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Pyscho_Pike probably says this to all the girls:
Why the Fuck would I want him on my Head? Just toss him into a chipper or a combine or something.

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touche!

I laff!

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Sean Model 2000 was programmed to say:
I've been a member here since March 6th, 2001, and I haven't been banned yet.

Being ignored and grudgingly tolerated for three years does not make you accepted, Somthor.

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I've been here since October of 2000 and I've been banned about six times and I'm loved!

Being banned simply depends on Drysart's time of the month.

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We were all impressed when Lyinar Ka`Bael wrote:
This is what I mean, though. This requirement is happening because people refuse to learn the language of the country they are coming to, and instead force us to have to cater to them and learn their language. I'm sorry. That's not right. We speak English in America. My German and French ancestors, when they came here, had to learn the language to fit in. I don't speak German or French fluently right now because somewhere down the line, they had to communicate with those around them, and so knowing English passed on down the line. Why should it be any different for people who can't be bothered to even come into the country legally and try to abide by our laws?

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Please get the idea that America has a "language" out of your head. We have a lingua franca, but that's the most English exerts its power over America. An interlingual language. America is not one nation of many peoples, but many nations of one peoples. It's the similarity in mind-sets, idealisms, and goals that brought Americans to America. It was not language, culture, or location.

Your appeal to tradition makes about as much sense as saying "When Africans came to the country, they were enslaved. Ergo, it shouldn't be any different for Africans coming to the country now. It just doesn't follow.

I can understand anger about losing a "native language" to immigration - as often happened in America. The Gypsy/Hungarian part of my family loathed the fact that they were Hungarian three generations back, so my grandmother never spoke Hungarian - she wasn't allowed to. She knew how to, but she never did - even when my dad was being raised. So we lost the language there. I'm rather frustrated by this. I'm not sure if you feel the same way, but it seems like there was a little resentment in your post - my apologies if I wrote inbetween the lines.

However, I digress. First off, I agree that it's not right to force someone to learn a language they do not want to (by way of government policy, not something like the Universities requiring three years of foreign language in high school). However, that goes both ways; just as no culture should impose their language on the US, the US should impose no language on any culture living here. Further, the reason we're "catering" to the Spanish-only speakers is because of Capitalism. Simple matters of money, there's nothing political, forceful, or snivelingly-liberal about it at all.

Whatever-point-I'm-on-more, it seems you have this notion that in order to communicate with the majority, the minority must give up its language. Loss of a native language usually only happens with bilingual children who feel a greater desire to be similar to the kids at their school who don't speak different languages, and have parents slack enough to allow them to "drop" their native language (by simply ceasing to speak it, even while still retaining the knowledge of how to). Or, conversely, parents that are opposed to being seen as "foreign" - something that often isn't worried about anymore since America's started to discover its identity as a nation.

Finally, one idealistic tangent. It should be the job, and moreover a badge, of the affluent to have a plethora of languages under their belt. Minorly for the ability to gain a minor bit of insight on cultures, but majorly for the ability to communicate natively with a larger number of peoples. While a goal everyone can, and should, aspire to, it is most readily available to the affluent.

That last bit, however, is nothing more than idealist rhetoric. . . and should only be considered as parsley on a plate - nothing to be digested.

Err. . . I actually meant to PM this - as much as I despise having a "closed" debate. This thread isn't exactly the most favorable enviroment to have a polite, thought-out debate - as thought out as I can be on the day before AP Bio Finals.

[ 01-22-2004: Message edited by: Vorbis ]

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Vorbis wrote this stupid crap:
Finally, one idealistic tangent. It should be the job, and moreover a badge, of the affluent to have a plethora of languages under their belt. Minorly for the ability to gain a minor bit of insight on cultures, but majorly for the ability to communicate natively with a larger number of peoples. While a goal everyone can, and should, aspire to, it is most readily available to the affluent.

