quote:

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Maradön? thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Great, my childhood-dream thread has turned into "My cock is bigger than your cock because I joined the military"

I already told you, Bloodsage, I'm prepared to make sacrifices if it means I can achieve my dream. Don't automatically assume I'm too naieve to realize the reality of what that means.

And frankly there are a lot more reasons I'm reluctant to join the military. Not only because I don't think I'd be suited to it, but also because I'm fairly sure I'd be making sacrifices without achieving my dream.

If America were actually threatened - if I were actually needed in the armed forces - I'd join in a heartbeat. As it stands our military really isn't facing much that can't be solved from the air.

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Fuck you.

Where, in any of what I said, did you get that tripe?

If you'd take the 30 seconds or so it takes to read anything I've written, you'd see I specifically said that joining the military was not the only means toward that end. Bonehead.

Perhaps, before you get all indignant, you should do something about the obviously deep-seated sense of personal inadequacy that colors your interpretation of rather benign suggestions with such animus.

I've said several times I was simply pointing out several truths, rather than looking for a fight. If you want one, however, I'm more than happy to oblige.

Care to try me?

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Palador ChibiDragon wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Am I the only one to notice that Bloodsage and Maradön? are actually having two different conversations?

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Nope you arent

quote:

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Palador ChibiDragon had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Am I the only one to notice that Bloodsage and Maradön? are actually having two different conversations?

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No--that's why I'm annoyed.

I saw MANY people who joined for the sole purpose of the "Money for College", even though that was less common at the time for the Marine Corps than it was for the other services (The Marine Corps only had the GIBill, other services had a College fund giving about $30k more money)

As a Marine I ended up getting stationed in a design and test facility, and while I was given the benefit of being able to help design and test new systems, it was a "non-deployable" unit. That meant we didn't go on detachments, we just designed, tested and repaired our systems.

When Desert Storm occurred, there were a LOT of instant Conscientous Objectors. They felt threatened that they might actually have to perform the job they enlisted to do and backed out of it. I believe even 1 Marine did it too. That made me sick to my stomach. They knew when they signed up that the job of the military is to fight, kill, and possibly die.

Many of the Marines I worked with volunteered to go test new systems in the field in Desert Storm, including myself. I had just finished assisting in the design of a mapping system and would have loved to take that system to the field in Saudi. We were all denied going because we were non-deployable.

The military isn't for everyone, not everyone can make the sacrifices, not everyone gets the chances that others do in the military. My job wasn't very "heroic", but it served an important function, and I was proud to do my part.

quote:

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Bloodsage was all like:
You don't have to be a trigger-puller to be doing your part. The important thing is to take that step from "yeah, wouldn't it be cool to be a superhero" to "I think I'll do something with my sense of justice besides wish."

---

"I wish I were a fish."

If you remember the movie, you can see how it ties into Maradon's issue with the military.

Quoting something Kloie had in her quit line for a long time: "If you can read this, thank a teacher." Either of you ever teach high school students? Elementary school? Middle school? Did either of you teach anything other than motivated and willing adults? I'm going to be a teacher. So back the fuck off with the "put up or shut up" attitude.

This thread wasn't an excuse for anyone to say "grow the hell up". Maradon brought up a topic that's dear to my heart, and I responded. Do you honestly think that he and I are so pie in the sky about the subject matter that we would equate ourselves with the world-changing sort of characters we admire? In my case, that's why they're my heroes. I like my life, and the path I'm choosing. I don't go out and risk getting myself shot, but that doesn't mean that my choices in life are any less valid or any less righteous than the ones that military people choose.

I have the utmost respect for the military. I have even more respect for the police. I was going to be a police officer, but I changed my mind due to reasons stemming from my personal life that I choose not to divulge here. But my respect for those two bodies of individuals, police and military, does NOT mean that people from those bodies have the right to tell me that I'm not living up to my dreams.

I'm happy in my life. I've made some mistakes, I've faced some hard times, and I'm sure I'll do both in the future. The road, however, is mine to travel. And so long as I make a positive difference in the world, then I *HAVE* lived up to my ideal. And that's something that jingoistic sorts can't take away from me.

quote:

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Robocop:
DethEssay>You.

