughly equivalent between the two for equipment rewards.
Stranglethorn of course is the proverbial motherlode of questing areas (being on the alliance side, of course), with a whopping 105 quests for the alliance, and 109 for the horde. The average exp per quest is almost exactly the same between the two zones, it's just that the cup...err, alliance side has about 4x as many of them as the horde equivalent zone.
And how about that zeppelin dropoff to Menethil Harbor? Oh wait, that doesn't exist, one of the horde races got made "neutral" and the alliance given a direct boat route into horde low level areas, the horde weren't so lucky in that respect.
So there you go, the alliance have roughly 4-5 zones (175ish x 1000-2000 exp per) MORE quests than the horde in safe, defined by no enemy travel point, areas.
And if that's not enough the quest area that virtually everyone must use between levels 30 to 35 is on their side and more accessible to their lower level areas too
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Willias had this to say about Punky Brewster:Apparently, not many people realize that one of the two invulnerabilities that Paladins have doesn't protect them from magic. Me and Zaggon (my younger bro) fought a level 32 pally, and needless to say, it was nice watching him squirm after he put up Blessing of Protection.
I spent an entire thread telling you that, and you said it wasn't true, even said you had CONFIRMED it yourself, and that nothing I said made sense when I was explaining the weaknesses of a Paladin. 
Sooo... Toldya so.
The whole reason I PLAYED all the different classes was to find ways to counter them. The only way to be good at countering something and getting a real feel for it, is to play it and figure it out.
Paladin's are NOT unstoppable, Paladins are not godlike, Paladins don't do awesome damage, they have staying power and thats IT. The ONLY reason a Paladin will EVER beat a Warrior is purely because they can outlast them, and thats it. A Warrior far overshadows a Paladin in usefullness, unless all you WANT is a heavy duty tank. But if you really want something ACCOMPLISHED instead of just wearing something down by outlasting it, you take a Warrior.
Paladins are still tremendously imbalanced and overpowered.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Maradon! was all like:
Paladins have far more staying power than warriors have damage, though. Warriors have a bigger staying power handicap than the Paladins damage output handicap.Paladins are still tremendously imbalanced and overpowered.
No they aren't, at BEST they have a power advatage because of staying MOSTLY because of two invulnerabilities, one of which they shouldn't be able to use, and because of Lay Hands, but they also have a LOT of weaknesses if you know how to get around them. Like I said, go play one, you will find there ARE easy counters, and some classes specifically such as Hunters and Rogues can make a Paladin's life pure hell.
All you have to do is learn the ins and outs and a Paladin is pie. And trying to bring up a One on One Dual or Encounter is entirely pointless because it doesn't make sense in the first place, although a single Hunter can take down a Paladin with little risk, albeit with a lot of effort and time, but little risk if you really want to go that route.
One on One a Paladin will trump a Warrior, but two Warriors that play smart can tear down a Paladin. Two Rogues can destroy them completely, and 1 to 2 Hunters can take em down pretty easily if done right. 3 or more people in a varied and smart group, can take out a Paladin without so much as a bruise if they do it right.
Most people's experience and whining comes from facing a Paladin without really knowing anything ABOUT one cept they got smashed and it was a Paladin that did it. There ARE weaknesses, there ARE strategies to use, you CAN overcome them easily enough if you are smart.
All you need is one or two classes that mana burn, and what you've got left is the most worthless excuse for a melee there is.
p.s. WHICH YOU WILL
hunters, priests and warlocks can all drain mana Blackened fucked around with this message on 12-22-2004 at 02:34 PM.
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Talonus was naked while typing this:
SNIP
That analysis also fails to mention that The Horde prodominantly controls Kalimdor completely, and ONLY lists the contested zones, negating all the home zones in which the HOrde controls on that continent... And unless I'm mistaken, out of all of those areas Horde has most quests than Alliance overall by comparison, even Strangelthorn where he made it sound like Alliance had this hellacious advantage in quests and the HORDE still had 4 more quests there.
You will also find very few of those areas that are frequented NEARLY as often by Alliance members as they are by Horde. You also have to concider most of that doesn't mean jack SHIT on a PvE server, which are the dominant server count last I checked. Also, keep in mind, that a LOT of the 20-30 quests that we DO get in those areas are freakin suicide if you even TRY to attempt them at the level you are supposed to.
If you want to be fair, point out how many zones total, overall, that the Horde dominate, and the fact that the zones they listed WITHOUT a Horde pressence aren't even the best areas to level in between 20-30. They are just more zones. And whatabout when the tide switches at higher levels and the Horde has more influence, and at lower levels where the Horde has better travel and choices, AND the fact that some Horde zones accomidate a much larger level spread.