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That's an interesting idea - multilinguality being a badge of the affluent. Particularly it makes me think of Star Wars and those scenes in which there are some humans speaking Basic and a bunch of aliens speaking alien language (in some cases, like Greedo or Chewy, because they're not physically capable of speaking Basic) and everyone understands each other. I always thought that was pretty cool.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Actually there are no resentment. Nothing is stopping me from going out and learning to be fluent in German or French, and I don't regret losing the ability to speak those languages fluenty in order to live here. Nor does coming to America necessarily constitute losing your other culture. You can retain your native language, and your cultures, and still assimilate yourself to American culture by learning the predominant language. My problem is with those who want their own culture, and make absolutely no effort when they come to another country where the majority speak another language, to learn to communicate in that other language, those forcing those of us already here to have to learn *their* language. I disagree with that. Which is why I think the stipulation should be made with Bush's plan that they have to have a reasonable grasp of the language we speak in the majority here in America, English, or they will not benefit from the exceptions being made.

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According to you, how are they imposing another language onto us?

Honestly, I can't go to France or Germany or Japan and not try to communicate in the manner that is acceptable and commonplace there. My parents lived in Germany when my dad was in the military, and outside of the military base they were pretty lost, because they didn't speak German. Granted, they didn't go there on their own, but it was the army, so they didn't really have a chance to speak it first, and they both picked up some while they were there. But they had a rougher time because German was the language that was spoken and they didn't speak it, and nobody catered to them about English, except near the base.

Of course, I can't blow a bubble with bubble gum, or even wistle either. I just ... can't. (With one strange exception.)

Naturally, I've forgotten it all by now.

Christmas is over!!! Even Epiphany came and went 2-1/2 weeks ago!

Unless you're just trying to hold out until Christmas in July or Christmas 2004?

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There was much rejoicing when Lyinar Ka`Bael said this:
They're not using the tools that are provided to enable them to communicate with us in the language that is already established. There are many places one can go to learn English as a second language, even as far north as here in Indiana, and I imagine moreso in the southern states. But illegal aliens will come to the US and refuse to take advantage of these opportunities. So as you put it, capitalism will bend and force us to have to change our way of life and adopt another language just to communicate with them.

Honestly, I can't go to France or Germany or Japan and not try to communicate in the manner that is acceptable and commonplace there. My parents lived in Germany when my dad was in the military, and outside of the military base they were pretty lost, because they didn't speak German. Granted, they didn't go there on their own, but it was the army, so they didn't really have a chance to speak it first, and they both picked up some while they were there. But they had a rougher time because German was the language that was spoken and they didn't speak it, and nobody catered to them about English, except near the base.

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What's funny is that most OTHER countries usually (But not always) teach english as the "main" high school language. Like Spanish/french is to americans. Most Japanese (Thanks to their intense school system.. christ, dunno how those kids DO that) know at least enough english to get by (Where's the bathroom, how much is this, etc), if not more.

Go go american laziness, I guess.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
They're not using the tools that are provided to enable them to communicate with us in the language that is already established. There are many places one can go to learn English as a second language, even as far north as here in Indiana, and I imagine moreso in the southern states. But illegal aliens will come to the US and refuse to take advantage of these opportunities. So as you put it, capitalism will bend and force us to have to change our way of life and adopt another language just to communicate with them.

Honestly, I can't go to France or Germany or Japan and not try to communicate in the manner that is acceptable and commonplace there. My parents lived in Germany when my dad was in the military, and outside of the military base they were pretty lost, because they didn't speak German. Granted, they didn't go there on their own, but it was the army, so they didn't really have a chance to speak it first, and they both picked up some while they were there. But they had a rougher time because German was the language that was spoken and they didn't speak it, and nobody catered to them about English, except near the base.

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Once again, affluence. If you barely have enough money to get across and set up in America (let's, for the sake of simplicity, say we're talking about legal immigrants) - you'd be hardpressed to add the costs of an english tutor, or the tuition for you and possibly your family to attend ESL classes.

I know you've had some hard financial times, so imagine you're back in the worst of all that. Now, transplant yourself in Germany or some other foreign locale where the language evades you. Further, take into account that you've just moved. Simply trying to find the classes would be daunting in and of itself alone, but add on to that the cost and it becomes something that just has to wait until everything's settled down a bit more.

