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Zaza had this to say about pies:
This is hilarious. So vengeance is always justifiable, no matter how horribly it misses its target? And any amount of casualties of completely innocent people is acceptable as long as you get to feel that you fought back?If a guy that lived in your neighbourhood shot my brother, and I carpet bombed the area where he lives, wiping out your family, would you praise me for not getting bullied by common sense and laws? Or are you just going to fall back on the good old excuse of middle eastern people all being terrorists and deserving to die?
1) I never said it was always justifiable, or even whether it was in this case, although I have no qualms with it.
2) You overexhaggerate the death toll, casualties, and what the innocents suffered in all of this. 
Your twisting the facts in order to garner sympathy to a cause that just wasn't there. There was no carpet bombing, there was limited civilian casualities, very specific strategic, military, and TERRORIST targets were taken out, and it was very systematic. It was not just all ho-hum, blow em all up.
And when you have gone through OVER 3 decades of shit from one specific part of the world being thrown your way, in the form of terrorism, that has actually INCREASED over that time span. You really start to lose sympathy.
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This one time, at Naimah camp:
Taking out is different then carpet bombing. Taking out, is what we did to Iraq.
Well, "elimnated" to be exact. What Fae said, was quite simply, that misdirected vengeance, thumbing your nose at the UN, and his own broad generalization of an area of the world were justifications enough to invade it and cause losses of innocent lives.
And you're really just picking on details. If I replace "carpet bombing" with "firing into a crowd in which the person I wanted my vengeance was in", will you be happy?
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There was much rejoicing when Faelynn LeAndris said this:
1) I never said it was always justifiable, or even whether it was in this case, although I have no qualms with it.2) You overexhaggerate the death toll, casualties, and what the innocents suffered in all of this.
Your twisting the facts in order to garner sympathy to a cause that just wasn't there. There was no carpet bombing, there was limited civilian casualities, very specific strategic, military, and TERRORIST targets were taken out, and it was very systematic. It was not just all ho-hum, blow em all up.
And when you have gone through OVER 3 decades of shit from one specific part of the world being thrown your way, in the form of terrorism, that has actually INCREASED over that time span. You really start to lose sympathy.
I never said there was carpet bombing. I just said there was proximity damage. And that if you're just aiming for vengeance, and such horribly misdirected one at that, the civilians that died are no different than if I accidentally killed your family while trying to get my vengeance.
The carpet bombing analogy doesn't really hold for Iraq, because yes, there were some efforts to limit civilian casualties, but the very basis, the "accidental deaths", does. If you're going to accept that innocent people will die, you damn well have a better reason for invading than a bruised ego. Zaza fucked around with this message on 05-18-2004 at 12:10 PM.
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Zaza had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
I did. But it was utterly irrelevant. The Iraq war had nothing to do with saving civilians, and there were way better targets you could hit if you wanted to save civilians, targets that would offer much less resistance and be much more suspectible to rebuild.So again, what's your point?
So it is irrelevant that there we multible reason for invading? The fact that intellegence led us to believe there were WMD. The fact that there were weapons that violated the UNs agreement with them. The fact that there were human rights issues. If the Middle East has a loose cannon then our economy is put on the rocks, and needs to be protected.
Sure, we didn't find any WMD, but it comes down to there was more reasons then WMD to invade Iraq.
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Faelynn LeAndris thought about the meaning of life:
what does bringing up the Monroe Doctrine have to do anything concidering it was a statment made to ward off European influences from taking over more of the North AMERICAN continent, not us invading and taking away from anyone else.
That's the why of it, but the how is that it sets up a whole isolationist policy to not intervene in other countries' affairs so they don't intervene in yours. Then came the corollaries, each time to basically justify an action that would otherwise break such a policy. In spite of all this... I can't name a single time since WW2 where international American intervention brought any good.
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Nobody really understood why Faelynn LeAndris wrote:
As far as the WMD, I couldn't give a rat's ass.