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
I don't think that it's any business of any military person to go up to anyone and say "put up or shut up" to any non-military person. A lot of people on the boards are doing jobs that help achieve your way of life, and they aren't military-related.

Quoting something Kloie had in her quit line for a long time: "If you can read this, thank a teacher." Either of you ever teach high school students? Elementary school? Middle school? Did either of you teach anything other than motivated and willing adults? I'm going to be a teacher. So back the fuck off with the "put up or shut up" attitude.

This thread wasn't an excuse for anyone to say "grow the hell up". Maradon brought up a topic that's dear to my heart, and I responded. Do you honestly think that he and I are so pie in the sky about the subject matter that we would equate ourselves with the world-changing sort of characters we admire? In my case, that's why they're my heroes. I like my life, and the path I'm choosing. I don't go out and risk getting myself shot, but that doesn't mean that my choices in life are any less valid or any less righteous than the ones that military people choose.

I have the utmost respect for the military. I have even more respect for the police. I was going to be a police officer, but I changed my mind due to reasons stemming from my personal life that I choose not to divulge here. But my respect for those two bodies of individuals, police and military, does NOT mean that people from those bodies have the right to tell me that I'm not living up to my dreams.

I'm happy in my life. I've made some mistakes, I've faced some hard times, and I'm sure I'll do both in the future. The road, however, is mine to travel. And so long as I make a positive difference in the world, then I *HAVE* lived up to my ideal. And that's something that jingoistic sorts can't take away from me.

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What the fuck are you talking about now?

For someone claiming to want to be a teacher, and quoting cute little aphorisms, it's rather ironic that you've not bothered to read a word I've said.

Point to a place, any place, where I a) said that joining the military was the only way to "put up or shut up," or b) said that anyone in the military, least of all me, was automatically superior to anyone not.

If you can't do that, then a) shut the fuck up, and b) apologize.

I've explained this over and over, and if you and Maradon would get off your fucking high horses with the indignant bullshit, you'd see you're making this shit up, because it certainly doesn't exist in anything I've said.

How many times do you have to be told?

What the fuck do you think I meant when I said one doesn't have to be a trigger-puller? What the fuck do you think I meant when I listed the fire department and CDC alongside the military and police? Are you really so stupid you thought I intended that as an exhaustive list?

Well, since you and Maradon seem incapable of deducing the meaning of the most straightforward English prose, here's the moral of the story:

Putting one's philosophy into action, an accepting the sacrifices that go along with it, is the difference between the superhero and the wannabe. Anyone can sit around wishing to have superpowers and saying what great things they'd do if they did, but it takes someone truly extraordinary to use the gifts they do have to make a difference in the world. Anyone can do so; few bother.

Now, would you like to say anything else stupid and insulting, or are you quite through? I really don't give a flying fuck why you two are so insecure, but--please--leave me the hell out of it.

There are more ways to make a difference in the world than something involving violence. I think this is the point that Deth and Maradon are trying to make, and the view that you're missing.

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We were all impressed when Lyinar wrote:
Sage, I really respect you a lot, but I do think you're slightly in the wrong here. You tend to go on your own military high horse quite often, and make people feel that if they're not in the military, or something related, then they're not helping mankind.

There are more ways to make a difference in the world than something involving violence. I think this is the point that Deth and Maradon are trying to make, and the view that you're missing.

---

The point, that you're all missing, is that I've said nothing of the kind here.

Honest.

Point to it, if you can.

I said--specifically--that one doesn't need to be a trigger-puller. I specifically included the CDC (feel free to correct me if that's suddenly become a military organization) to illustrate the point the first time I was misunderstood.

I don't have, and never have had, a "military high horse." I speak about that only when certain morons denigrate service . . . and I'd be just as quick to defend cops or fire fighters or teachers anyone else dedicated to community service. And I have.

Take off the blinders, and forget what you asssume or think you know about me, and read what I've said. It's all there. And nowhere did I point to the military as anything other than one avenue amongst many.

So . . . explain to me why I'm supposedly lying when I say, over and again, what it is I actually mean? Or is it that you think I lack the skills to make the language do what I tell it, and have misunderstood my own posts?

{edit: danm tpyos}

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

I've *seen* this, Sage. Many times. You do have a bias for the military, and you do tend to use that bias and slightly (not a lot, but there is a certain tone) degrade those that choose not to take part in it.

