quote:

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Mog wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
but your forgeting that while your acepted by pretty much everyone at ec as a normal poster, bluemage is forever dammed for pretty much no reason at all other then some stupid drama like 2 years ago that every post or thread she makes be proceeded by "OMG ROOFLES CANADIANGOTH LOSER SQUAD" or some such (even if in this case it was done all stealthy, if it was 90% of the regular posters asking for tarot definations, i can allmost garentee this wouldnt have happened)

poeple seriously gotta move on and stop the hate

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I wouldn't say I'm accepted.

And I'm quite sure that if I had made a post "Hey guys! Can I get a link for tarot deffinitions, please!" and not tagged the "Because I wanna draw an EC tarot deck!" I would have gotten much the same responces. INCLUEDING the ever so loved "www.google.com" replies...

I'm quite sure if any "accepted" person asked, they would have gotten the same responces.

But I do agree on one thing. We gotta lose the hate and move on. (and yes, I said we)

quote:

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Aarchangel startled the peaceful upland Gorillas by blurting:
This is to much fun to just leave Ignore.

Is there Majik in the world? I think yes, Can I prove it to you? No, nor do I even want to try. People of closed minds knock anything that they can not personally prove, relate to, or accept, they are so set in their ways they are afraid to allow an iota of something new into their life.

You can tell me whatever you want about Druidism Wicca and Majik in general, I believe, that is enuff for me, and that is enuff for others.

There is no religion that can be "scientifically proven" to be true or false. I have had to many arguments with Fundies telling me to prove that there is majik in the world, shoe mw point to it, I ask them to do the same with their god and they say "Look around you that is proof enuff" I tell them, "And that is my answer as well"

Point is no one knows. Tarot, Runes, I-Ching, The Bible, Wija Boards, they all hold something for those who use and have some faith that they will find what they seek within it. You can not prove it, but just know for your self that it is true.

So please stop trying to dismiss something that you may not believe in, understand or accept and bullshit or fake, and I wont tell you taht your beliefs are wrong, just agree to disagree and get along peacefully. To many wars have been started over religion, there is no need to further the hatred with petty shit as i have seen above, and other places

For those who want to learn more about Wicca send me a shout, Aarchangel_1772 on either MSN or Yahoo. Ecclectic Wiccan of the last 20 years, i may not have the answers but i wont dismiss what you think as crap.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame fest

---

I call shenanigans bullshit.

Tarot is fake. Astrology is bullshit. Magic isn't real. I Ching is baseless. Et cetera.

I could give a flying fuck what you believe but I don't but don't spew that crap about something having validity just because some gullible moron believes in it. Belief doesn't make a thing so.

Nor does employing one's brain intelligently make one closed-minded. Jeebus. If someone wants to believe in something quietly, if they need to believe in something more powerful than themselves as sop to something they lack internally, they can go right ahead, but anyone alleging the existence of magic, psychic powers, ghosts, or anything else supernatural should be required to furnish proof or STFU. Believe if you will, but that doesn't make it so.

Karnaj, as usual, has the right of it: the burden of proof is always upon the positive assertion.

Do you have any idea how annoying all this crap about not challenging utter bullshit just because someone's feelings might be hurt, or conflict might ensue, really is? If you truly, deeply believe in such absurd notions, seek help. . .but don't preach the Word of the Smurf just to have an excuse not to defend the indefensible. Further, lay off the, "Y t eh h8?" crap: just because someone with functional brain cells challenges the absurd doesn't mean there's hatred involved.

{edit: tpyo}

[ 09-13-2003: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

quote:

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Bloodsage was all like:

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Smurfville has to die btw.

That is all.

Oh, yeah and Jess, I agree with someone's earlier post, since there are many decks, there are many definitions behind them. What deck were you looking into? I want the Aurthorian (I think that's the spelling) cause they are sooo gorgeous. ^.^ Beautiful artwork on many high quality tarots.

quote:

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Quoth Ares:
People are entitled to their beliefs, no matter if you agree with it or not.

That is all.

Oh, yeah and Jess, I agree with someone's earlier post, since there are many decks, there are many definitions behind them. What deck were you looking into? I want the Aurthorian (I think that's the spelling) cause they are sooo gorgeous. ^.^ Beautiful artwork on many high quality tarots.

