quote:
Check out the big brain on Azizza!
Excuse me? If you see a flaw in my argument feel free to point it out. No one has invalidated anything I have said yet.
Actually, saying that someone has their foot in their mouth means they've managed to insult a lot of people...which you've done here. Perhaps if you were as smart as you think you are, you'd know that. I wasn't arguing any points with you.
-Tok
quote:
Azizza spewed forth this undeniable truth:
No one has invalidated anything I have said yet.
Did you not say that this was basic economics? In High School, a requirement to graduate was to take an economics course.
By this logic, everyone who has completed this course should be qualified to argue this point.
There's the credentials I'll allow YOU, asshead.
quote:
Azizza had this to say about Robocop:
Hosting a web site means Jack shit.
*BZZT!*
People generally don't have their very own servers for their websites. Some do, but many don't. So, they use web hosting services, and put it on someone else's server... For a price.
Y'see, web sites take up this thing called "bandwidth". Whenever the server needs to give people the web site, that's bandwidth being taken up right there. Lots of people, lots of bandwidth. Guess who has to pay for all this bandwidth being taken? The owner of the server.
Now, if he's hosting someone else's site for a price, what he does is he checks the bandwidth being used by that site, and charges the owner of the site for it.
While, yeah, there are free hosting services, the only difference is that you don't pay for the bandwidth you use.
Now, if people have to pay for bandwidth, they'll probably have some idea of what bandwidth costs, right? Right.
So, yeah, hosting web sites does mean something.
quote:
Azizza wrote this stupid crap:
Hosting a web site means Jack shit. And Tech Savvy does not mean you know a damn thing about the industry. I am not just talking about working on computers. I am talking about Dev, Finance, etc. There is a lot more to it than being tech savvy. And frankly if they know that bandwith isn't cheap they should not be bitching about a minor price increase from a company trying to cover that cost.
True, but you can't say that the only people who are allowed to comment are those who have spent time working for MMORPG company. Being a guide or whatever the UO equivalent you were does not mean you know anything about the technology that's put in place to make these things run. It's a stretch, but I'm guess you know very little about the "big picture" because if you really knew enough about the kind of communications equipment that a MMORPG requires you'd be filthy rich doing comm work for a Fortune 100 company somewhere.
I'm lucky enough to work with some guys who did communications at the Pentagon before they went back to civilian work and they happen to think I have enough smarts that they trust me to teach me things from time to time. Offhand, I would say that it's possible I know more about communications than you do...but I really don't know what kind of experience you have.
What's the biggest network you've been on where you've been allowed to have access to all communications equipment: All routers, managed switches, etc? I'd like to know. If you're really as knowledgable as you say you are, I'm man enough to admit you beat me...but unless you can tell me you've had some experience managing a WAN that spans the entire state of Texas...I don't think I'll be very impressed.
Thanks,
-Tok
You know there is nothing bigger then Texas.
quote:
Toktuk enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Being a guide or whatever the UO equivalent you were does not mean you know anything about the technology that's put in place to make these things run.
And to push that even further, that includes most GMs, since they are the head of customer service and provide strictly in-game support. They don't know about the servers, just ask one of them why or ETA of a server during unpredicted downtime... You'll end up with as many answers as there are GMs, those that can answer.
And, by your own terms, "Hosting a web site means Jack shit." So Drysart wouldn't know anything! [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: Tier ]
But anyway, back to the point.
For the extra cash they're demanding, cause face it, they are demanding it, they'd better get cracking on putting in the content we paid to have put in all that is still missing, like, within the first few months(3-4) of this new payment plan. Or there aren't gonna be alot of happy subscribers. [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: Skaw ]
I'm willing to pay the extra.
I will pay the extra.
For me, it's all as simple as that. 
quote:
Tier had this to say about Knight Rider:
And Pesco, who works in online development.And Tier, who pays for a host for a message board alone.
And Toktuk, linux freak, who knows a lot about hosting.
And Mad Cat, the guy who isn't here anymore, who hosts a pr0n site.