Nor does speaking of what I know mean I think that's the only path to a particular goal. The whole purpose of examples is to demonstrate links between things, and show possibilities.

Nor can I help what others choose to read into what I say, and, frankly, I'll be damned if I'll include caveats lest the insecure feel slighted by something I've not said.

Although you may get the impression, nowhere have I said, or even hinted, that serving in the military is the only path to useful service. What does offend me, however, is the attitude, oft expressed around here by some of the younger crowd, that service to community of whatever kind is somehow ignoble, a chore to be done by those without real skills. It annoys me more when directed at the military, since I not only know better, but know the people who risk their lives to make that greed possible.

Hell, I've never even argued for universal service. I think one of the great bennies of a free society is the right, and the convenience, to do whatever one wants. Made possible, of course, by the police, fire fighters, military, and a host of others who sacrifice so that others may be carefree.

Finally, how is this different than the shrine to geekish angst to which we so often bow around here? Remember Maradon's thread claiming a pair of girls were judgmental and stupid because--gasp!--they neither knew nor wanted to know about computer hardware or software? Remember the "jocks are evil villains" thread not too long ago?

And those are overt examples of the very thing that's so horrible it makes me evil even though I've not said it. How does that work?

Perhaps people need to spend more time reading the words on the page, and less time trying to psychoanalyze me from imagined hints and allusions. Just a thought.

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Bloodsage had this to say about Cuba:
Ah, so you like the idea of being a hero--as long as it doesn't involve discomfort, inconvenience, or self-sacrifice? I think you've discovered the difference between "superhero" and "wannabe."

Not a flame, but more of a . . . reality check.

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That was after Maradon responded to your "Join. The. Military." post, Sage.

Starting to see where we're coming from? Your first post to the thread is an add for the armed forces in relation to a superhero thread. The insinuation is that the military is a great place to be a superhero.

Your second one is that we all need a reality check because our choices make us wannabes. It doesn't take an intuitive leap of any great size to come to the conclusion that you're insinuating that Military = Real Threats = Living Up to Superhero Ideal, and that our choices in living up to our ideals and changing the world for the better in our ways requires you to bless us with your flame/reality check.

We don't need your help or assistance. If we misunderstand you, then you've also CLEARLY misunderstood us. And your opinion on Superhero philosophy is tied to a 50's/60's comic book mentality.

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Perhaps people need to spend more time reading the words on the page, and less time trying to psychoanalyze me from imagined hints and allusions. Just a thought.

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You seem to love to do it to everyone else. Seems like fair play from my seat.

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael wrote this stupid crap:

That was after Maradon responded to your "Join. The. Military." post, Sage.

Starting to see where we're coming from? Your first post to the thread is an add for the armed forces in relation to a superhero thread. The insinuation is that the military is a great place to be a superhero.

Your second one is that we all need a reality check because our choices make us wannabes. It doesn't take an intuitive leap of any great size to come to the conclusion that you're insinuating that Military = Real Threats = Living Up to Superhero Ideal, and that our choices in living up to our ideals and changing the world for the better in our ways requires you to bless us with your flame/reality check.

We don't need your help or assistance. If we misunderstand you, then you've also CLEARLY misunderstood us. And your opinion on Superhero philosophy is tied to a 50's/60's comic book mentality.

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Find a dictionary, then use it. An insinuation involves action and intent on my part.

Now, unless you've suddenly become psychic, what you've actually got is an inference, on your part.

You've made not the least attempt to read a word I've said, or to understand my point, though I've spoken it plainly enough.

As I said the first time, my response to Maradon was to his unwillingness to be inconvenienced, rather than his unwillingness to join the military. I even went out of my way, knowing that misunderstanding might be possible, to point out that I was not, in any way, attacking anyone, but rather making a philosophical point that acting is better than wishing.

Perhaps you simply lack the philosophical sophistication to see that, or to argue otherwise?

As I also said earlier, I said, "Join. The. Military," simply because it sounded close to what he said in his initial post. I later clarified, if you had bothered to read.

How many fucking times do you have to be told that I wasn't EVER saying the military was the only option?

Just the fact that you have to accuse me of "insinuating," shows you haven't a leg to stand on, other than your willful inability to read plain English.

