Again, not that suprised by this article, but what I thought was interesting is this guy's attempt to claim violation of constitutional rights is so half-assed that at the end of the article, he lets his true motivations come through.

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Moore finds it noteworthy that his ousting and the removal of his Ten Commandments monument from public display last year were followed by the legalization of homosexual marriage in some parts of the U.S. this year. Both in public commentary and in his testimony before federal judges, the former Alabama chief justice has contended that America's moral decline is directly linked to its failure to acknowledge the God of the Bible as sovereign over the nation and its laws.

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Ugh! Roy, seriously, you're not that important. Your granite monument was not the cornerstone of the country's moral fabric, jackass.

Another part of the article which make blood vessels behind my left eye explode:

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And the Alabama judge notes that there is legal precedent for the courts' acknowledgment of God. For instance, he says, "In 1961, the case of Torcaso v. Watkins stands for the proposition that a Maryland notary public didn't have to take an oath to believe in God. The U.S. Supreme Court said it was a religious test."

"In my case, I was excluded for acknowledging the sovereignty of God," Moore explains, "which is -- according to their definition -- a religious test. If it was a religious test then, it should be a religious test now, and I shouldn't be excluded from office."

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What a self-aggrandizing prick. He seems to think that he was fired because he's a Christian. He was removed because he refused to obey a federal court order. Incidentally, there are easier ways to acknowledge God than, say, have a two ton granite slab installed in the dead of night and then refusing to remove it. Many people seem to find wearing a cross around their neck or having a Bible in their briefcase perfectly adequate. Moore's definition seems to include forcing everyone else to acknowledge God's sovreignty, whether they want to or not.

Moreover, I don't even see how his situation could even remotely be called a religious test. He's really grasping for straws.

Hey. let me give you a quote or twenty from some of the most influential people in our countries history.

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The phrase 'separation of Church and state' was first used in Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

Thomas Jefferson also wrote in his "Notes on the State of Virginia," 1781, "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

The Continental Congress, on September 11, 1777, recommended and approved that the Committee of Commerce "import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere," because there was a great need for bibles because of an accute shortage caused by the Revolutionary War.

George Mason, "Father" of the Bill of Rights; "My soul I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, whose tender mercies are all over His works, who hateth nothing that He hath made, and to the justice and wisdom of whose dispensations I willingly and cheerfully submit, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins."

The First Act of Congress following their agreement of the precise wording of the First Amendment (Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...) was to ask President Washington to declare a national day of fasting and prayer!

"Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God," said George Washington in his address to the Constitutional Convention, 1787. "Without a humble imitation of the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, we can never hope to be a happy nation."

George Washington, October 3, 1789, proclaiming a National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving, "It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the Providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and to humbly implore His protection and favor."

George Washington, as President signed into law the Northwest Ordinance in 1789, which stated: "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

Washington's Farewell Address stated, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens... Tis substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule indeed extends with more or less force to every species of free Government...Can it be, that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a Nation with its virtue… It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”

"So help me God," is the conclusion of the Presidential Oath, spoken with hand placed on the Holy Bible. This was Initiated by George Washington and is repeated by every president since.

Alexander Hamilton, Signer of the Constitution All laws, however, may be arranged in two different classes. 1) Divine. 2) Human. . . . But it should always be remembered that this law, natural or revealed, made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source: it is the law of God. . . . Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine.

James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice The law . . . dictated by God Himself is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times. No human laws are of any validity if contrary to this.

Rufus King, Signer of the Constitution The . . . law established by the Creator . . . extends over the whole globe, is everywhere and at all times binding upon mankind. . . . This is the law of God by which he makes his way known to man and is paramount to all human control.

Samuel Adams at the signing of the Declaration of Independence: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come."

Given at Washington, the 9th day of July, A. D. 1812 James Madison Resolution requesting the President of the United States to recommend a day of public humiliation and prayer. It being a duty peculiarly incumbent in a time of public calamity and war, humbly and devoutly to acknowledge our dependence on Almighty God, and to implore his aid and protection:

Therefore, Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That a joint committee of both Houses wait on the President of the United States, and request that he recommend a day of public humiliation and prayer to be observed by the people of the United States, with religious solemnity, and the offering of fervent supplications to the Almighty God for the safety and welfare of these States, His blessing on their arms, and the speedy restoration of peace.

