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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about (_|_):
Keeping loaded weapons in a home is dangerous and in most cases foolish even if they are locked up. This is even more true in a home with childern, even if they're in a locked case as childern have a way of getting around locks. Remember you are more likely to get shot with your own firearm than to shoot an intruder. I'm not saying that you shouldn't protect yourself, but you don't have to be "packin" to do it. You can protect yourself by taking simple procautions, one way deadbolts, permanently sealing downstairs windows, shatterproof glass in sliding doors, etc. Personally I own two firearms, neither are loaded, and both are locked in different locations within my home. Also the bullets for both are kept in different locations, this is done to protect me from my own weapons in the case of an intruder.What is needed in this country is stricter enforcement of existing weapon laws, and a requirement of proficency in firearm use and safety to purchase said weapons. Much like the requirements for obtaining a drivers license. That said I am against concealed weapon laws and handguns in general as I feel they have little practical use other than killing people. I'm all for defending one's self, but concealed handguns are a danger to everyone due to the possible mishaps that can happen in any crisis situation where one might be used, no matter how well trained the user is.
I've been around firearms since before I could walk. I was taught properly by my parents to respect them. I was taught how to handle them when I was of age, and was given my own.
Firearms are like any tool, the only thing dangerous is the wielder.
In EVERY state concealed carry laws have been passed, the violent crime rate has dropped drastically. I really don't think that's just a coincidence.
Kanid I've likely been around firearms just as long, if not longer than you have. My father was a gunsmith, and I learned how to use firearms so long ago I cannot remember the point in time anymore. I have a healthy respect with firearms, and with that respect comes certain assumptions.
1> Firearms as a deterant is bullshit, if you point a gun at someone you had better intend to kill them. If you are not willing to pull the trigger you should not be holding a gun.
2> Someone willing to take the time and effort to get a concealed weapon permit is indeed able to draw the weapon, click off the safety, point it at another human being, and kill that person. I do not want that person armed anywhere near me in public, they are dangerous to themselves and others for the simple fact that they are willing and able to kill.
3> No matter how well trained, no matter how well intentioned, or how mentaly stable a person is, there is no way to tell how that person will handle a firearm in a crisis situation until it happens. With that in mind there is zero assurance that that weapon will not kill or harm an innocent, and to put it bluntly I'm not willing to put that burden on anyone not in the field of law enforcement.
Now, no more assumptions and on to facts. Violent crimes involving firearms have declined nationwide over the last decade. This includes states which have not passed concealed weapon laws. It is more likely the decline is a result of better education, tougher law enforcement, and better public awareness than any faux security created by concealed weapon laws.
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about pies:
1> Firearms as a deterant is bullshit, if you point a gun at someone you had better intend to kill them. If you are not willing to pull the trigger you should not be holding a gun.
Two entirely seperate topics.
1) Never point a firearm at something unless you are going to shoot it. Never shoot something you aren't going to kill.
2) Just because I draw my weapon and the criminal runs away at the sight of it, does not mean I wouldn't have shot him if he had remained in my home.
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2> Someone willing to take the time and effort to get a concealed weapon permit is indeed able to draw the weapon, click off the safety, point it at another human being, and kill that person. I do not want that person armed anywhere near me in public, they are dangerous to themselves and others for the simple fact that they are willing and able to kill.
I feel sorry for you that there is nothing you find precious enough to defend with your life, or the lives of those who are trying to take it. I know I would lay down my life to protect my children, and surely would take the life of an intruder in my home to prevent any harm from coming to my children or myself.
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3> No matter how well trained, no matter how well intentioned, or how mentaly stable a person is, there is no way to tell how that person will handle a firearm in a crisis situation until it happens. With that in mind there is zero assurance that that weapon will not kill or harm an innocent, and to put it bluntly I'm not willing to put that burden on anyone not in the field of law enforcement.
So by going through the police academy and putting on a badge, someone all of a sudden becomes better than the average person? It doesn't work that way, law enforcement personel are the same as everyone else, and they are NOT required to protect anyone, nor can they enter your home until a crime has already occurred.
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Now, no more assumptions and on to facts.
Those were facts, sorry they disagree with your opinion.
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Violent crimes involving firearms have declined nationwide over the last decade. This includes states which have not passed concealed weapon laws. It is more likely the decline is a result of better education, tougher law enforcement, and better public awareness than any faux security created by concealed weapon laws.
The degree of decline is far greater in states with CC laws, as you would be able to tell if you compared state to state. Check your annual FBI manual of statistics, available at the local public and college libraries.
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about Pirotess:
2> Someone willing to take the time and effort to get a concealed weapon permit is indeed able to draw the weapon, click off the safety, point it at another human being, and kill that person. I do not want that person armed anywhere near me in public, they are dangerous to themselves and others for the simple fact that they are willing and able to kill.
Well shit. I guess I'll never leave my house again since I could kill someone with my keys, and you could possibly be my neighbor. God knows your safety is more important than the person's who went to extra measures to protect themselves.