That nicely sums up the administrative opinion, then! We don't give a rat's ass about justification, let's just invade them?
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Nobody really understood why Faelynn LeAndris wrote:
The middle east is a sesspool.
I agree. Does that make me want to eliminate all their political and spiritual leaders?
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Nobody really understood why Faelynn LeAndris wrote:
It is a matter of jealousy in human nature plain and simple. Its like Poor versus the Rich in human nature, Poor people hate Rich people for what they have, same as the middle east. They hate the US because of what we have compared to thier struggling and shitty way of life. At least thats MY opinion on thier hatred.
Well, your opinion is probably wrong, then. Maybe they just want the exact same thing you guys wanted when you made the aforementioned Monroe doctrine... When you fought so hard for independence? Just not to have their affairs meddled in constantly?
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Nobody really understood why Faelynn LeAndris wrote:
REgardless, I think they should have been elimnated in the 70's, I have no qualms about it happening now.
And that's the problem with this whole thing. Americans think they should blow stuff up, but the rest of the world increasingly disagrees. You people are losing the little international credibility you have, and you try to justify it by belittling France and other countries that disagree with you, or any UN decision, for that matter. There are some (not me... yet ) that say the U.S. is being downright imperialistic.
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Naimah had this to say about the Spice Girls:
As soon as Africans start ramming plains into buildings then we can blow their shit up as well.
Then why aren't you chasing after Al'Quaeda? Last I checked you were pretty much sidetracked upon that holy quest for this other one.
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Zaza was listening to Cher while typing:
Well, "elimnated" to be exact. What Fae said, was quite simply, that misdirected vengeance, thumbing your nose at the UN, and his own broad generalization of an area of the world were justifications enough to invade it and cause losses of innocent lives.And you're really just picking on details. If I replace "carpet bombing" with "firing into a crowd in which the person I wanted my vengeance was in", will you be happy?
For one, I am not ill-informed, and have quite a bit of military knowledge. I have also lived through these decades I speak of, as all of this stuff has happened. And again, I never said it was justified, or always justifiable, I said I have no qualms with it finnally happening.
And sure I'd thumb my nose at the UN, they are effectively useless. Period. We went after Al-Queda, and we took out a few troublemakers on the way, then finished up a mess started with Saddam in the 90's. We did not go 'randomly firing into a group of people because the person we wanted vengeance against was in there' nor did we go on random killing sprees or mass murdering circle jerks. For the most part it was precise, well excuted, and surgical. Most of the rest is media hype and hopplah cause it gets ratings and controversy.
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Naimah's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
So it is irrelevant that there we multible reason for invading? The fact that intellegence led us to believe there were WMD. The fact that there were weapons that violated the UNs agreement with them. The fact that there were human rights issues. If the Middle East has a loose cannon then our economy is put on the rocks, and needs to be protected.Sure, we didn't find any WMD, but it comes down to there was more reasons then WMD to invade Iraq.
Okay. So if there were multiple purposes for invading, that must mean no single one could have been justification in itself, as you seemed to say that the mass graves were?
About the WMDs: Remember the weapons inspections? Remember how nothing was turning up? Yeah.
About the mass graves: Again, there's way better targets.
About being a loose cannon: Who has Iraq attacked since the Kuwait war, exactly? Besides itself.
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Zaza stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
I never said there was carpet bombing. I just said there was proximity damage. And that if you're just aiming for vengeance, and such horribly misdirected one at that, the civilians that died are no different than if I accidentally killed your family while trying to get my vengeance.The carpet bombing analogy doesn't really hold for Iraq, because yes, there were some efforts to limit civilian casualties, but the very basis, the "accidental deaths", does. If you're going to accept that innocent people will die, you damn well have a better reason for invading than a bruised ego.