---

People can believe stupid shit all they want. As long as they don't try to claim something is real just because they believe in it. Not magic, or ghosts, nor mechs, nor anything else, thanks. Reality requires proof, k luv u bye.

{edit: onos! grammar error!}

[ 09-13-2003: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

quote:

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Bloodsage had this to say about Duck Tales:
People can believe stupid shit all they want. As long as they don't try to claim something is real just because they believe in it. Not magic, or ghosts, or mechs, or anything else, thanks. Reality requires proof, k luv u bye.

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DOes that include the mainstream, like belief in God?

quote:

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There was much rejoicing when Zair said this:
DOes that include the mainstream, like belief in God?

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Sure, agnosticism.

quote:

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A sleep deprived Zair stammered:
DOes that include the mainstream, like belief in God?

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Unfortunately god has a big lobby.

quote:

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Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Zair absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
DOes that include the mainstream, like belief in God?

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Of course.

But most of those have given up trying to prove their beliefs. Which is fine: if people want to believe in divinity, and need an external code of conduct, that's fine.

The magic/psychic/ghost/astrology True Believers, on the other hand, often insist their beliefs are facts, which is bullshit.

quote:

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BlueMage's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Can anyone give me a site that list the definitions of the minor acrana and other tarot cards.. Ive tried msn.ca and about two other search engines with no relative results..

Much thanks to any help..

~maki

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See sage, thats the problem here. BlueMage didn't assert that they were real or fake, she simply asked for definitions of the cards. Now, if you werent talking about her, thats cool.

But she didn't assert that they were real, she just asked for definitions of cards. The VERY FIRST POST was someone blasting her for it, by telling her they were fake, when she never said they were real. She never tried to push her beliefs on anyone, and never asked for a discussion on the reality or lack thereof. There was no need to bash the "OMG THEY ARE FAKE" thing into her head.

But Tarot cards ARE real things with REAL definitions. Its just that those definitions are dependent on you believing in them or not.

[ 09-13-2003: Message edited by: Falaanla Marr ]

quote:

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This one time, at Bloodsage camp:
Y h8?

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aelllll we eare saeying, si giev me a pieta!111

quote:

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Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Falaanla Marr absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
See sage, thats the problem here. BlueMage didn't assert that they were real or fake, she simply asked for definitions of the cards. Now, if you werent talking about her, thats cool.

But she didn't assert that they were real, she just asked for definitions of cards. The VERY FIRST POST was someone blasting her for it, by telling her they were fake, when she never said they were real. She never tried to push her beliefs on anyone, and never asked for a discussion on the reality or lack thereof. There was no need to bash the "OMG THEY ARE FAKE" thing into her head.

But Tarot cards ARE real things with REAL definitions. Its just that those definitions are dependent on you believing in them or not.

---

Not to be a stickler for details, or anything, but who did I quote when making my post?!

quote:

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Bloodsage Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Not to be a stickler for details, or anything, but who did I quote when making my post?!

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Half the time I quote people but only target what they say with the first paragraph. So, i thought that may have been how it was. Sorry.

Cookie?

quote:

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ACES! Another post by Bloodsage:
People can believe stupid shit all they want. As long as they don't try to claim something is real just because they believe in it. Not magic, or ghosts, nor mechs, nor anything else, thanks. Reality requires proof, k luv u bye.

---

quote:

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Bloodsage's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
But most of those have given up trying to prove their beliefs. Which is fine: if people want to believe in divinity, and need an external code of conduct, that's fine.

The magic/psychic/ghost/astrology True Believers, on the other hand, often insist their beliefs are facts, which is bullshit.

---

=+=

quote:

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Now, for Aarchangel's post - edited for emphasis:
Is there Majik in the world? I think yes, Can I prove it to you? No, nor do I even want to try.

You can tell me whatever you want about Druidism Wicca and Majik in general, I believe, that is enuff for me, and that is enuff for others.

There is no religion that can be "scientifically proven" to be true or false. I have had to many arguments with Fundies telling me to prove that there is majik in the world, shoe mw point to it, I ask them to do the same with their god and they say "Look around you that is proof enuff" I tell them, "And that is my answer as well"

Point is no one knows. You can not prove it, but just know for your self that it is true [In other words, faith].