A Proclamation. By the President of the United States of America Whereas the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the people of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of public humiliation and prayer:

And whereas such a recommendation will enable the several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which He has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign Power to involve these United States;

I do therefore recommend a convenient day to be set apart, for the devout purposes of rendering the Sovereign of the Universe, and the Benefactor of Mankind. The public homage due to His holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasure; of seeking his merciful forgiveness, and His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and, especially, of offering fervent supplications, that, in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American people under His peculiar care and protection; that He would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require that others should do to them; and, finally, that turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of peace.

William Penn said, "The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded."

United States Supreme Court: Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892, 143 US 457, "These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation." (p.471) [This U. S. Supreme Court opinion includes a lengthy and detailed record of the historic evidences of America's Christian heritage.] John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1813, pointed out the common thread amongst the founders: "The general principles, on which the fathers achieved independence, were the only principles in which that assembly of young gentlemen could unite... And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all these sects were united..."

Said Adams, "Statesmen...may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a Greater Measure, than we have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty… We have no Government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

John Quincy Adams, “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with those of Christianity."

Samuel Adams: "Let each citizen remember at the moment he is offering his vote that he is not making a present or a compliment to please an individual - - or at least that he ought not so to do; but that he is executing one of the most solemn trusts in human society for which he is accountable to God and his country."

"The right of the colonist as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Lawgiver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."

James Iredell (1751-1799), Supreme Court Justice: "I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principle and practice."

Benjamin Rush (1745-1813), Signer of Declaration and the father of Public Schools: "My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!"

Roger Sherman (1721-1793) Signer of all four major founding documents: "I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, an the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him."

Joseph Story (1779-1845), U.S. Congressman and Supreme Court Justice: "There is not a truth to be gathered from history more certain, or more momentous, than this: that civil liberty cannot long be separated from religious liberty without danger, and ultimately without destruction to both. Wherever religious liberty exists, it will, first or last, bring in and establish political liberty."

Alexis de Tocqueville (1805-1859), French philosopher and Statesman who visited America during the American Revolution: "Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great."

De Tocqueville observed, "In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country... I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? -- But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions... In the United States the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America..."

Patrick Henry said, “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience."

John Jay, first Supreme Court Justice, said: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

Noah Webster (1758-1843): "The Bible must be considered as the great source of all the truth by which men are to be guided in government as well as in all social transactions..."

James Wilson (1742-1798), Signer of the Constitution: "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority for that law which is divine...far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform" (Madison, Annals of Congress, 1789).

Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence, "Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."John Dickenson, signer of the Declaration of Independence, "The rights essential to happiness.... We claim them from a higher source -from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth."

Benjamin Franklin, 1778, "A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district all studied and appreciated as they merit - are the principle support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty."

Andrew Jackson, "You have the highest of human trusts committed to your care. Providence has showered on this favored land blessings without number, and has chosen you as the guardians of freedom, to preserve it for the benefit of the human race. May He who holds in his hands the destinies of nations, make you worthy of the favors He has bestowed, and enabled you with pure hearts and hands and sleepless vigilance, to guard and defend to the end of time, the great charge He has committed to your keeping."

Said Jackson, "The Bible is the foundation upon which our republic rests."

William Henry Harrison, "I deem the present occasion sufficiently important and solemn to justify me in expressing to my fellow-citizens a profound reverence for the Christian religion and a thorough conviction that sound morals, religious liberty, and a just sense of religious responsibility are essentially connected with all true and lasting happiness; and to that good Being who has blessed us by the gifts of civil and religious freedom, who watched over and prospered the labors of our fathers and has hitherto preserved to us institutions far exceeding in excellence those of any other people, let us unite in fervently commending every interest of our beloved country in all future time."

James Knox Polk, "In assuming responsibilities so vast I fervently invoke the aid of that Almighty Ruler of the Universe in whose hands are the destinies of nations and of men to guard this Heaven-favored land against the mischief's which without His guidance might arise from an unwise public policy. With a firm reliance upon the wisdom of Omnipotence to sustain and direct me in the path of duty which I am appointed to pursue, I stand in the presence of this assembled multitude of my countrymen to take upon myself the solemn obligation to the best of my ability to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Rutherford B. Hayes, Inaugural Address, March 5, 1877, "Looking for the guidance of that Divine Hand by which the destinies of nations and individuals are shaped, I call upon you, Senators, Representatives, judges, fellow-citizens, here and everywhere, to unite with me in an earnest effort to secure to our country the blessings, not only of material prosperity, but of justice, peace, and union—a union depending not upon the constraint of force, but upon the loving devotion of a free people; and that all things may be so ordered and settled upon the best and surest foundations that peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and piety, may be established among us for all generations."