No, Horde and Alliance seem about equal in my opinion... And the whole Horde > Alliance or vice versa is actually kinda annoying in general. As well as the blanket statements that Alliance are ignorant, unskilled, and cheap players. Cause as a FACT on Alleria the Horde you will catch pulling lame as traps all the time just to gank REALLY low players. Such as a Level 42 Horde who stays stealthed behind a level 19, while the level 19 goes and attacks an Alliance NPC to flag himself and they both wait around for someone to come take on the 19 while the stealthed 42 does NOTHING until the unsuspecting level 19-20 Alliance person takes on the flagged 19 horde, where as then the 42 comes out of stealth and IMMEDIATELY ganks the lowbie level 19, because he was protected by the PvP system and abused being non-flagged, which is EXACTLY the kind of abuse I was afraid off on a PvE server. Happens ALL the time. Or like a group of level 60's that came and attacked AStrannar in Ashenvale, 7 or so of them, where the HIGHEST spawning mob there is level 15 except the guards, and there is NO alliance player there who can stand up to a level 60 let ALONE several of them, so they camp Astrannar. And no one else can do anything about it unless our side can gather up a substantial force of level 60s on our own. Which brings up another point, you will see more level 60 Horde on Alleria than you will see level 60 Alliance, a LOT more. Oh and as a last thing, you will see far far far more Rogues, Hunters, and Warlocks on Alleria than you will EVER see Paladins. Not that there aren't a lot, but they are far far far outnumbered by everything else.
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Blackened stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
Paladins in group PvP will be easy:All you need is one or two classes that mana burn, and what you've got left is the most worthless excuse for a melee there is.
p.s. WHICH YOU WILL
hunters, priests and warlocks can all drain mana
The very first rank of Viper Sting alone drains almost 700 mana over 8 seconds, has almost NO cooldown so can be spam cast, and it is an instantcast attack in the first place. Two Hunters can drain a Paladin completely in 8 seconds, even if they dispell it the hunters can instantly recast it.
To Rogues can simply take turns stunning eviserating backstabing and various other things. It's nuts. Seen it happen.
Paladins have pretty big weaknesses if people will bother trying to figure them out rather than complain and moan because they got stomped by one and immediately scream, "OVERPOWERED!"
As far as quests in those areas go, look at the numbers. The Horde has more quests in the areas, but that's because they have less zones to quest in and less quests overall. Alliance have 175ish more quests and several safe zones to do them in, period. There's plenty of "hard" Horde quests (especially in Hillsbrad with the gankers) that aren't worth doing, just like there's plenty of "hard" Alliance quests. That's a moot point on your part. Less people in those zones? From every census I've seen/taken, Alliance outnumber Horde on a scale ranging from 1.17:1 to 3:1. There's less of a player base for Horde to draw from. Horde can't simply skip over those quests that are "too hard" or there's "nobody to help with", because its pretty easy to run out of quests if you do that. Plain and simple, Alliance have it easier and the numbers show that.
Larger influence later on? How? Both sides start questing in the same areas post 35 and start to use the same neutral NPCs to get quests. It turns from an imbalance to being more equal if anything.
As far as the whole Horde vs Alliance in terms of player skill, that comes down to the server. Alliance has greater numbers, more quests, "prettier" characters, and are (falsely) thought to be the side of good. Many DAoC players look back and see the same similarity of Albion in DAoC to the Alliance in WoW, and the similarities are pretty striking to any longtime DAoC player. They'll also remember how this attracted many shitty players to that side, and in the long run these shitty players would form the Albion zerg on most servers. Obviously, on some servers this will different, but for the most part many expect history to repeat itself.
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Talonus had this to say about Robocop:
Fae, he pointed out all the zones for 20-35. In that case, the list is right, and Kalomdor is not a Horde controlled continent. Despite being on a PvP server, I've seen plenty of Alliance in Stonetalon, Thousand Needles, and Ashenvale. When he was talking about Stranglethorn, he referred to it being as a big bonus for Alliance because he plays on a PvP server. On pretty much every server, Alliance owns Stranglethorn and its very hard to quest there without someone watching over your back So yes, it is a huge advantage for Alliance in that case.
We went over this before in a other thread about how the NE's are completely cut off from the rest of the Alliance for being on Kalimdor because it is prodominantly Horde territory. I have YET to go to Stonetalon Mountains and see more Alliance than Horde, ever... In fact you will find Horde people hanging around specifically to harrass you such as when you have to do the Venomsac quests, a Horde Shaman just sat there following me around, staying blue to me like a pansy, so I couldn't attack him, and waited for me to put Hunters Mark on something and then he'd run off and go kill it, or he would just guess at what I was going to attack and then go attack it when I quit using Hunters mark, was annoying as hell, and he was deliberately being an ass while hiding behind his blue tag. If anything the numbers fall into Alliance favor due to the fact that NEs seem to be the most popular race.
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As far as quests in those areas go, look at the numbers. The Horde has more quests in the areas, but that's because they have less zones to quest in and less quests overall. Alliance have 175ish more quests and several safe zones to do them in, period. There's plenty of "hard" Horde quests (especially in Hillsbrad with the gankers) that aren't worth doing, just like there's plenty of "hard" Alliance quests. That's a moot point on your part. Less people in those zones? From every census I've seen/taken, Alliance outnumber Horde on a scale ranging from 1.17:1 to 3:1. There's less of a player base for Horde to draw from. Horde can't simply skip over those quests that are "too hard" or there's "nobody to help with", because its pretty easy to run out of quests if you do that. Plain and simple, Alliance have it easier and the numbers show that.