---

=+=

Where was he claiming what you said he claimed, anyway? With what you said in your posts, I figured he would've slipped through your loophole for people believing things without proof.

*Shrug.* In any case, he really needs to learn how to spell "enough."

quote:

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Callalron said this about your mom:
That'd make me want to put a gunbarrel in my mouth.

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So they do work!

quote:

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Falaanla Marr startled the peaceful upland Gorillas by blurting:
Half the time I quote people but only target what they say with the first paragraph. So, i thought that may have been how it was. Sorry.

Cookie?

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Sure!

I usually quote the person to whom I'm replying, and I try to use an appropriate tag. I'm odd that way, I guess.

Nice way to play with the quotation to create a seeming inconsistency. You'd do well in journalism. For The Enquirer.

Notice that I take issue with the bullshit that claims practical value: tarot, magic, I Ching, psychics, etc. If someone wants to be a Wiccan, more power to them and their little rites--just like the Catholics and their ritual cannibalism.

Magic does not exist, however. And most psychic "powers"--tarot, seances, mind reading, whatever--rely more on cold reading than on anything supernatural.

Further, I take issue with the bullshit notion that disagreeing with idiocy is hatred. Sorry, but the ever-popular "if someone believes a thing, it's true for them and we should accept that" is simply sloppy thinking, and deserves ridicule wherever found.

If you'll remember, I say the same thing to the religious who claim they've proof there's a god. The late, unlamented Kanid being the most intransigent of those.

I don't care what people believe. But if they try to defend something as true, they'd better be prepared to prove it.

Therefore, they are fake, and Bloodsage is a Terminator.

quote:

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Bloodsage screamed this from the crapper:
Up and at them!

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Up and...wow, the RQG nailed that one.

Anyway: "Up and 'atom!'"

Go, go Karnaj!

quote:

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Bloodsage had this to say about John Romero:
Drak,

Nice way to play with the quotation to create a seeming inconsistency. You'd do well in journalism. For The Enquirer.

Notice that I take issue with the bullshit that claims practical value: tarot, magic, I Ching, psychics, etc. If someone wants to be a Wiccan, more power to them and their little rites--just like the Catholics and their ritual cannibalism.

Magic does not exist, however. And most psychic "powers"--tarot, seances, mind reading, whatever--rely more on cold reading than on anything supernatural.

Further, I take issue with the bullshit notion that disagreeing with idiocy is hatred. Sorry, but the ever-popular "if someone believes a thing, it's true for them and we should accept that" is simply sloppy thinking, and deserves ridicule wherever found.

If you'll remember, I say the same thing to the religious who claim they've proof there's a god. The late, unlamented Kanid being the most intransigent of those.

I don't care what people believe. But if they try to defend something as true, they'd better be prepared to prove it.

---

Well, I'd imagine that you're imagining his statement of tarot having practical value - since I don't see it anywhere in his posts. At all. He just says he believes in it. I have in fact never met anyone who believed in Tarot, who also believed in anything but its ability to create a good way to analyze peoples' emotions and opinions. Even with the "future-reading" card-positions, the people who I know and the few random readings I've had done on me to determine how much of a charlatan act it is... have stated it as a suggestive course for how to handle current events instead of as a method of discovering things to come.

I agree with you fully that it is essentially a variant of suggestion-response psychology. Given a generalized input, you assign it your own meanings due to your own situation and come out with something that actually has meaning to you. But... I've only met one person who truly thought it worked any way other than that, and - frankly - she was somewhat nuts. She thought trickster elves stole her socks. So maybe I'm missing something because I don't practice it, but I was under the impression that it isn't supposed to work any other way. Maybe Aarchangel or someone can let you know if it is supposed to work in some spiritual way, but I was under the impression that even the people who follow it view it as a good therapeutic way to rummage through their subconscious thought.

I can't give a better explanation until I know more about it, but I still can't see how the general practicioners can believe in it as being something other than a nice way to be introspective. So, I might be wrong, and if I am I apologize, but it seems to me that it does seem to work in the way they think it does. Since they don't expect it to do any other things than what it, being what it is, can actually do, it works for them. *Shrug.* Could be wrong though. If it actually is treated differently, and anyone is a practicioner here, I'd be glad to be enlightened as to how it's actually believed to work.

quote:

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Bloodsage screamed this from the crapper:
And here I was worried that the leap from Terminator to Arnold to Ranier to the quote would be too obscure!