If civilian casualties are completly disallowed, we might as well disband our army.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Faelynn LeAndris said:
For one, I am not ill-informed, and have quite a bit of military knowledge. I have also lived through these decades I speak of, as all of this stuff has happened. And again, I never said it was justified, or always justifiable, I said I have no qualms with it finnally happening.And sure I'd thumb my nose at the UN, they are effectively useless. Period. We went after Al-Queda, and we took out a few troublemakers on the way, then finished up a mess started with Saddam in the 90's. We did not go 'randomly firing into a group of people because the person we wanted vengeance against was in there' nor did we go on random killing sprees or mass murdering circle jerks. For the most part it was precise, well excuted, and surgical. Most of the rest is media hype and hopplah cause it gets ratings and controversy.
You didn't finish up anything. Unless you didn't notice it, the war is still going on. The original attack was well executed, precise and surgical. However, the complete lack of any plan to execute after "Mission Accomplished" means that it's all one huge-ass mess. Just like Afghanistan.
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Naimah had this to say about (_|_):
If civilian casualties are completly disallowed, we might as well disband our army.
Hi.
I didn't say they aren't allowed. I said that you need a good reason to start a war, since innocent people are going to die. I wasn't even talking about the Iraq war, I was talking about how Fae had no qualms starting a war just for vengeance, or for America's bruised ego.
Stop trying to twist what I'm saying, please. Zaza fucked around with this message on 05-18-2004 at 12:17 PM.
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This insanity brought to you by Zaza:
About the WMDs: Remember the weapons inspections? Remember how nothing was turning up? Yeah.
Actually I think they recently found some stockpiles of Sarin Gas, which was one of the chemical nerve gases we were concerned about being used in WMD.
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Katrinity had this to say about Punky Brewster:
Actually I think they recently found some stockpiles of Sarin Gas, which was one of the chemical nerve gases we were concerned about being used in WMD.
Interesting. Link?
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Zaza's fortune cookie read:
Okay. So if there were multiple purposes for invading, that must mean no single one could have been justification in itself, as you seemed to say that the mass graves were?About the WMDs: Remember the weapons inspections? Remember how nothing was turning up? Yeah.
About the mass graves: Again, there's way better targets.
About being a loose cannon: Who has Iraq attacked since the Kuwait war, exactly? Besides itself.
You would be hard pressed to find another country that had that many sticking points.
Remember the dance the Iraqis were playing? They would stall forever and act incredibly suspicious. We would have visual reconisance then stuff would just disapear. Seemed resonable to me to suspect a little bit of foul play.
And you forgot that they were in violation of their agreement of the UN.
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Zaza wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Hi.I didn't say they aren't allowed. I said that you need a good reason to start a war, since innocent people are going to die. I wasn't even talking about the Iraq war, I was talking about how Fae had no qualms starting a war just for vengeance, or for America's bruised ego.
Stop trying to twist what I'm saying, please.
Hey, start reading what I'm typing please. I'm been providing justification. You have just been stuck on there wasn't VX gas on every street corner.
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Katrinity got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Actually I think they recently found some stockpiles of Sarin Gas, which was one of the chemical nerve gases we were concerned about being used in WMD.
It was a single shell, which doesn't necessarily mean larger stock piles exist.
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Naimah had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
You would be hard pressed to find another country that had that many sticking points.Remember the dance the Iraqis were playing? They would stall forever and act incredibly suspicious. We would have visual reconisance then stuff would just disapear. Seemed resonable to me to suspect a little bit of foul play.
And you forgot that they were in violation of their agreement of the UN.
I'm sorry, but it just seems to me that whenever we're in an argument like this, people seem to shift from excuse to excuse to excuse.
I honestly don't know what to think of the original Iraq war. It all depends on wheter the Administration knew they only had guesses on the WMD issue. To me, it seems more likely they "sexed up" the threat, to get support for a war that was basically, a childish dream.
We just need to strike! The Iraqis will run away as soon as they see us and become democratic! Rebuilding will be easy!