Woodrow Wilson, "Give the Bible to the people, unadulterated, pure, unaltered, unexplained, un-cheapened, and then see it work through the whole nature."

Warren G. Harding, "It is my conviction that the fundamental trouble with the people of the United States is that they have gotten too far away from Almighty God."

Calvin Coolidge, "America seeks no earthly empire built on blood and force. No ambition, no temptation, lures her to thought of foreign dominions. The legions which she sends forth are armed, not with the sword, but with the cross. The higher state to which she seeks the allegiance of all mankind is not of human, but of divine origin. She cherishes no purpose save to merit the favor of Almighty God."

Dwight D Eisenhower, "The purpose of a devout and united people was set forth in the pages of The Bible … (1) to live in freedom, (2) to work in a prosperous land… and (3) to obey the commandments of God… This Biblical story of the promised land inspired the founders of America. It continues to inspire us."

John F. Kennedy, "And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. ...With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own."

Jimmy Carter, "Here before me is the Bible used in the inauguration of our first President, in 1789, and I have just taken the oath of office on the Bible my mother gave me a few years ago, opened to a timeless admonition from the ancient prophet Micah: 'He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.' (Micah 6:8)."

Ronald Reagan, "If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under."

Said Reagan, "All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, but those who believe must be free to speak of and act on their belief, to apply moral teaching to public questions… Tolerant society is open to and encouraging of all religions, and this does not weaken us; it strengthens us… Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society and without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure."

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"In God We Trust" is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. "In God We Trust" was adopted by Congress in 1956 as the national motto, which was upheld by three Federal Appeals Courts in 1996 and the Supreme Court in 1977. The motto also hangs on the wall at the Supreme Court.

Azizza fucked around with this message on 05-29-2004 at 12:31 AM.

If one "sin" is to be outlawed, then why not the rest, hmm?

Darius! fucked around with this message on 05-29-2004 at 12:36 AM.

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Darius! enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
You should be following the bible entirely if you're a Christian. You can't pick and choose, sorry ;(

If one "sin" is to be outlawed, then why not the rest, hmm?

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I will thank you not to covet my ass.

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The propaganda machine of Azizza's junta released this statement:
Yeah I mean it isn't like this country was founded with christian principles by mainly christian men. Oh wait.... No matter how hard you scream out against it you cant' change that fact. I know it doesn't fit within your nice little fantasy but hey. Welcome to reality.

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What the fuck does that have to do with this case? You can appeal to tradition all you like, but just because you constantly do it doesn't make it any more valid an argument.

Guess what, moron: A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE CHRISTIAN BACK THEN. A lot of people are Christian today(I think most estimates peg it as 75% of the U.S. population identified themselves as Christian in 2001). Just because something's a common practice does not automatically grant it precedential authority. (Fallacy #2, for those keeping count)

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Congress can't force you to follow a certain religion, they can't outlaw any, and they can't establish a "Church of America". No where in any text does it say that a Judge can't hang up the Ten commandments or have a bible at the bench.

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Nice red herring, but the reason Moore was removed is because he refused to obey a federal court order. What he should've done was obeyed the court order and then contested it. At least then he would've kept his job. And where's ol' Royboy being forced to follow a specific religion, again? (#3)

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Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom FROM religion.

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Thank you for that idiotic sentiment. At least we now know that you favor the state supporting all religions equally and telling those with no religion to go fuck themselves.

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Hey. let me give you a quote or twenty from some of the most influential people in our countries history.

-snip the biggest appeal to authority I've ever seen(#4, even though it should count as like...60)-

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Well, thank you for telling me the opinions of fifty-plus dead men. I find it quite hilarious that if anyone in American history has said anything positive about God, Jesus, or anything remotely related to Christianity, it automatically proves that they they were the most upright, pious, Christian men we've ever seen. I'm afraid though, that your appeal to their authority does not impress me. Moreover, to validate the ones which make any sense, you're going to have to prove God's existence.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

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"In God We Trust" is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. "In God We Trust" was adopted by Congress in 1956 as the national motto, which was upheld by three Federal Appeals Courts in 1996 and the Supreme Court in 1977. The motto also hangs on the wall at the Supreme Court.