Go, go Karnaj!

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Danke. I'm odd like that. I once called someone on a quote from the movie "The Negotiator" while we were playing Halo. Almost nothing gets under my radar; I'm really a pop culture junkie, I suppose.

So. . .a deck of cards, and the random flipping thereof, is supposed to have meaning, connection with reality? Jesus, did you even read Gik's crap about how the tarot deck supposedly helped her friend to realize hanging out with a drug dealer was bad news?

/boggle

Sorry, but if you need a phallic symbol painted on a card to tell you not to hang out with drug-dealing scum, then you've got other, bigger issues nice men in white coats would be glad to help with in a cozy padded room.

As a matter of fact, that example is a perfect illustration of the silliness inherent in such systems. The words, as yours, seem to say one thing--"it's only an aid to meditation"--but the actions--"look how the deck magically pinpointed the boyfriend as trouble"--tell a different, mystical story.

Sorry, but it's a load of crap.

[ 09-13-2003: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

Sorry Gikk. I don't mean to blast your friend, but it really is a rather... obviously bad situation to be in.

quote:

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Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Drakkenmaw absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
Well, no argument there. I'd agree with your analysis on that point completely. But I can't see the majority of the people who use the cards working like that. Maybe I'm assuming that people in general are more able to reach common sense decisions, or something. There could be several given psychological reasons as to why it took an outside suggestion to motivate that sort of action, but none of them explain the lack of rationality needed to require that in the first place.

Sorry Gikk. I don't mean to blast your friend, but it really is a rather... obviously bad situation to be in.

---

Perhaps we're arguing the same thing, then.

I don't even disagree with meditation--even with a focus--in general. But when people start looking at cards, or the stars, or whatever to reveal important facets of their lives, I draw the line between useful introspection and silly hokum.

But most of my friends who actually USE the things say it works this way too, so I think that most people who use them generally use them like that. I may be wrong, but I thought that most people nowadays don't consider them to be actually mystical any more than most Christians consider the Eucharist to be the actual body of a dead person. Ritual has value as ritual, and all that.

I can't see how people can view it otherwise, and hence why I asked. Anyone here know?

(P.S. - Is this the first time we've agreed on something?)

"The other night I was playing poker with my friends, but the only cards we had were a deck of tarot cards. I got a full house and three people died."

quote:

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Callalron impressed everyone with:
Best quote ever about tarot cards comes frmo Steven Wright:

"The other night I was playing poker with my friends, but the only cards we had were a deck of tarot cards. I got a full house and three people died."

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ROFL

That's a game I'd love to be in...

Note: if you can understand what I wrote then huzzah to you... and heres a cookie

quote:

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BlueMage's mother was good last night.
did expect it to expand into such a descusion as it has become.

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This is Evercrest.

quote:

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A sleep deprived Ace in the Spade stammered:
Now the funny thing about what Bloodsage has said on farther up the page. Is that according to some parts of Quantum Theory, Taort and just about anything else you believe/predict/do can happen. Granted it happens in an alternate reality but whose to say your alter self wont benefit from such sage advice in their world where Tarot works. Its like w/ gravity. Just because you drop something four feet off the eart doesn't mean its going to hit the ground the next time you drop it. Granted the probability is quite high that it will happen due to number of times it has happened and all, but theres the chance. Thats why you can't prove things. And goign back to the other thread on religion thats where suspension of disbelief does occur. You assume that it will fall down. Otherwise you believe it will fall down, even though you know it could happen one day where it falls up. Enjoy.

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Probability states that anything with the slightest chance of happening CAN happen. So yes, you could somehow manage to hit a run of probability where Tarot cards were incredibly accurate and predicted all the important events in your life.

But then again, you could also hit a run in probability where a freak convergence of body heat causes all the methane in your intestines to combust when you sit down to read the cards. And you wouldn't be blaming Tarot for making your ass explode.