The Iraq war has been plagued with an utter and total lack of foresight, and that's why it's such an utter and total mess now, and you can't even pull out, since it would do EVEN MORE damage.
The Iraq War could well have worked, if a realistic plan for rebuilding had been created.
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Naimah's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Hey, start reading what I'm typing please. I'm been providing justification. You have just been stuck on there wasn't VX gas on every street corner.
Hey. You took my analogy regarding fighting for vengeance and somehow converted it into "Cluster Bombing was used in Iraq", so don't complain about reading comprehension.
And stuck on not being VX gas on every street corner? That's such a hilarious simplication and exhaggeration. I commented on your other justifications, and the fact remains, that if you say you're fighting a war to stop WMDs, there will be some commentary if you fail to present any WMDs.
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Zaza was naked while typing this:
Interesting. Link?
Excuse me, it wasn't a stockpile. It was a shell (tank?) that had been rigged as a proximity mine with Sarin gas inside it. I remembered wrong
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.main/index.html
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Katrinity had this to say about Captain Planet:
Excuse me, it wasn't a stockpile. It was a shell (tank?) that had been rigged as a proximity mine with Sarin gas inside it. I remembered wronghttp://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.main/index.html
Interesting, but definitely no clear indication of a WMD stockpile or even a single WMD.
Besides, more than a few nations have nerve gas, and don't get attacked for it.
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Zaza stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
I'm sorry, but it just seems to me that whenever we're in an argument like this, people seem to shift from excuse to excuse to excuse.I honestly don't know what to think of the original Iraq war. It all depends on wheter the Administration knew they only had guesses on the WMD issue. To me, it seems more likely they "sexed up" the threat, to get support for a war that was basically, a childish dream.
We just need to strike! The Iraqis will run away as soon as they see us and become democratic! Rebuilding will be easy!
The Iraq war has been plagued with an utter and total lack of foresight, and that's why it's such an utter and total mess now, and you can't even pull out, since it would do EVEN MORE damage.
The Iraq War could well have worked, if a realistic plan for rebuilding had been created.
A what is this magical 'realistic plan' that the administration should have consulted you for? Personally, I say they are doing a pretty bang up job for having random people shooting you.
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Zaza thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Interesting, but definitely no clear indication of a WMD stockpile or even a single WMD.
It was a WMD thats pretty good evidence of it.
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Well there goes that argument.Besides, more than a few nations have nerve gas, and don't get attacked for it.
Yea, but most nations don't have a UN sanction against them.
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How.... Nina.... uughhhhhh:
I agree. Does that make me want to eliminate all their political and spiritual leaders?
Nope, and it wouldn't have been for me either. Just on the fact they are a 3rd world country and lacking that is. It was WHO and WHAT thier Spiritual and Political leaders WERE that warranted that. Chickshit terrorist, and powermoguls, with no qualms on mass destruction, fear, suffering, corruption, genocide, and any other numerous offenses that puts them on the shitlist. And again saying that it would only stop with America is completely naive. If left unchecked and left to continue IRaq's influence and torment would continue to spread, and we would have had WWIII.
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How.... Nina.... uughhhhhh:
Well, your opinion is probably wrong, then. Maybe they just want the exact same thing you guys wanted when you made the aforementioned Monroe doctrine... When you fought so hard for independence? Just not to have their affairs meddled in constantly?
Again, HORRIBLY naive to think what Saddam sought, and fought for/after was independance. Once he stepped into the realm of conquest and exherting power your stnace no longer applies. Comparisons to his actions versus our actions in the Monroe Doctorine are completely retarded for the sheer fact it took no action offensively and stood only as a political/national defensive measure and had nothing to do with conquest or exherting power through war and suffering.