I DID look at the Numbers and the Horde had more quests in just about every zone, and how do they have less zones to quest in? They don't, they quest in all those zones as well, and USUALLY have more quests in each zone. So that didn't make sense. If by having more quests you are claiming it's "Easier" because there is an Alliance presence, that's not really accurate. And lets not forget other level 20-30 zones where Alliance has little influence at all, and is in dangerous territory such as Silverpine which will take those coming from the Undead lands and Trisfall Glade well into thier upper 20's with ease. We dont even have a GRAVEYARD in that area we can use, we have to come all the way from Southshore. Yet that area isn't mentioned, and its a GREAT place to level, even for Alliance if you are willing to risk it.
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Larger influence later on? How? Both sides start questing in the same areas post 35 and start to use the same neutral NPCs to get quests. It turns from an imbalance to being more equal if anything.
Arathi Highlands are a good example, aside from the Beasts in the area that whole zone is pretty nasty for the Alliance, while for the Horde it is mostly nuetrals and friendlies besides Refuge Point.
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As far as the whole Horde vs Alliance in terms of player skill, that comes down to the server. Alliance has greater numbers, more quests, "prettier" characters, and are (falsely) thought to be the side of good. Many DAoC players look back and see the same similarity of Albion in DAoC to the Alliance in WoW, and the similarities are pretty striking to any longtime DAoC player. They'll also remember how this attracted many shitty players to that side, and in the long run these shitty players would form the Albion zerg on most servers. Obviously, on some servers this will different, but for the most part many expect history to repeat itself.
Not that it is really important, but how is the Alliance thought of good, 'falsely'. From the WC Universe history, NEs at least, are always shown in the light of good versus the others, especially against the trolls who dont have the same excuse of being pulled from thier own plane like the Orcs.
And yeah they are prettier, but it is also a matter of preference, as I myself personally prefer some sort of elvish type, even if it was the evil variety. And I can honestly say, while there are some, I really encounter VERY few idiots and morons on the Alliance side on Alleria, in fact most are very nice, helpful, and friendly... But on the reverse, on my Undead Warlock, I've had to deal with nothing but KSing punk 12 year old assholes, and those immature 12 year olds who think it's cool to be the 'bad guys' as shown by thier actions and some of the things they say. Also you wont find much 'zerging' at ALL on Alleria, in fact most PvP bands are usually pretty small, sometimes as in my case, a single NE Hunter raiding Splinter tree. You also wont see many of them pulling a bunch of lame stunts, such as a group of level 60s camping a HORRIBLY low level area keeping anyone and everyone below thier 20s from doing anything at ALL in the area for several hours, but you will see horde players who think its funny or cool.
And it just gets really annoying when someone starts ragging on you because you are Alliance to show you are somehow stupid, and a shitty player, because of what fictional faction you happen to be a part of in a game. It gets old. Honestly the way it goes around here, Drys shoulda put up a "No Alliance vs Horde Threads" instead of the EQ2 vs WoW one he did.
Everything. Done the level 20 succubus quest from UC, fae? No? You have to run through Arathi.. which isn't so bad until you see the elite level 37 cavalry and 38 valorcall on your road to the wetlands.. flanked on either side by beasts that are 35.
But I like how Fae's jumping up and down about pallies not being overpowered while at the same time saying that if you have two or three people, they're easy to kill.
Sorry, I don't know of any other class that can run into a group of 30 people and walk out alive. Even with your stupid "lol he's not immune to magic!!!" argument.
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Delphi Aegis attempted to be funny by writing:
Aside from the beasts in the area.. everything in Arathi is red named to horde.Everything. Done the level 20 succubus quest from UC, fae? No? You have to run through Arathi.. which isn't so bad until you see the elite level 37 cavalry and 38 valorcall on your road to the wetlands.. flanked on either side by beasts that are 35.
But I like how Fae's jumping up and down about pallies not being overpowered while at the same time saying that if you have two or three people, they're easy to kill.
Sorry, I don't know of any other class that can run into a group of 30 people and walk out alive. Even with your stupid "lol he's not immune to magic!!!" argument.
Uh, hey dumbass, way to overexagerate much. If a Pally faces 30 or so people and doesn't die then THOSE people suck, and umm, unless you are a really shitty player, a Warrior can take on 3 equal level people and survive just as easily as a Paladin against anything BUT a Paladin. They even have an easier time of it than a Paladin against characters liek Rogues, and they almost ENTIRELY negate a Hunter as they are paste for a Warrior, and Mages and such are also toast, a Warlock has a decently high chance with Fear+Dots. Which is the exact same thing I have said the entire time, to say a Warrior can't handle masses of Mobs as well is ignorant because they can, I do it all the time, and 2 or 3 smart people likewise can take down a Paladin, so howbout you come back with something that is actually RELEVANT to anything I have said instead, k? You have no clue what you are talking about, and dont know anything about Paladins besides what you MIGHT have faced, and in fact from most of what you have said to try and counter me, I don't even think you have much experience having FACED a Paladin to begin with, more its you going off what you have heard others say.
And you sit here and tell me why one person that is NOT a Paladin, should be able to take one down concidering what they are. It can be done anyway, so your point is moot, a single character CAN take down a Paladin if done right and of the right class. And as I have in fact stated before, a single Hunter could do it if they felt like wasting the time, since all it would require is time, and they could easily do it. Try harder, k?