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Oooh, it appears in government buildings! And on our money! AND in the Supreme Court! Well gosh, if it appears in all those places, it has to be right, right? It's obvious that since the majority of those important people believe in God, it's right to shove that believe in everyone's face! How silly of me!(#5)

Again, your appeals to authority may sway other people, but I'm not so easily moved. You're going to have to work a lot harder to convince me that it's right and proper for the state to endorse religion over non-religion.

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The logic train ran off the tracks when Karnaj said:
Ugh! Roy, seriously, you're not that important. Your granite monument was not the cornerstone of the country's moral fabric, jackass.

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I think you misread that line. He is saying that the United States's moral decline is due to the fact that they refuse to acknowledge one god or another, not that the moral decline is atrributed to the removal of the 10 commandments from the court house.

Though he says that the legalization of gay marriage was followed by the removement of the 10 commandments, it's not a slipperly slope argument more as a "see told you so." (that the moral values of the country are declining)

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Noxhil stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
I think you misread that line. He is saying that the United States's moral decline is due to the fact that they refuse to acknowledge one god or another, not that the moral decline is atrributed to the removal of the 10 commandments from the court house.

Though he says that the legalization of gay marriage was followed by the removement of the 10 commandments, it's not a slipperly slope argument more as a "see told you so." (that the moral values of the country are declining)

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Loveless, horrible marriages are a-okay, as long as it's between a man and a woman!

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Delphi Aegis had this to say about dark elf butts:
Loveless, horrible marriages are a-okay, as long as it's between a man and a woman!

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If you are unable to contribute anything to a discussion I suggest you go away. I'm not sure what prompted you to quote me and say that, but as I am pro-legalization of gay marriage I think you are seriously confused in your attempt to be witty.

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Noxhil still thinks SARS jokes are topical, as evidenced by:
I think you misread that line. He is saying that the United States's moral decline is due to the fact that they refuse to acknowledge one god or another, not that the moral decline is atrributed to the removal of the 10 commandments from the court house.

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But he's said that his monument acknowledges God. Ergo, removal of said monument is part of the moral decline.

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Though he says that the legalization of gay marriage was followed by the removement of the 10 commandments, it's not a slipperly slope argument more as a "see told you so." (that the moral values of the country are declining)

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It's not a slippery slope argument; it's an example of the Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy. The translated Latin reads "After This, Therefore Because Of This." He assumes that because gay marriage was legalized after the removal of the monument, the removal of the monument paved the way for the legalization of gay marriage. Since the connection between the two is not obvious and, in all likelyhood, doesn't exist, and he makes no attempt to explain it further, his argument is invalid.

Fallacy quoting, check
Aethiest ego stroking, check
Personal attacks, check...wait, that's a fallacy too...so why keep making them while yelling at others for doing so? Or is it only ok for you to do it?

Practice what you preach.

Seriously, you're playing a tired old tune here. Im beginning to think these posts are boiling down to nothing more then "look at me, I'm an aethiest who can quote fallacies" posts. *yawn*

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Reynar painfully thought these words up:
Oh look, another Karnaj flame thread:

Fallacy quoting, check
Aethiest ego stroking, check
Personal attacks, check...wait, that's a fallacy too...so why keep making them while yelling at others for doing so? Or is it only ok for you to do it?

Practice what you preach.

Seriously, you're playing a tired old tune here. Im beginning to think these posts are boiling down to nothing more then "look at me, I'm an aethiest who can quote fallacies" posts. *yawn*

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So, what you're saying is if he didn't make personal attacks his arguments would be 100% valid? It'd be really hard for you to make a legitimate stance otherwise.

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This one time, at Kegwen camp:
So, what you're saying is if he didn't make personal attacks his arguments would be 100% valid? It'd be really hard for you to make a legitimate stance otherwise.

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No, I'm saying if he's going to be jumping around as the fallacy police all the time, he should not be making them himself.

It's what we call hypocrisy.

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We were all impressed when Pvednes wrote:
I find it amusing when people jump on the "hur hur logic is fur nurds" bandwagon. Automatically invalid arguments are not something to be proud of.

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Exactly. Karnaj is just asking for the impossible; a logical, well-reasoned reason as to why God is so important. Or that he exists.

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Reynar screamed this from the crapper:
Oh look, another Karnaj flame thread:

Fallacy quoting, check
Aethiest ego stroking, check
Personal attacks, check...wait, that's a fallacy too...so why keep making them while yelling at others for doing so? Or is it only ok for you to do it?

Practice what you preach.