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How.... Nina.... uughhhhhh:
And that's the problem with this whole thing. Americans think they should blow stuff up, but the rest of the world increasingly disagrees. You people are losing the little international credibility you have, and you try to justify it by belittling France and other countries that disagree with you, or any UN decision, for that matter. There are some (not me... yet ) that say the U.S. is being downright imperialistic.
Again that is just bullshit, as SHOWN by the fact we took only diplomatic measures against these situations for SEVERAL decades, and they proved fruitless. In fact we are typically standoffish on MOST counts choosing NOT to get involved, until it is overly deemed nessesary, current events being the exception. As far as belitting France and others, we don't really have to try too hard, and a lot of that has to do with the fact we HAVE helped them quite a bit finacially and economically, whether they like to admit it or not, but when WE need help or aide or anything to that effect our policies and actions are immediately deemed unworthy, and transgressions are forgotten.
It is also quite a bit easier for nations and peoples not directly affected by these situations to deem them unwarranted. Especially the apathetic ones.
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Naimah had this to say about (_|_):
A what is this magical 'realistic plan' that the administration should have consulted you for? Personally, I say they are doing a pretty bang up job for having random people shooting you.
The magical 'realistic plan' would have included such things as:
- Creating a focus on preparing people for elections, and declaring that whatever governement would be elected would not be imposed under american rule.
- Not opening Iraq to free-reign foreign explotation, as it's horrible PR in Iraqian eyes.
- Focusing on getting good, well-protected infrastructure up as soon as possible. If the opposers attack it, use that as a PR ploy. The americans give you electricity, jobs and food. The opposers try to take the things away. Who will the population hate?
- Not torture prisoners. Make sure to have the untouchable moral high ground and then thumb my nose at people saying America are evil instead of giving them ammo. And no, the tortures were not six or seven sick people, because an isolated cell like that would have been impossible in the military. Several people must have known.
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It was a WMD thats pretty good evidence of it.
Uh, no. It was an artillery shell with a nerve gas that can be used to make a WMD. Artillery shells do not generally classify as weapons of mass destruction. A canister of nerve gas doesn't either, it's a biological weapon.
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Naimah probably says this to all the girls:
You would be hard pressed to find another country that had that many sticking points.Remember the dance the Iraqis were playing? They would stall forever and act incredibly suspicious. We would have visual reconisance then stuff would just disapear. Seemed resonable to me to suspect a little bit of foul play.
And you forgot that they were in violation of their agreement of the UN.
"A little bit of foul play" is not sufficient reason to go to war.
The U.S. has also been ruled in violation of UN law. Perhaps we should invade ourselves?
Interesting Logic. It sums up the dems view quite well..
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This one time, at Azizza camp:
So wait. A shell containing a warhead with Weapons of Mass destruction is not evidence that there are any WMDs there?Interesting Logic. It sums up the dems view quite well..
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He said the shell had been rigged as a makeshift bomb that resulted in a small dispersal of the agent when it exploded before an ordnance team could disarm it.
Such unparallelled mass destruction. 
And no, because there is a tree, doesn't mean there is a forest.
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Zaza probably says this to all the girls:
Uh, no. It was an artillery shell with a nerve gas that can be used to make a WMD. Artillery shells do not generally classify as weapons of mass destruction. A canister of nerve gas doesn't either, it's a biological weapon.
There are artillery shells that contain Nuclear warheads that both the US and Russia had in use at one time. I guess those are not WMDs either and should be used in a normal engagement.
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Azizza had this to say about the Spice Girls:
There are artillery shells that contain Nuclear warheads that both the US and Russia had in use at one time. I guess those are not WMDs either and should be used in a normal engagement.
I did not know that, and stand corrected then. But in this very specific case, the canister was quite small, and could do very limited damage, perhaps kill a couple hundred people. It was a biological weapon, which is a trap of its own. But a WMD? No.
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- Creating a focus on preparing people for elections, and declaring that whatever governement would be elected would not be imposed under american rule.