And saying my point of the fact the Paladin isnt immune to magic as being a stupid one just points out how retarded your assumptions are...
And uh.. Try running through Arathi as Alliance where every outpost and community along the eastern borders are all Horde friendly commisioned, not to mention the stronghold, and the Wandering "Kick your ass as they watch you cry" Horde NPCs that wander around all over the place, and then everything else that is nuetral to you, such as the Giant and various other NPCs, so sorry, yer wrong there.
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A sleep deprived Delphi Aegis stammered:
Sorry, I don't know of any other class that can run into a group of 30 people and walk out alive. Even with your stupid "lol he's not immune to magic!!!" argument.
I can't walk into 9 orc NPCs and walk out alive. Well, I can walk out alive, but they snare me and beat me down shortly after.
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Faelynn LeAndris's account was hax0red to write:
We went over this before in a other thread about how the NE's are completely cut off from the rest of the Alliance for being on Kalimdor because it is prodominantly Horde territory. I have YET to go to Stonetalon Mountains and see more Alliance than Horde, ever... In fact you will find Horde people hanging around specifically to harrass you such as when you have to do the Venomsac quests, a Horde Shaman just sat there following me around, staying blue to me like a pansy, so I couldn't attack him, and waited for me to put Hunters Mark on something and then he'd run off and go kill it, or he would just guess at what I was going to attack and then go attack it when I quit using Hunters mark, was annoying as hell, and he was deliberately being an ass while hiding behind his blue tag. If anything the numbers fall into Alliance favor due to the fact that NEs seem to be the most popular race.
NE's being cut off is a bad design decision. Most NE's go and join the rest of the Alliance though. As far as Stonetalon specifically, it is more of a Horde area than an Alliance area, hence why there's more Horde quests there. You'll find people near the Alliance town because there's Horde quests that involve you killing stuff right there, as well as there being an instance there. People trying to gank you? Stonetalon is *nothing* compared to Hillsbrad. Nothing.
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I DID look at the Numbers and the Horde had more quests in just about every zone, and how do they have less zones to quest in? They don't, they quest in all those zones as well, and USUALLY have more quests in each zone. So that didn't make sense. If by having more quests you are claiming it's "Easier" because there is an Alliance presence, that's not really accurate. And lets not forget other level 20-30 zones where Alliance has little influence at all, and is in dangerous territory such as Silverpine which will take those coming from the Undead lands and Trisfall Glade well into thier upper 20's with ease. We dont even have a GRAVEYARD in that area we can use, we have to come all the way from Southshore. Yet that area isn't mentioned, and its a GREAT place to level, even for Alliance if you are willing to risk it.
Look again. Horde get three less zones with quests. They have a couple more quests in the zones they have quests in. They have over 150 less quests overall. How do the numbers not support them? Btw, Silverpine is a 10-15 zone. There's not even enough quests to level from 10-20 in that zone alone, so Undead have to go to The Barrens. The only 20+ people in there are heading to SFK or passing through to Hillsbrad.
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Arathi Highlands are a good example, aside from the Beasts in the area that whole zone is pretty nasty for the Alliance, while for the Horde it is mostly nuetrals and friendlies besides Refuge Point.
All red there as a Horde except for the town and that farm. Not sure where you're getting the neutral thing from. All the ogres are red and we have quests to kill them.
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Not that it is really important, but how is the Alliance thought of good, 'falsely'. From the WC Universe history, NEs at least, are always shown in the light of good versus the others, especially against the trolls who dont have the same excuse of being pulled from thier own plane like the Orcs.
NE's kind of fucked over the world with their greed. Hell, if anything their actions are the worst of any race in Warcraft history. The Tauren are the only race who can really be considered good in Warcraft history. What have they done that's been bad?
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And yeah they are prettier, but it is also a matter of preference, as I myself personally prefer some sort of elvish type, even if it was the evil variety. And I can honestly say, while there are some, I really encounter VERY few idiots and morons on the Alliance side on Alleria, in fact most are very nice, helpful, and friendly... But on the reverse, on my Undead Warlock, I've had to deal with nothing but KSing punk 12 year old assholes, and those immature 12 year olds who think it's cool to be the 'bad guys' as shown by thier actions and some of the things they say. Also you wont find much 'zerging' at ALL on Alleria, in fact most PvP bands are usually pretty small, sometimes as in my case, a single NE Hunter raiding Splinter tree. You also wont see many of them pulling a bunch of lame stunts, such as a group of level 60s camping a HORRIBLY low level area keeping anyone and everyone below thier 20s from doing anything at ALL in the area for several hours, but you will see horde players who think its funny or cool.
That's your own limited experiences. I'm sure any Horde player on a PvP server who's visited Hillsbrad can tell you of a ganker there. Hell, today I was using my brother's 60 rogue to clear out a couple 30s, 40s, and even a 60 who were ganking level 20 people. I'm dreading leveling in Stranglethorn, as I'll definitely need to use him as a bot to do anything if the stories of some are correct. I'm not saying that Alliance are full of zergling dumbasses, but those who played DAoC will notice the similarities between Albion and the Alliance.