But when you're given an enviroment that allows you to communicate with a fair amount of people in your native tongue, suddenly other pleasures become more important than learning the useful lingua franca. Not to mention you lose the ability to learn through total immersion when you have anyone to converse with in your native tongue.

It's most likely not done out of distaste for the language, or in any malicious way. Rather, it's just done because it's not something that's absolutely needed and falls victim to want and desire. Sure, having it would make things a ton easier - but if you hold that against this fictional immigrant family, hold it most English-native Americans as well for not learning another major language.

I'm still having difficulty understanding why you believe that the people who have chosen to cater to non-English speakers have done so under duress or were otherwise forced into doing so. Moreover, I'm still not seeing how it's a bad thing to be more supportive of another language - especially considering it's a tongue (if not the tongue) of a fair amount of Americans.

So if you could help explain it to me a bit clearer so I don't have to presume your motives, that'd be wonderful. It'd also help me understand where you're coming from a bit better. Danke.

~~~

Vernaltemptress, können Sie jetzt etwas Deutsch? Oder haben sie nur Amerikanisch sprechen sein?

[ 01-23-2004: Message edited by: Vorbis ]

But I kinda agree with Lyinar on this. Though I do not begrudge them the right to keep their native language, in order to get by in the US, they should learn English, or at least enough to be able to perform essential functions like getting a driver's license, working with native-born Americans, etc.

While commercialism has now required us to have Spanish-speaking services for the hundreds of thousands of Mexican immigrants, it is deplorable that it has gotten this far. Yet there are those who have adapted, so they're not all lazy. I worked over the summer with another temp named Edrian, who though born in Mexico, now 25, knows perfect English. So does his parents. It can be done, and should be done.

How do you enforce this requirement for people with low-to-no income? How do you enforce this requirement for illegal immigrants? And is capitalism and the business community too strong to allow this requirement?

Having a language requirement for citizenship seems too harsh to me, though it would certainly prepare people for life here if they had to learn English beforehand. Don't think such a restriction should be put into place though, would be impossible to enforce on the people who would need to be blocked most, and keep out, or slow down the immigration of those who shouldn't be blocked.

Capitalism will likely keep multi-lingual services available, which they should. All I was saying earlier is that its prevalence is due to a great deal of hispanic immigrants, though there are now services for other languages as well. Until they can learn English, these services are invaluable, and should stay. Nothing wrong with them.

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Vernaltemptress Model 2000 was programmed to say:
So should the government require immigrants to pass an English class for citizenship and/or residency, like the Germans do?

How do you enforce this requirement for people with low-to-no income? How do you enforce this requirement for illegal immigrants? And is capitalism and the business community too strong to allow this requirement?

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I thought they already did, you had to speak english write it and know a bit of our history and how our government works @ the 6th grade level. maybe I'm wrong or they did away with all that

On Naturalization Proceedings:

The examiner asks the applicant some questions about the U.S. system of government and U.S. history to see if the applicant has basic knowledge of these subjects. The applicant does not have to be able to read or write English to pass this part of the examination.

The examiner also will test the applicant’s English reading and writing skills by giving a simple dictation test. The applicant also will be asked to sign his/her name in English. Two types of applicants do not have to take the English literacy examination. These are applicants who are:

Physically unable to read or write, or
50 years old or more and have lived in the U.S. (as a permanent legal resident) for 20 years or more

On the other hand:

In Germany, you have to have a diploma/certificate stating that you've taken courses in the German language. These courses can be any where from an 8-week intensive to 1 year and is about the equivalent of 3-4 semesters of a foreign language.

[ 01-23-2004: Message edited by: Vernaltemptress ]

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Verily, Vernaltemptress doth proclaim:
Lyinar, please, change your sigpics!!

Christmas is over!!! Even Epiphany came and went 2-1/2 weeks ago!

Unless you're just trying to hold out until Christmas in July or Christmas 2004?

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I'm too tired to read the replies cept this one. Just read a 218 page book in 4 hours, in one sitting, cause I couldn't put it down. Was an Arabian Nights retelling called The Storyteller's Daughter. Great book. Glad I finally got my hands on it.

And someone wanna tell Vernal how long I had that pic up the last time? Hehe