And about every tech-savvy EverCrester, who knows from this very message board that bandwidth isn't cheap.
BUT ALL OUR KNOWLEDGE IS NIL, ONLY MINDLESS BITCHING, BECAUSE AZZIZA IS SUPERIOR.
And Blindy, who programed a QUAKE 3 MOD FOR FUN
quote:
This one time, at Palador ChibiDragon camp:
I don't play EQ much, but I do play it. I tend to enjoy it when I play (if I'm not enjoying it, I stop).I'm willing to pay the extra.
I will pay the extra.
For me, it's all as simple as that.
-Tok
quote:
Toktuk had this to say about John Romero:
True, but you can't say that the only people who are allowed to comment are those who have spent time working for MMORPG company. Being a guide or whatever the UO equivalent you were does not mean you know anything about the technology that's put in place to make these things run. It's a stretch, but I'm guess you know very little about the "big picture" because if you really knew enough about the kind of communications equipment that a MMORPG requires you'd be filthy rich doing comm work for a Fortune 100 company somewhere.I'm lucky enough to work with some guys who did communications at the Pentagon before they went back to civilian work and they happen to think I have enough smarts that they trust me to teach me things from time to time. Offhand, I would say that it's possible I know more about communications than you do...but I really don't know what kind of experience you have.
What's the biggest network you've been on where you've been allowed to have access to all communications equipment: All routers, managed switches, etc? I'd like to know. If you're really as knowledgable as you say you are, I'm man enough to admit you beat me...but unless you can tell me you've had some experience managing a WAN that spans the entire state of Texas...I don't think I'll be very impressed.
Thanks,
-Tok
Maybe you do have more knowlege maybe you don't. Frankly it isn't worthy argueing about. I have enough knowlege to run the IT department at my company Nothing like the size you mentioned. Only four locations across two states (very close physically though).
Largest Network I have worked on/managed. Data Center running Dual OC48 Connections (not at full capacity however) Hosting a number of large customers including Sony Entertainment (mail server) along with others.
How about we agree we both have a large knowlegebase in this regards and not try to go back and forth about who is bigger.
quote:
Olethros et Teleute probably says this to all the girls:
Well, at least you're the first person here to have the guts to put your money where your mouth is, so I salute you. Anyone else out there who complains have the balls to do what Ruvyen did?
As a matter of fact, I've cancelled my account as well.
I don't feel that this is warranted... Even if it is, I refuse to pay it.
The EQ P&P RPG'll be out when this billing cycle for me runs down... I just wish I'd known about this last month, before I paid for another six month block... maybe things'll change before the time comes that I lose my account.
Strawberry shakes from the student-run store roxxored too...*sniff* Maybe I can get the 'rents to send money...nah.
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Pesco wrote:
Dude....You know there is nothing bigger then Texas.
Russia, you fewlio.
They give us vodka. What's the last thing you Texans contributed, HUH? Cowboy boots? Pfah.
quote:
Arttemis the Twink spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Russia, you fewlio.They give us vodka. What's the last thing you Texans contributed, HUH? Cowboy boots? Pfah.
YAES!!~!!
Okay...3 bucks extra. That's 33.33 cents shy of being a third of what we pay already. There are those of us who played before Kunark. Not at the very opening, but let's just say before Kunark, for the sake of my personal argument.
I've seen new races, new places, I've seen new spells, I've seen the ongoing (sometimes mistake-making) quest to make the players happy despite the inevitable fact you cannot make everyone happy all the time. They've released two expansions, and recently went back in and flipped some switches to change the original game. They added new spells and abilities to classes.
And all they ask for is 3 bucks more a month. Now...You can look at this one of several ways.
1. The Nerf-Hunter
This is the sort of person who looks at all the bad or disappointing stuff. They're people who go on a holy crusade because a zone isn't up or because magician summoned focus items got a teeny tiny little nerf. They're the people like Maradon used to be who whine incessantly over things that aren't broken. They're just not how we'd like them to be. The underwater zone in Kunark isn't live? How many planes, zones, and critters are there for you to hunt and you're griping about an underwater zone? You must be a very special sort of "Seen it all, done it all" to gripe about that very specific sort of zone. Magician goodies? Yeah they're not as uber as they were when they went live. We still get them, and we're still better off for them.