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And it just gets really annoying when someone starts ragging on you because you are Alliance to show you are somehow stupid, and a shitty player, because of what fictional faction you happen to be a part of in a game. It gets old. Honestly the way it goes around here, Drys shoulda put up a "No Alliance vs Horde Threads" instead of the EQ2 vs WoW one he did.
Just expressing our opinions. You can consider it roleplaying if you want. Talonus fucked around with this message on 12-22-2004 at 05:14 PM.
That some people can still deny that holocaust ever occurred is astounding.
Also to be fair, the Night Elves today are pretty much innocent. Virtually all the night elves that were guilty of that sort of greed are now High Elves or Naga.
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Talonus wrote this stupid crap:
NE's kind of fucked over the world with their greed. Hell, if anything their actions are the worst of any race in Warcraft history. The Tauren are the only race who can really be considered good in Warcraft history. What have they done that's been bad?
Wait what? 
That was a faction of Elves, that were, eventually by the way, cut off and shunned by all other NE's which of course ALSO led to all NE's forbidding the use of Arcane Magic... In fact that fact that broke off and destroyed the world in its greed are still around, and still evil, they are the Naga now.
In fact the NE's have been the ones protecting the Well and tried locking it away to keep the burning legion out and made the whole bargain in order to protect it even further which brought about the Emerald Dream.
The Dwarves never really did anything bad, in fact they kinda just "Woke Up". The Dark Irons are something entirely different and also an offshoot.
Even those elves who wanted to continue practicing the arcane and left thier NE brethren behind never wanted to do anything more than practice thier magics in peace, but the blood thirsty Trolls didn't like that and vied for power, of course getting the beat down due to humans coming to thier aid.
So um... I dont really get where you are coming from.
Only a few could be considered good while the vast majority of NEs had to have a wake-up call when the Highbourne unleashed the unrelenting waves of summoned Burning Legion upon their own lands.
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Faelynn LeAndris obviously shouldn't have said:
Uh, hey dumbass, way to overexagerate much.If a Pally faces 30 or so people and doesn't die then THOSE people suck, and umm, unless you are a really shitty player, a Warrior can take on 3 equal level people and survive just as easily as a Paladin against anything BUT a Paladin. They even have an easier time of it than a Paladin against characters liek Rogues, and they almost ENTIRELY negate a Hunter as they are paste for a Warrior, and Mages and such are also toast, a Warlock has a decently high chance with Fear+Dots. Which is the exact same thing I have said the entire time, to say a Warrior can't handle masses of Mobs as well is ignorant because they can, I do it all the time, and 2 or 3 smart people likewise can take down a Paladin, so howbout you come back with something that is actually RELEVANT to anything I have said instead, k? You have no clue what you are talking about, and dont know anything about Paladins besides what you MIGHT have faced, and in fact from most of what you have said to try and counter me, I don't even think you have much experience having FACED a Paladin to begin with, more its you going off what you have heard others say.
And you sit here and tell me why one person that is NOT a Paladin, should be able to take one down concidering what they are. It can be done anyway, so your point is moot, a single character CAN take down a Paladin if done right and of the right class. And as I have in fact stated before, a single Hunter could do it if they felt like wasting the time, since all it would require is time, and they could easily do it. Try harder, k?
And saying my point of the fact the Paladin isnt immune to magic as being a stupid one just points out how retarded your assumptions are...
And uh.. Try running through Arathi as Alliance where every outpost and community along the eastern borders are all Horde friendly commisioned, not to mention the stronghold, and the Wandering "Kick your ass as they watch you cry" Horde NPCs that wander around all over the place, and then everything else that is nuetral to you, such as the Giant and various other NPCs, so sorry, yer wrong there.
How many level 40+ MASSIVE PvP battles have you been in?
None? OH REALLY?
Listen, Fae. You don't make any sense. Yes, pallies can be beat down, but it takes SIGNIFIGANTLY MORE to kill them then any other class. I understand they're defensive and all, but when they still deal out about as much as a warrior, there is something wrong.
I don't have to play the class to know exactly what they can/can't do in PvP. I've faced enough of them to know what to counter and how to do my job. They STILL walk past battle lines into groups of 30 horde, hit something, get 10 or so people on them, complete with snare effects.. negate them ALL, and run the fuck out. Only thing that sticks are my curses, and they negate those by simply running behind battle lines for a few minutes and waiting for their invul timers to repop (3 mins with talents, right? Tounges lasts 2 mins max.).
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Katrinity stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Go read the Well of Eternity, a Warcraft Novel. It takes place when the Burning Legion first invaded the world. The Queen Azshara (sp) and her Highbourne were the ones who summoned the demons to the world. But also the average Night Elf at that time was haunty, power-hungry, and had an ego the size of a football field. They all pretty much thought the world was their plaything to do with as they liked. Their queen and highbourne took that to an extreme, wanting to rid the world of lesser races.Only a few could be considered good while the vast majority of NEs had to have a wake-up call when the Highbourne unleashed the unrelenting waves of summoned Burning Legion upon their own lands.
Ya, but see the evil was from the faction that became the Highborne. 