We have done that and are turning the government over to the Iraqis on June 1st I believe. Their interum government will then organize elections.
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- Not opening Iraq to free-reign foreign explotation, as it's horrible PR in Iraqian eyes.
So are we going to rely on the Iraqi industrial complex that is an international powerhouse? Or should we just require American companys to donate their services?
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- Focusing on getting good, well-protected infrastructure up as soon as possible. If the opposers attack it, use that as a PR ploy. The americans give you electricity, jobs and food. The opposers try to take the things away. Who will the population hate?
Hey, we rebuilt all the infrastructure that Sadam destroyed fairly quickly. Getting power back up as quickly as they did when there are ragheads shooting RPGs at you is pretty impressive.
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- Not torture prisoners. Make sure to have the untouchable moral high ground and then thumb my nose at people saying America are evil instead of giving them ammo. And no, the tortures were not six or seven sick people, because an isolated cell like that would have been impossible in the military. Several people must have known.
Apparently you don't believe in 'innocent until proven guilty.' Rumsfield did it and he should resign. Sounds like 'guilty until proven innocent.' Maybe that is only for US officals though. With Sadam you seem to be saying 'innocent when proven guilty.'
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Azizza had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Before the invasion people were saying that even one weapon would justify action. Now we have the weapon and those same people are crying that it is only one weapon. Amusing.
I see. Please quote where these "people" said that even one weapon would justify action.
And then explain how a small canister of nerve gas is a WMD.
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Zaza had this to say about (_|_):
I did not know that, and stand corrected then. But in this very specific case, the canister was quite small, and could do very limited damage, perhaps kill a couple hundred people. It was a biological weapon, which is a trap of its own. But a WMD? No.
Biological weapons and chemical weapons are WMD. A shell that size could have killed a lot of people if used properly and left many more decimated for life.
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ACES! Another post by Zaza:
I did not know that, and stand corrected then. But in this very specific case, the canister was quite small, and could do very limited damage, perhaps kill a couple hundred people. It was a biological weapon, which is a trap of its own. But a WMD? No.
Yea, it was a WMD. But it was a small one so it dosn't count. 
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It was a WMD thats pretty good evidence of it.
A single sarin shell that could have been brought in after the war doesn't really prove much, also it seemed to have been rather lacking in the 'mass destruction'-department.
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Again that is just bullshit, as SHOWN by the fact we took only diplomatic measures against these situations for SEVERAL decades, and they proved fruitless. In fact we are typically standoffish on MOST counts choosing NOT to get involved, until it is overly deemed nessesary, current events being the exception. As far as belitting France and others, we don't really have to try too hard, and a lot of that has to do with the fact we HAVE helped them quite a bit finacially and economically, whether they like to admit it or not, but when WE need help or aide or anything to that effect our policies and actions are immediately deemed unworthy, and transgressions are forgotten.
Like the time all of Europe refused to help you in Afghanistan? IIRC quite a few countries still have soldiers on the ground there.
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Nina had this to say about Tron:
Fuck this, Fae, I'm not going to bother arguing civilly since you keep calling me and my opinions retarded at every opportunity, rather than adressing my points.
I adressed them perfectly.
Point one you bring up Monroe, a defense DIPLOMATIC adress, and try to argue it as viably comparable to Saddam's actions and Iraqi policy, which just flat out doesn't hold up.
You try to appeal to to greed as being a sole reason for taking out a countries spiritual and political leaders, being a baseless point, and ignoring thier actions in general on humanity and through humane methods.
And then you tried to appeal to US thinking of Might makes Right, which although some sentiments of that exists, you ignore all policies and actions taken over a historical period of several decades and put on the plight of the little man for thier disagreements not being taken to heart.
And for the record you ENTERED this argument, and continued to POST in this argument full of sarcasm and with a very snide flavor. I never attacked you directly, nor would I, but I do feel any reason to reply in a sugar coated manner any more than you have.