The Nerf-Hunters mean well. They just have some little tweaks and perks they want to see put in. That's okay. But it's using a new complaint for an old argument to drag the money situation into it.
2. The Bottom Liners
"EQ now makes 30% more money, thus they're making millions and millions of dollars more and they're all greedy bastards."
This is a pretty anal gripe if you ask me. It's like buying hamburgers. So the whopper costs several cents more. Do you bitch about it? No. Do you demand accountability from Burger King as to where the extra cents are going? No. (keep in mind I'm just using Burger King as an example...haven't bought a whopper in ages so I don't know how much they cost).
Yes. 30% more intake means they get 30% more money a month. Newsflash folks...Just as Olethros pointed out there are people who've worked for Verant for 3 years who are expecting raises. People Verant wants to keep around. People WE want Verant to keep around. But let's assume that only part of that money goes into paying these people. Let's assume only part of it goes to development of new games (since in fact VI has been producing the expansions without upping the price in the past). Let's assume only part of it goes into general inflation costs. Shall I keep assuming? Shall I point out that in the near future stamps are going up 10% of their cost per stamp? Shall we get upset about 3 cents a stamp while we're at it?
Numbers can be made to say anything you want them to. The point is to look it all in perspective. And to keep in mind one very simple fact: No profit-making company in the world is about making you happy. That's not a law of business. Oh there may be some idealistic heart to the company that says otherwise, but the basic concept is like milking a cow...maximum amount of milk for minimum amount of moo. If you find a game company out there that makes a game for free solely to please you and functions at the level EQ does, please by all means tell me about it. Tell us all about.
It doesn't exist, by the way. DAoC, EQ, AO, RO, they're all about making money. It's just a matter of how they make money. They do it creating games.
Now then...that little reality check in place. Three bucks. Three whole dollars. Three hundred PENNIES. One cup of good coffee. One hamburger. Two gallons of gas (and change). You might need food. You might need gas to power your car to get to work. But if you're so hard up for 3 bucks a month (A MONTH! That's a dime a day, folks!) that you're having a supernova freak out over this...then you really can't afford this game anyway. It's not a rich elitist attitude, it's not an ass-kisser point of view. It's the truth. And there are plenty of great games that you can play single player or in a limited multiplayer environment that are a lot of fun for free.
Ahem.
The fact is that, appearances to the contrary, I don't think we have people of Group 1 or Group 2. Pesco noticed the 30% thing, but that's not making him an anal retentive sort. Pesco's a great guy. Just seemed off to him. Skaw griped about the underwater zone, but he's not a Nerf-Hunter. He clearly enjoys the hell out of EQ, which you can tell by the fact that even though he's pretty much top of his game right now, he stops to help others enjoy the experience as much as he does.
It just came, I think, as a nasty shock one day. Maybe Verant should have charged in increments. Every year it goes up a dollar or something. Who knows.
In fact the only people, and I'll try to refrain from flaming here, that I don't have much sympathy for are the people with Five or six accounts. I honestly cannot conceive of needing that many. Really. You're shelling out 50 to 60 dollars a month for the privelege of having upwards of 40-48 characters on the same server at any given time. Why? Kloie and her brother shared (or still share, not sure) the same EQ account. The fact is that if you can't afford to share space for convenience, then you really can't afford having that many accounts and all the bitching and whining and moaning and griefing and such won't change that fact.
The truth is that 3 bucks to someone with one or two accounts isn't that big a deal. To someone with 5 it's 15 bucks more a month. To someone with 6 it's 18. Your cost a month just jumped from 50-60 a month to upwards (potentially) of around 80 a month. And for most people that is way too much to spend on amusement like EQ.