Seriously, you're playing a tired old tune here. Im beginning to think these posts are boiling down to nothing more then "look at me, I'm an aethiest who can quote fallacies" posts. *yawn*

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Reynar comes in and makes fun of Karnaj for being able to spot idiotic arguments, check.

Of course, if you read more closely, you'll see that I did not base my rebuttal on namecalling. Then again, you've shown blatant contempt for logic in the past. An ad hominem works like this:

"You are a moron, and because you are a moron, your arguments are invalid."

What I said amounts to:

"You are a moron, but your arguments are invalid because they make no sense."

That's simply--to quote Mr. Spock--a colorful metaphor. If Azizza can't or won't make a rational argument for something, you can't hope to claim validity just because you don't like to be shown that his argument is illogical.

And now, I challenge you to cite what you call "aethiest(sic) ego stroking."

EDIT: misspelled the misspelling

Karnaj fucked around with this message on 05-29-2004 at 02:08 AM.

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Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Tron:
We should write an official Rules of Engagement for flame threads.

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Well, you should anyhow. It could amuse and inform, like the noob guide from long ago!

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Zair had this to say about Cuba:
Well, you should anyhow. It could amuse and inform, like the noob guide from long ago!

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The first rule of engagement: You get shat on every thread.

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This insanity brought to you by Mr. Parcelan:
The first rule of engagement: You get shat on every thread.

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See? Already it is a riot. Now get back to work.

He lost his job because he put something in his workplace that higher authorities in the chain of command felt didn't belong there. I could come to work and put a sign up that says "Burn all fag jews" if I wanted to, or something as simple as a potted plant. If I was told by my superiors that it was a problem and didn't belong there, and I adamantly refused to remove either of the items, however offensive or nonoffensive they were, then I should rightly expect to lose my job.

This guy trying to wipe our noses in what he perceives to be a giant pile of dogshit is the same thing in spirit as people who get fired in the aforementioned scenario turning around and suing their former employers for wrongful dismissal. They try to appeal to things by making their fuck up a symptom of a larger problem beyond their control.

That's where this guy messed up. He could've been a Moslem, a Buddhist, or a Satanist, and it wouldn't matter. He could've been an Atheist putting up an idol to nietzschian (I know I misspelled that) spiritual nihilism. It doesn't matter. A higher authority in his job's chain of command told him not to, he did it anyway, and he got fired. Any appeals beyond that are parallel to a fundamental flaw in the overall system you see everywhere else.

Likewise, as usual, there's a fundamental problem with all the arguments made, and you can answer them with one word: Gydyon. Bear with me as I explain my point.

The United States Government was, in fact, created by a bunch of Christians. They were the only ones with any real power in the new nation. If they intended to limit that control to just Christians, however, they could have phrased things differently than they did. Instead, they wrote things in such a manner that all people, regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) could function with all the rights they felt inherent in the system.

At the same time, however, they included slavery as being legal (though as any US History buff will tell you, there was a serious question about slavery even back then that got shelved and was allowed to get out of hand). That was eventually overturned. And then women and blacks were given the right to vote. Evolution of the nation, right? Good thing, right?

Yes. Definitely a good thing. But can you evolve to the point where the spirit is more important than the bones? That's a dangerous potential.

You can't have an ethical, moral nation without it's share of philosophers. Modern thinking? A century ago, modern thinking included yougurt enemas and electroshock therapy to the groin to promote good health. A few decades ago, Alcatraz was shut down due to the out-of-control, inhumane conditions in the prison there, despite it being the most modern and up to date prison at the time.

And a lot of philosophers, for one reason or another, are religious. Being spiritually inclined while being responsible means you have to be a philosopher.

Take Gydyon for example. He is a Christian (very much so), he walks the path and has the mentality and ethics down. He draws strength from his beliefs, and from the philosophy he's built from his beliefs. At the same time, however, he's also a lawyer.

Should Gydyon, as he does his job, completely ignore the ethics and morality and sense of balance and philosophical right and wrong that he happens to derive from his faith? Of course not. But neither should he let his religion rule his life from moment to moment. Gydyon is not a zealot out to force his beliefs on others.

Gydyon and my friend Leonard (who's a police dispatcher) are the two most well-balanced Christians I've ever encountered. They've figured out the secret: Keep your faith, keep your job, let neither outweigh the other, and guide your life by drawing strength from both.

Be wary of the atheist zealot as much as you avoid the religious nut. End up following the path of absolute logic, and become a Vulcan you will. Have sex only during pon far.