Being hauty and such doesn'y make the bad guys, just stupid. The druids and such kept going better stop this, this is bad, and she was all like no no no, our precious, and they were all like, omg you stupid greedy bitch, and she was all like you damn dirty hippies, and then they were like we warned you, and the she was like oh yeah right, and then boom, and the Highbourne paid for what they did, and are still evil in the Naga. No dwarves yet, no humans yet, and the NEs as the world knows em are the protectors, and friends of Cenarius and the like, who are the portectors and caretakers and such and made lots of sacrifices to keep things safe.
The trolls were just damn dirty bloody monkeys that wouldn't stop, the Orcs wanted power after they were released, and were really pissed off at being controlled in the first place, but that didn't stop them from wanted to exert power and authority whereever they saw fit, with power and force, as they saw fit... Which is tyranical which is bad... The Taurens... well they are just stupid cows, whadda they know. They help the bad guys so are bad guys by familiarity... The undead, they are questionable... The forsaken just dont really give a shit and wanna go thier own way, and wanna be left alone, but wont take no shit either. Of course they are an afront to life and goodness in the eyes of most, so are persecuted for it by the humans and such, so eh. They aren't all that nice either, but mostly by delegation.
It still falls more into a civil war more than anything, although the current NEs at least by thier nature are good, and care only about the world preservation, Dwarves are just... There and have thier own crap to deal with, Humans push the freedom and goodness card, to extremes, but still, which is a definitely afront to power and force of the Orcs.
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Faelynn LeAndris had this to say about Duck Tales:
the Orcs wanted power after they were released, and were really pissed off at being controlled in the first place, but that didn't stop them from wanted to exert power and authority whereever they saw fit, with power and force, as they saw fit...
On the contrary.
The orcs were a fairly peaceful, shamanistic race before the Legion corrupted them. Before they fell to Mannoroth's influence, there was no Horde, they were not bloodthirsty savages.
After they were freed from Demonic corruption (When they were first stranded on Azeroth), they immediately get thrown into Internment camps and spend months imprisoned by the alliance. They only fought to escape, and later fought when they were trying to create a place for themselves.
While I could see the invasion of Ashenvale by the Warsong clan for lumber, as an evil act, it could also be argued that at the time, Grom (though he was not fully under demonic control) was under the bloodlust influence of the Legion as they slowly entered the world. Once Mannoroth was killed, and the orcs truly freed, they fought primarily to secure their place in the world (Which they eventually did... when they settled Durotar and built Orgrimmar), which can hardly be considered an evil aspiration.
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Verily, Delphi Aegis doth proclaim:
How many level 40+ MASSIVE PvP battles have you been in?None? OH REALLY?
Listen, Fae. You don't make any sense. Yes, pallies can be beat down, but it takes SIGNIFIGANTLY MORE to kill them then any other class. I understand they're defensive and all, but when they still deal out about as much as a warrior, there is something wrong.
I don't have to play the class to know exactly what they can/can't do in PvP. I've faced enough of them to know what to counter and how to do my job. They STILL walk past battle lines into groups of 30 horde, hit something, get 10 or so people on them, complete with snare effects.. negate them ALL, and run the fuck out. Only thing that sticks are my curses, and they negate those by simply running behind battle lines for a few minutes and waiting for their invul timers to repop (3 mins with talents, right? Tounges lasts 2 mins max.).
Uh hey, smartass, you JUST started getting involved in 40+ situations, so don't gloat too much okay? Plus I could turn around and ask you the same question and get a bogus ansewer.
For the record however I have been in SEVERAL serious PvP situations since I hit 20, I specifically go looking for em, and have a blast doing them, and I've been doing those ever since, well into 30's. Even at the ridicule of Trent and others.
It does NOT take significantly more to beat a Paladin, which is exactly what you keep ignoring, in fact it is quit simple to do if you are smart enough, as I said, alone a Hunter can do it, a pair of Rogues can do it, simple and very strategic. If it takes significantly more of anything to beat them it is brain power, and thinking ahead. They do NOT deal about as much damage as a Warrior, which is the first very wrong assumtion that has been made. They aren't gimp in the damage department, but they cannot in any shape or form, Seals or otherwise keep up with the brutalness of a Warrior.
And your last paragraph just reasserts my belief that you have in fact NOT faced many Paladins, and if they were pulling that and surviving then your group on defense sucks donkey balls plain and simple, or they were all just stupid. And they are NOT going to negate anything, if 10 people land snare effects an everything on a Paladin and STILL can't manage to beat them down as they run away, then again, they all suck, cause thats retarded. What? They magicaly just negate all those snare effects and crap? Bullshit, if something lands BEFORE Invuls go up, it doesnt just magically go away when it comes on, everything that was there before stays. They are not going to lose WingClip or Concussion, or Fear, or Hamstring, or anything else because they just magically get rid of it. Diseases, they can cure, poisons they can cure, but it costs them. And how the hell does a Paladin get a chance to just "Run behind battle lines and wait for any curses to wear off"? I'm sorry, I don't believe you have anywhere near the experience with facing them as you claim.. Either that, or I have repeatedly said, your groups sucked.