Anyways I'm not trying to offend you all with the five accounts or whatever. The fact is that the majority of people in game, I would dare say, don't have as many accounts as you, and to them three bucks per account a month is not big thing. You're just the tiny part of the demographic to whom it is.
/Deth Essay Off
oh and for the record i want to by olethros a three dollar hamburger hehehehe sing it, shaman!
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Palador ChibiDragon had this to say about Tron:
I don't play EQ much, but I do play it. I tend to enjoy it when I play (if I'm not enjoying it, I stop).I'm willing to pay the extra.
I will pay the extra.
For me, it's all as simple as that.
Palador said it the best.
quote:
Azizza had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Maybe you do have more knowlege maybe you don't. Frankly it isn't worthy argueing about. I have enough knowlege to run the IT department at my company Nothing like the size you mentioned. Only four locations across two states (very close physically though).Largest Network I have worked on/managed. Data Center running Dual OC48 Connections (not at full capacity however) Hosting a number of large customers including Sony Entertainment (mail server) along with others.
How about we agree we both have a large knowlegebase in this regards and not try to go back and forth about who is bigger.
I wasn't trying to prove who was bigger, I was simply making the point that you don't need to work for a company that makes MMORPGs to understand communications. And on top of that, just because you did work for one is not in and of itself proof you understand communications throughly. I think I've made my point well enough.
-Tok
Now, it is claimed that "It costs X amount of dollars, they have to charge more"
Show me that they arent meeting those costs. Do you think Everquest would be around three years losing money? NO. Everquest is massively profitable. Profitable enough to make expansion after expansion after expansion without a rate increase.
Need money for those expansion costs? No. You pay for the software and that DOES cover it. Why? Blizzard releases diablo 2. I dont pay 10$ a month for diablo 2, yet off the cost of that box alone, they made profit.
Fact: Eq has more subscribers now then they ever have.
Fact: That "increased" customer service is still only $11/hr. Assuming a GM works 8 hours a day, 5 days a week... Thats roughly $20,000 a year. 2000 customers pay a GMs year salary IN A MONTH.
Fact: Tech support people make 10/hr. (One makes 11 one makes 10 I dont remember which is which).
They dont really pay their base staff, which would be the majority of EQ only staff, very much.
Everquest, at its current charge per month WAS making PROFIT. There is no one here who can deny that. Selling the boxes pays for the development costs associated with the initial creation. The charge per month is ONLY for further development, salaries, etc.
Now, my point is not that I think 3$ a month more is to much. Pesco said it best though, you see 3$ a month, that is a 30% increase in profit. Not something required.
Will I pay 3$ more? Hell yeah, I dont care.
My point is simply this. DONT LIE TO ME.
If Smed had said "I want more money to roll around in, pay more."
I'd pay it and not be mad. Dont bullshit that you need more money when you dont.
I'd they'd said "we;re keeping up with the jones'" That would be fine too.
But they played it like they actually needed this money to continue to make profit. Thats just untrue.
Now, if for that 3$ more, we get additional CS or more content frequently, etc, then I'll see the Bloodsage model (Pay more, get more) but this is a Pay more, get the same situation thus far.
Ferrel!
I don't see this as so much as an attempt to make EQ more profitable, but as a means to keep EQ profitable.
My guess is that SOE paid some large research company a lot of money to do a study on the long term profitability of EQ, and that they found that due to the age of the game, a weaker domestic economy than when the game was released, vastly increased competition from both within and outside SOE, and inflation of their costs of operation that EQ wasn't going to remain at it's current profit level for much longer. A recommendation was probably handed down that due to how addicted their current subscribers are that a rate increase was probably the best way to maintain profitability in the long term.
Now that is just a guess and I'm making a lot of assumptions, but it's a better guess than thinking this rate hike is just so that their top brass can get a pay increase.
Now that being as it is, I'm sure VI expects that some people will balk at paying 3$ more per month for an already dirt cheap service but it isn't a number they really have to worry about. In all likelyhood the number of people who cancel over the increase in price will be smaller than the number of new accounts they take in the month after it comes into effect.
Palou Sabaco 