Where the fuck have you been this last 16 months or so? When was the last time I chose passive-aggressive "insinuation" over simply speaking my mind? When?

Or, even worse than your rampant insecurities masquerading as moral outrage, is it your contention that sitting on your ass thinking how cool it would be to have superpowers is actually equal to, or better than, doing something to make the world a better place?

Get off it. You've yet to provide a single example where I said anything even resembling the bullshit you've chosen to invent.

What, exactly, is it that gives you any evidence--or even the right--to suggest that I'm lying when I have explained what I meant repeatedly?

The only ones I see trolling here are a couple of insecure folks unwilling to have an intelligent conversation on a minor point of philosophy.

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and D was all like:
You seem to love to do it to everyone else. Seems like fair play from my seat.

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Ah, but only when I'm flaming--it's part of the art.

It has no place in actual conversation.

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Duck Tales:
I also resent the "Geekish Angst" comment. That was a flame. Get lost, Sage. Comments like that are trolling. And I definitely don't want to think of you as a troll.

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Characterizations can't work both ways, then?

How . . . odd.

You're not usually this dull; how is it you keep missing the point?

One thread. 27 conversations.

This has to be a new record

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Fennar was all like:
Amazing.

One thread. 27 conversations.

This has to be a new record

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its cwazy!

Not a single fucking place did Bloodsage ever say anything about the military being the only option. Some of you talk about him being on a high horse? Wtf? Where are you people READING this shit?

Who has a "put up or shut up attitude"?

Frankly, Bloodsage just gave him an alternative, but for whatever reason people read it as something different.

How in the world someone can read:

"join the military"
as:
"if you dont join the military, you dont have balls blah blah, put up/shut up"

I guess if you are going to make up your own silly story regardless of what people say, there's no real point in continuing.

EDIT: BRWEREAWRW

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Karnaj ]

quote:

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Bloodsage had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Ah, so you like the idea of being a hero--as long as it doesn't involve discomfort, inconvenience, or self-sacrifice? I think you've discovered the difference between "superhero" and "wannabe."

Not a flame, but more of a . . . reality check.

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So what is this saying except that by not choosing to be part of the military, then everything else he does is going to be easy and thereby, less worthy?

There are other ways he could be a hero than joining the military, and some others that involve discomfort, inconvenience, and self-sacrifice, but you've completely ignored any alternative but the military for being a hero.

Take a chill labled "Chill"! all of you

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Lyinar thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
So what is this saying except that by not choosing to be part of the military, then everything else he does is going to be easy and thereby, less worthy?

There are other ways he could be a hero than joining the military, and some others that involve discomfort, inconvenience, and self-sacrifice, but you've completely ignored any alternative but the military for being a hero.

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I cleared this up already.

That quotation had nothing at all to do with the military part of the conversation. It addressed only the "it's inconvenient" argument against acting upon the superhero philosophy.

Did you even bother to read my very next post? Hmmmm?

Here it is, for the reading impaired, the jerks, the insecure, and those too lazy to follow the conversation:

quote:

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Bloodsage said this, but no one was listening:
I'm attacking no one. Really.

Touchy, perhaps?

Military, police, fire department, CDC . . . there are many ways to be a superhero in real life. Given Maradon's initial post, the military sounded the closest to what he described.

Just wanted to point out that wishing to be a superhero is one thing, while going out and doing it is quite another. Opportunities to be one in real life abound.

But it involves discomfort, inconvenience, and self-sacrifice. The aspects of being a superhero everyone ignores, though they're what make the hero a hero.

Not sure what you take me for, but when I say I'm not flaming, I'm not flaming. That's why I say it, you see: so there'll be no misunderstanding.

Neener.

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CDC, for those living under rocks, is "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." I included that specifically as a nod to Maradon's, 'Deth's, and your interest in biology--specifically to dispell the misperception that I was only talking about the military or violent things. Notice, also, how I spoke of plural "opportunities" that "abound"--hardly looks to me like I'm advocating a single avenue toward supehero status.

All I've advocated, throughout this thread, is the need to do something beyond wishing.

Oh, but wait, I've said this before. Deja Vu! Is anyone listening this time?!

I'm severely disappointed in all three of you.