And those talents you keep talking about come at a price for other things, and are at the very best you can get. And I'm sorry the no magical immunity thing is a big deal, when a caster 4 levels below me can nuke me for 255 damage a pop instantly and repeatedly at 31, it doesn't take long to wear someone down. A couple casters alone could handle it, and your miraculous negating of abilities wouldnt even save them.
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We were all impressed when Khyron wrote:
On the contrary.The orcs were a fairly peaceful, shamanistic race before the Legion corrupted them. Before they fell to Mannoroth's influence, there was no Horde, they were not bloodthirsty savages.
After they were freed from Demonic corruption (When they were first stranded on Azeroth), they immediately get thrown into Internment camps and spend months imprisoned by the alliance. They only fought to escape, and later fought when they were trying to create a place for themselves.
While I could see the invasion of Ashenvale by the Warsong clan for lumber, as an evil act, it could also be argued that at the time, Grom (though he was not fully under demonic control) was under the bloodlust influence of the Legion as they slowly entered the world. Once Mannoroth was killed, and the orcs truly freed, they fought primarily to secure their place in the world (Which they eventually did... when they settled Durotar and built Orgrimmar), which can hardly be considered an evil aspiration.
Yah, but they didn't stop there is the thing, they wanted more. And if you wanna do who they were before being corrupted, I can and will give you that one. In thier defense, the persecution of the orcs afterwards, had a lot to do with hard feelings and no real understanding of what had actually HAPPENED to the Orcs, so cant really blame the Alliance races for thinking the way they did then.
Which is of course why I said its more akin to a Civil war than anything else. The only ones I would call TRUELY evil would be the Trolls. And the only ones Id call truely good, are the NEs (As we know them now). Everything else is purely civil and personality issues.
... And Taurens are still just stupid cows.
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Faelynn LeAndris had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Yah, but they didn't stop there is the thing, they wanted more. And if you wanna do who they were before being corrupted, I can and will give you that one. In thier defense, the persecution of the orcs afterwards, had a lot to do with hard feelings and no real understanding of what had actually HAPPENED to the Orcs, so cant really blame the Alliance races for thinking the way they did then.Which is of course why I said its more akin to a Civil war than anything else. The only ones I would call TRUELY evil would be the Trolls. And the only ones Id call truely good, are the NEs (As we know them now). Everything else is purely civil and personality issues.
... And Taurens are still just stupid cows.
Trolls arn't evil they just fight amongst themselves... alot. In the end they probably would have rathered to have been just been left alone in stranglethorn.
Naimah fucked around with this message on 12-22-2004 at 06:20 PM.
And leave the Tauren alone. They are alot more intelligent then most people give them credit for.
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Addy's fortune cookie read:
I was always under the impression that the Undead were the truly evil race?
They are. I hate doing their quests.
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A sleep deprived Addy stammered:
I was always under the impression that the Undead were the truly evil race?
Not the Forsaken really... Once they broke off, they just kinda wanted to be left alone and go thier own away, but they were always hunted by the Lich Kinds minions, and they were despised by all things holy, so they just couldnt win. Fell in with the Horde and would just as like betray them if it suited thier needs in the end.
And I'd still say the Trolls were evil because in-fighting aside, they were just agressive ignorant lots who attacked anything and everything just because they didn't like it until the eventually got beat back down. Only reason they really stood a chance was cause they quit fighting themselves long enough to organize something against thier opponents.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Faelynn LeAndris was all like:
Not the Forsaken really... Once they broke off, they just kinda wanted to be left alone and go thier own away, but they were always hunted by the Lich Kinds minions, and they were despised by all things holy, so they just couldnt win. Fell in with the Horde and would just as like betray them if it suited thier needs in the end.And I'd still say the Trolls were evil because in-fighting aside, they were just agressive ignorant lots who attacked anything and everything just because they didn't like it until the eventually got beat back down. Only reason they really stood a chance was cause they quit fighting themselves long enough to organize something against thier opponents.
The undead give you quests to kill small dogs and poison humans. They are evil incarnate. The horde only has a passing alliance with them. I wish they wern't allowed in at all.
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So quoth Faelynn LeAndris:
Not the Forsaken really... Once they broke off, they just kinda wanted to be left alone and go thier own away, but they were always hunted by the Lich Kinds minions, and they were despised by all things holy, so they just couldnt win. Fell in with the Horde and would just as like betray them if it suited thier needs in the end.
Aside from the whole fact they almost all actively working to engineer plagues designed to wipe out all life in the world?
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Naimah thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
The undead give you quests to kill small dogs and poison humans. They are evil incarnate. The horde only has a passing alliance with them. I wish they wern't allowed in at all.
Agreed. For Pete's sake, Varimathras is part of their leadership and their primary goal is to produce plagues to destroy all life that isn't unlife. Not evil? As for the trolls, the aggressiveness and in-fighting makes them savage and war-like, not evil. There is a difference. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 12-22-2004 at 06:29 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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How.... Vorago.... uughhhhhh:
Aside from the whole fact they almost all actively working to engineer plagues designed to wipe out all life in the world?
Yeah, but again that falls back on the whole persecution thing. People wouldnt leave em alone, they are gonna make em.
Although I am not far enough into my Undead Warlock to get everything from them aside from most of the early stuff, can't stand the environment, so I was unaware of the dogs thing... I knew about the plaques though, but it gets into that and why.