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This one time, at Mr. Parcelan camp:
We should write an official Rules of Engagement for flame threads.

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Good idea.

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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Zair said:
anti-Nader

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The Termi-Nader

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael said this about your mom:
The Termi-Nader

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That is the most singularly horrible pun I have yet seen on these boards.

You should be banned for just THINKING it up.

Wasn't everyone defending him by saying that his posting the commandments didn't necessarily mean he was going to judge people by them? And now he's coming out and saying that the problems with America are due to people not following the word of God above the laws of the country?

Gee, maybe we were right in removing them from the courthouse after all! Who'd have thought? Next time a republican whines and whines about "activist judges", I'm going to point them to this guy.

Drysart fucked around with this message on 05-29-2004 at 03:44 AM.

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Tareshinal Model 2000 was programmed to say:
I see it as this: If we are to have freedom of religion, who cares if the 10 Commandments are in the courthouse, who gives a shit if the judge carries a Bible with him in the courtroom. Thats his decision. Sure separation from Church and State but no matter how hard you try, there will always be a mix of religion and state, you just cant get rid of it. I agree Karnaj, he should've taken them down then challanged the supream court.

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Sorry, but that's just not very well thought out.

If the judge wants to wallpaper his home with the ten commandments, memorize the Bible in his spare time, and tatoo the seven deadly sins on his wang. . .more power to him. But, when he displays such things in his courthouse, as an expression of his official position as a member of the United States Government, then he has crossed the line. It's especially egregious in someone of power in the judiciary, since even the appearance of unfairness undermines the entire system.

Further, your inane assertion that, since we can't ever succeed 100%, we should just bow to the inevitable and succumb to theocracy is rather disturbing. Our system works because people aren't afraid to fight the little battles.

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Bloodsage had this to say about Pirotess:
and tatoo the seven deadly sins on his wang. . .more power to him.

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I laughed way to hard at that...

Karnaj arguments make me smile.

Encore une fois!

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Jens had this to say about Pirotess:
This is the best thread ever.

Karnaj arguments make me smile.

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In fact, he opens up with the biggest laugh of them all: Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson was the biggest Deist of them all, and was a card carrying member of the Freemasons. Thomas Jefferson thought the bible was a big pile of shit, and even wrote his own version of the Bible that focused on Jesus' moral teachings and not the fact that he was the Son of God and all the supposed supernatural events that occured surrounding him, which the Scientist in him didn't believe.

The problem is that everytime someone like Azizza sees the word "God" they immediately assume it's referring to the Christian God, and then they do another leap and assume they're speaking of it in a good manner.

In fact, Thomas Jefferson is another great example of this. There is a quote from Thomas Jefferson etched into the Jefferson Memorial. It reads as follows:

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."

I catch a fit of the giggles everytime someone uses Thomas Jefferson in general, or this quote in particular to defend the 100% incorrect and ignorant notion that we were founded by a bunch of Christians. That quote is a favorite of Christians trying to rewrite history. What they don't know, and what I gleefully pounce on them with after they use it as proof, is that Jefferson is attacking Christianity and it's leaders in that quote. The quote came from a letter to a friend Jefferson had in Philidelphia, after he warned Jefferson the Clergy were planning to protest against him(Apparently, the fact that Christians were Jefferson's main opponents never made it into the history books the Christians read). Here is the full quote:

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, and the Clergy believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me, and enough too in their opinion, and this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me."

And George Washington is laughable. George Washington never once went to Church after leaving his parent's household. The only person to ever claim George Washington was a Christian was a Christian Minister who wrote a book about him that has not one single basis in history. The same book holds the original story of George Washington and the Cherry Tree. You believe that, as well?

And because I'm late for work I cut the pwning of Azizza short, I bring out the Ace that trumpts any such argument of us being a Christian nation:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

It was signed by one of your devout Christians you listed above. teehee, brutus

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We were all impressed when JooJooFlop wrote:
On a somewhat related note, am I the only one annoyed when people say our laws were founded on Christian values? As if Christians were the first to come up with the idea that everyone killing eachother all willy nilly was a bad thing.

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Christians are the only good people. God said so. Praise God.

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JooJooFlop had this to say about Tron:
On a somewhat related note, am I the only one annoyed when people say our laws were founded on Christian values? As if Christians were the first to come up with the idea that everyone killing eachother all willy nilly was a bad thing.

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No.