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Personally I own two firearms, neither are loaded, and both are locked in different locations within my home. Also the bullets for both are kept in different locations, this is done to protect me from my own weapons in the case of an intruder.
The resounding question in my mind is: Why? Do you think you will end up shooting yourself instead of the burglar, or are you afraid that he/she will find the weapon and shoot at you?
Kanid I've yet to see any studies that proved on a state by state basis that concealed weapon laws lowered violent crime rates. On the other hand studies have been done that proved that violent crime rates have declined nationwide due to education, public awarness, and tougher law enforcement.
Second I am indeed willing to defend my child, I take every reasonable precaution to do so. What I am not willing to do is allow others to endanger my child recklessly so they can have some false sense of security. Such is the case with concealed handguns in the hands of Joe Nobody who isn't willing to trust his local law enforcement. I'm all for protecting yourself, but carrying a concealed handgun does NOT in any way make it safer for you to walk down the street, all it does is endanger those around you. Remember you are carrying that weapon to kill someone, even if that someone is a violent criminal, it is not your place or job to kill. Self defense, sure go for it, but don't let your self defense endanger me, my child, or other innocents.
D the weapons in my home are for sport, I own a shotgun for shooting trap, and I own a 30-30 for deer hunting. Neither weapon is for self defense, therefore they are not kept in a position where they can be used to defend myself or be used to endanger myself.
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Kanid I've yet to see any studies that proved on a state by state basis that concealed weapon laws lowered violent crime rates. On the other hand studies have been done that proved that violent crime rates have declined nationwide due to education, public awarness, and tougher law enforcement.
I gave you the reference, compare the states with CC laws to the states without.
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Second I am indeed willing to defend my child, I take every reasonable precaution to do so. What I am not willing to do is allow others to endanger my child recklessly so they can have some false sense of security. Such is the case with concealed handguns in the hands of Joe Nobody who isn't willing to trust his local law enforcement.
Trust local law enforcement to do what? Protect you? Law states they do not have to, nor have they proven able to in the past. They CANNOT act until a crime has already been commited, so you're probably dead before they get there. And they don't HAVE to act at all to defend anyone, as enforced by the US Supreme court.
If you want to place your life and the lives of those you love in the hands of strangers who have no obligation to protect you, nor ability to act until after you are already harmed or killed, be my guest. I choose to protect my family the best that I am able. Self defense is defending yourself, because no one else can, or will do it.
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D-Man said this on the first page, first REPLY:2) Why do some people not have any security for their home. Like a weapon of any kind, or security system.
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Because those types of people usually believe the police will protect them.
[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: D ]
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We were all impressed when Tyewa Dawnsister wrote:
Blah Blah Blah.
Please do us all a favor and sell those guns you own.
Where shall I start here? AHh ok
Your statement that having a gun in the house is more likely to cause you harm than to a person breaking in.
Not true in the least. This comes from an OLD study that was disproved and revoked almost as soon as it was published. Basicly it was a one sided report with no basis in fact. But people still love to use it to try to validate thier view.
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1> Firearms as a deterant is bullshit, if you point a gun at someone you had better intend to kill them. If you are not willing to pull the trigger you should not be holding a gun.
I can speak from experience that a Firearm is a VERY good Deterant. Would I be willing to pull the trigger? Hell yes. Would I want to? No way..
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2> Someone willing to take the time and effort to get a concealed weapon permit is indeed able to draw the weapon, click off the safety, point it at another human being, and kill that person. I do not want that person armed anywhere near me in public, they are dangerous to themselves and others for the simple fact that they are willing and able to kill.
And why do you not want these people near you? Are you saying you would rather be surrounded by people that would hide behind you if some nutcase starts to kill people?
I for one would rather be surrounded by people that I know have the means and the training to defend themselves and others.
Explain to me how I am dangerous to myself or others because I am carrying a gun. Right now. Yes as I write this there is a .45 callibler pistol in a holder in the small of my back.
So tell me how that makes me dangerous to Me, my friends, or anyone else around me.
Is the gun going to suddenly go off? Nope They don't do that.. Is it going to jump out of the holster and start shooting people? Nope dont' think so. It can't do that. It is metal and plastic. It has no mind of it's own.
THe only person I am dangerous to is someone who wishes to do me harm.
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No matter how well trained, no matter how well intentioned, or how mentaly stable a person is, there is no way to tell how that person will handle a firearm in a crisis situation until it happens. With that in mind there is zero assurance that that weapon will not kill or harm an innocent, and to put it bluntly I'm not willing to put that burden on anyone not in the field of law enforcement.
Hate to break the news to you but fewer CCW holders harm an innocent each year than police do. Studies have PROVEN that the Average CCW holder has more training and practices more with thier firearm than police do. I have a lot of respect for Law enforcement but frankly I dont' trust them with my life.