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Everyone wondered WTF when Faelynn LeAndris wrote:
Yeah, but again that falls back on the whole persecution thing. People wouldnt leave em alone, they are gonna make em.
Pffft, that is like saying a guy who blows up his high school with a set of high yield explosives isn't a bad person because bullies used to pick on him.
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There was much rejoicing when Faelynn LeAndris said this:
Yeah, but again that falls back on the whole persecution thing. People wouldnt leave em alone, they are gonna make em.Although I am not far enough into my Undead Warlock to get everything from them aside from most of the early stuff, can't stand the environment, so I was unaware of the dogs thing... I knew about the plaques though, but it gets into that and why.
So persecution is justification for genocide? By your reasoning, Israel should be able to nuke the rest of the Middle East without any repercussion of any sort because, hey, the rest of the Middle East hates them and tries to kill them on a regular basis. Also by your reasoning, all of the more primitive tribes in Africa, Australia, South America, and whereever else tribal people exist in a non-modern environment and fight for their lands are evil Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 12-22-2004 at 06:44 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Addy had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
I was always under the impression that the Undead were the truly evil race?
They are. But, as you can see, if you are ever strictly play on one faction in this game, your arguments will be biased for that side.
Orcs did bad shit at one point, and Trolls helped them. Night Elves did bad shit and most were banished, being turned into High Elves, which are now Blood Elves. Humans did bad shit, dwarves and gnomes helped them. The only race that hasn't done much notable bad shit was the Tauren, a nomadic people, consistantly being harassed by the inhabitants of Kalimdor. Once the Horde (led by Thrall) showed up, Centaurs and anything else standing in the way of Tauren got thier asses kicked.
And Fae, the average player doesn't know that Paladins can be cast on through Blessing of Protection. Also, saying that the Horde has more quests (in the levels of 20-30) than Alliance is pretty freakin' silly.
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You also wont see many of them pulling a bunch of lame stunts, such as a group of level 60s camping a HORRIBLY low level area keeping anyone and everyone below thier 20s from doing anything at ALL in the area for several hours, but you will see horde players who think its funny or cool.
And I loved it when Alliance came and camped Bloodhoof for over an hour at one point on Zul'Jin. Remember me saying that factions on different servers have different people and attitudes?
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Faelynn LeAndris's fortune cookie read:
Yeah, but again that falls back on the whole persecution thing. People wouldnt leave em alone, they are gonna make em.
I thought it was pretty well known that the Forsaken's pact with the Horde will last until Sylvanas can take out Arthas and the Scourge. Then, once that happens, she will try to become the next ruler of the world and will have plagues ready to take out any other race on Azeroth.
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Faelynn LeAndris had this to say about Knight Rider:
Yah, but they didn't stop there is the thing, they wanted more. And if you wanna do who they were before being corrupted, I can and will give you that one. In thier defense, the persecution of the orcs afterwards, had a lot to do with hard feelings and no real understanding of what had actually HAPPENED to the Orcs, so cant really blame the Alliance races for thinking the way they did then.
True, I can't blame the alliance races for thinking the Orcs were still a threat, but then you can't blame the Orcs for wanting to be free - from their standpoint, they had just escaped one prison (Figuratively - they were enslaved through the demonic influence Mannoroth had over them), and gone right into another.
As for what they did after they were freed - they did exactly what all of the alliance has done. They expanded their lands and set about taming the world around them to make it their home. They've been trying to expand their influence and extend their lands to have room to grow into as they regain their glory, as it was on Draenor.
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Willias wrote this stupid crap:
And I loved it when Alliance came and camped Bloodhoof for over an hour at one point on Zul'Jin. Remember me saying that factions on different servers have different people and attitudes?
I know that... That was the point I was trying to make, that it was perspective, and what was true there wasn't true nessesarily for Alleria and other places, in fact it was the exact opposite on Alleria, and it was just lame to boil an argument down to It's because they are Alliance, or It's because they are Horde. Which is what everyone keeps doing, especially around here with the omg Alliance fags and stuff.
It's a FICTIONAL faction in a GAME. People in the Horde are not inherantly better than people in the Alliance, and visa versa.
It's annoying.
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Khyron said this about your mom:
True, I can't blame the alliance races for thinking the Orcs were still a threat, but then you can't blame the Orcs for wanting to be free - from their standpoint, they had just escaped one prison (Figuratively - they were enslaved through the demonic influence Mannoroth had over them), and gone right into another.As for what they did after they were freed - they did exactly what all of the alliance has done. They expanded their lands and set about taming the world around them to make it their home. They've been trying to expand their influence and extend their lands to have room to grow into as they regain their glory, as it was on Draenor.
Exactly which is why I said if anything it was more of a Civil War than good and evil.
Oh, and they are ugly, and uglyness must be erradicated!
... And Taurens are still just stupid cows.
Undead (who want to kill everyone) > Humans (who want to enslave everyone) > Night Elves (who want to kill anyone to get their immortality back) > Dwarves (who want to tear up the earth and kill anyone who gets in their way) > Orcs (who just plain want to kill anyone who gets in their way) > Trolls/Gnomes (eh) > Tauren (who cultivate and defend the land)