What reason do you have to flame me right off the bat, ignore every explanation, and accuse me of--somehow--putting messages into my posts the words don't support? What qualifications do you have that let you see the underlying reasons for what I say--hidden, apparantly, even from myself--and react to them, rather than the words on the page?

Even beyond the outright betrayal of what I had thought was a friendship, whatever gave you the impression you'd come out on top in a direct confrontation of this nature? Try if you must, but you'd be better served finding something other than alleged insinuations and imaginary patterns of behavior on which to base your animus.

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Star Collective thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Heh, Bloodsage is the type of person I can definitely respect, but I'm pretty sure I could never be a friend to.

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Eh. You might be surprised. Or you might not.

Beware thinking you know me based upon what I choose to argue on a single messageboard.

On the other hand, does it really matter?

I meet and interact politely with dozens of people every single day with whom I haven't the least desire to become friends.

Neener?

Ack! Lyinar! I had almost defused the situation!

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Lyinar stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Sage, I'm NOT trying to flame you, but you're seriously getting on my last nerve with this. You come into a thread addressed to someone else, see a comment you don't like and start attacking people for it. Are you going to go into Maradon's VR thread next and bitch at him because he's not out there making that sort of VR situation a reality? Are you going to call everyone who ever even thinks of dreaming of something a "wannabe" just because they don't have the ability to make it come to pass right now? This entire thread started because of two people that shared an interest. Leave them the fuck alone and let them talk about it, sheesh.

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He never, EVER said anything like that.

sighs and settles in for the flame wars until he can formulate another strategy to defuse it

Maradon starts a thread telling Deth they have a similar interest in superheroes. Maradon says he has an aspiration to be the same.

Sage posts that he should join the military. Maradon gives him reasons why the military is not for him.

Sage posts again talking about how Maradon likes the idea of being a hero, but he must not like discomfort, inconvenience or self-sacrifice. All Maradon said was he didn't want to uproot himself to go to military school.

Maradon only said he didn't want to be in the military, not that he didn't want to be in anything that could be construed as heroic. Sage implied with his post that the only way to be heroic was join the military.

Sage attacked him for a personal choice, basically saying he was selfish, just because he had very valid reasons not to join the miliary. Sorry, but I see a problem in insulting someone just because they don't choose the same path you did.

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Lyinar wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Sage, I'm NOT trying to flame you, but you're seriously getting on my last nerve with this. You come into a thread addressed to someone else, see a comment you don't like and start attacking people for it. Are you going to go into Maradon's VR thread next and bitch at him because he's not out there making that sort of VR situation a reality? Are you going to call everyone who ever even thinks of dreaming of something a "wannabe" just because they don't have the ability to make it come to pass right now? This entire thread started because of two people that shared an interest. Leave them the fuck alone and let them talk about it, sheesh.

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And here, class, we see the transition from disappointment to full-blown annoyance.

While I appreciate your no-doubt astute, but nevertheless completely off-base attempt to tell me what I was thinking, I must refer you to the actual written record of what happened here.

Have you bothered to read it at all?

If this were, indeed, some sort of private conversation in which it was verboten for others to participate, then Maradon and 'Deth should have taken it to PM. As a public thread, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to participate, nor possible for me to predict the mindless flames my rather innocent comments would elicit.

Let's look at what actually happened:

1. Maradon starts a thread

2. I suggest a real-world option, based upon his post

3. Maradon responds that he considered it, but didn't want the inconvenience

4. I point out that accepting inconvenience is part of what it means to be a superhero (speaking generally, but I see the confusion on this point)

5. 'Deth accuses me of attacking either superheroes or people who don't want to join the military--notwithstanding my exlicit disclaimer that I wasn't flaming anyone at all

6. I clarify that I'm not attacking anyone, or saying that the military is the only option, but simply pointing out that the difference between a superhero and a wannabe is acting rather than wishing

7. All hell breaks loose as people decide to flame me for things I neither said nor implied, but rather explicitly clarified to avoid

8. I become annoyed

Which part of that is not a fair characterization of what happened? At what point did I not explicitly specify exactly what I was talking about, in direct contradiction to the slanderous interpretation you hotheads insist upon believing?

If you're going to get offended and start a fight, it's traditional to have a reason.

I'm game either way though:

You and the horse you were ridden in on can both take a flying leap back into the morass of hypocrisy from which you came.