Probability covers freak occurrences, not actual phenomena. You can believe in it, but this is not a reason to.

quote:

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Ace in the Spade had this to say about (_|_):
I think you missed what I was saying when you saw probability. Ignore that. In quantum theory you can have something, like Tarot cards effect an iffinite number of realities, so due to probability one of those realities will be effected in a positive manner. Now in some huge astronomically big chance you happen to end up in that reality where Tarot cards work positively for you then hey, congrats. Im not saying to make an entire system of belief out of them and use them to determine the path of your life. But they could be right. And how do you know they don't? And then the same is true for negative effects with Tarot. However heres the part thats wrong. Due to the high number of chance needed for this to happen, you figure hey, it wont effect me. This is your belief system, that tarot doesn't effect you. But isnt that the same falacy as believing that it will? And thats why we should all play nice and respect what people believe, wether they be divine god, or omnipotent 1.99 deck of cards w/ funky pictures.

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...

Do you actually believe that?

quote:

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Ace in the Spade startled the peaceful upland Gorillas by blurting:
I think you missed what I was saying when you saw probability. Ignore that. In quantum theory you can have something, like Tarot cards effect an iffinite number of realities, so due to probability one of those realities will be effected in a positive manner. Now in some huge astronomically big chance you happen to end up in that reality where Tarot cards work positively for you then hey, congrats. Im not saying to make an entire system of belief out of them and use them to determine the path of your life. But they could be right. And how do you know they don't? And then the same is true for negative effects with Tarot. However heres the part thats wrong. Due to the high number of chance needed for this to happen, you figure hey, it wont effect me. This is your belief system, that tarot doesn't effect you. But isnt that the same falacy as believing that it will? And thats why we should all play nice and respect what people believe, wether they be divine god, or omnipotent 1.99 deck of cards w/ funky pictures.

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You seem to know almost as little of philosophy as you do physics. I suggest you read Gell-Mann's The Quark and the Jaguar as a primer before you put your foot in your mouth regarding quantum theory.

Jeebus.

By your logic, it's perfectly intelligent to invest one's complete paycheck in playing the lottery. . .routinely. Hey, it could happen, so if I believe it will I'm golden. No matter the odds are several hundred million to one against. Nah. Anyone who calls that sort of belief system silly is just closed-minded. And doesn't understand quantum mechanics. Or fluid dynamics. Or thermobaric weapons. Or something.

See Drak's other thread. The monkeys could, indeed, type Shakespeare. But they don't. So it's stupid to base your beliefs around, "Hey, it could happen!"

quote:

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Where's Waisz? had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
...

Do you actually believe that?

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Yes, yes I do. Because Im feeling lucky and thats means I could be an all powerful cookie monster who will subjugate you in the near future. SO deal.

quote:

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Ace in the Spade attempted to be funny by writing:
I think you missed what I was saying when you saw probability. Ignore that. In quantum theory you can have something, like Tarot cards effect an iffinite number of realities, so due to probability one of those realities will be effected in a positive manner. Now in some huge astronomically big chance you happen to end up in that reality where Tarot cards work positively for you then hey, congrats. Im not saying to make an entire system of belief out of them and use them to determine the path of your life. But they could be right. And how do you know they don't? And then the same is true for negative effects with Tarot. However heres the part thats wrong. Due to the high number of chance needed for this to happen, you figure hey, it wont effect me. This is your belief system, that tarot doesn't effect you. But isnt that the same falacy as believing that it will? And thats why we should all play nice and respect what people believe, wether they be divine god, or omnipotent 1.99 deck of cards w/ funky pictures.

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*Sigh.* Quantum theory is probability. Moreover, it is probability in application to sub-atomic particles. The probability that quantum mechanics will come into play in determining the active nature of individual events within our visual range of perception is so astronomical, it's actually simpler and more likely to go with all the right cards being drawn at all the right times, from birth until death.

And as for that other stuff, I believe that it is entirely possible that any religion COULD be right. It could be possible that Tarot cards are actually moved by unseen spirits to advise people upon future events in their lives, as the sock-elf lady said. But that is entirely a philosophical belief, and it has nothing to do with science at all. Which is the way religion is. The moment you try to bring in a scientific proof for things is the moment my little internal scientist screams in pain and goes "KILL!"

Science deals with probability every day. That's why things are theories, and not laws anymore. But science also deals with repetition in results, not with individual events. Which means that, for the most part, probability and quantum theory have nothing to do with actual human-eye-scale events.

Don't go dragging science into religion. It's not like peanut butter and chocolate. They don't go better together.