Case in point. About 8 weeks ago I was at Kieslers shopping (not working for once) An officer came in to have his weapon worked on. It was a very nice Sig 226 in .40 calliber. Well he could not get the slide to cycle and he needed it for qualifications in a couple days. Since I was there I decided to nose in and see what was up with it.
Turns out that this officer had shot the gun at the last qualification (a year previous) then reloaded it and put it in his holster. It had not been drawn since. Not even to clean. Is this the kind of person I want to trust my life with? No I think not.
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Now, no more assumptions and on to facts. Violent crimes involving firearms have declined nationwide over the last decade. This includes states which have not passed concealed weapon laws. It is more likely the decline is a result of better education, tougher law enforcement, and better public awareness than any faux security created by concealed weapon laws.
Crime in Cities/states with the most restrictive Gun laws has actually gone up..
States with CCW laws have dropped drasticly. Much more so than states without such laws.
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about Captain Planet:
Greetings,Kanid I've yet to see any studies that proved on a state by state basis that concealed weapon laws lowered violent crime rates. On the other hand studies have been done that proved that violent crime rates have declined nationwide due to education, public awarness, and tougher law enforcement.
Second I am indeed willing to defend my child, I take every reasonable precaution to do so. What I am not willing to do is allow others to endanger my child recklessly so they can have some false sense of security. Such is the case with concealed handguns in the hands of Joe Nobody who isn't willing to trust his local law enforcement. I'm all for protecting yourself, but carrying a concealed handgun does NOT in any way make it safer for you to walk down the street, all it does is endanger those around you. Remember you are carrying that weapon to kill someone, even if that someone is a violent criminal, it is not your place or job to kill. Self defense, sure go for it, but don't let your self defense endanger me, my child, or other innocents.
D the weapons in my home are for sport, I own a shotgun for shooting trap, and I own a 30-30 for deer hunting. Neither weapon is for self defense, therefore they are not kept in a position where they can be used to defend myself or be used to endanger myself.
So what you're saying is that the Keltec .32 Auto that is concealed in my waistband is endangering your children because it's there, and, if I were forced to use it, would be much more dangerous than, say, the person who just drew a firearm on them? That the Prac Tac that I have in a safe next to my bed is putting me in danger, because I might hold the damn thing backwards and blow my cojones off? Hot diggity damn, I'd best get rid of them then! While I'm at it, I should probably get rid of all my butter knives, too, because those sharp, bladed objects will endanger the poor little kiddies! I see two very distinct scenarios in my mind right now...
Scenario 1.
I've taken (I forgot how to spell your name. Sorry. 
) the paladin's advice and disarmed myself because of the inherent danger that exists because I keep firearms readily accessible. My house is broken into at night by an armed assailant who wants to rape my wife/murder my kids/whatever situation you find appropriate. I, being an upstanding yet unarmed citizen, pass the crim the bong, ask him to make love, not war, and am consequentially shot. The crim gets away with whatever he came to do, and when law enforcement arrives on the scene, they tell me that they're almost 99% sure that I'm dead.
Scenario 2.
I keep a Prac Tac next to my bed in a safe at night. My house is broken into at night by an armed assailant who wants to rape my wife/murder my kids/whatever situation you find appropriate. I, being an upstanding, armed citizen, confront the crim, neutralizing if necessary. When law enforcement arrives on the scene, I'm told, in very certain terms, that I'm alive.
Where is the inherent danger to your family in the first scenario, who happened to be in the next apartment over?
Now what's the danger in the second?
Yeah, I realize that the first paragraph is a bit harsh. Bite me.
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Arttemis the Twink had this to say about Robocop:
Scenario 1.I've taken (I forgot how to spell your name. Sorry.
) the paladin's advice and disarmed myself because of the inherent danger that exists because I keep firearms readily accessible. My house is broken into at night by an armed assailant who wants to rape my wife/murder my kids/whatever situation you find appropriate. I, being an upstanding yet unarmed citizen, pass the crim the bong, ask him to make love, not war, and am consequentially shot. The crim gets away with whatever he came to do, and when law enforcement arrives on the scene, they tell me that they're almost 99% sure that I'm dead.
Scenario 2.
I keep a Prac Tac next to my bed in a safe at night. My house is broken into at night by an armed assailant who wants to rape my wife/murder my kids/whatever situation you find appropriate. I, being an upstanding, armed citizen, confront the crim, neutralizing if necessary. When law enforcement arrives on the scene, I'm told, in very certain terms, that I'm alive.
Where is the inherent danger to your family in the first scenario, who happened to be in the next apartment over?
Now what's the danger in the second?
]
Buy some single sided deadbolts, seal your downstairs windows, and put a shatterproof pane on your sliding door. No one is getting into your house without making enough noise to wake the dead not to mention your neighbors. Unless you've really pissed someone off you aren't in much of a threat to have your wife/daughter raped in the middle of the night. Thus no need for loaded weapons in the house.
As for concealed weapons in public, the moment you draw that weapon you are indeed a danger to your assilant, but also to everyone else in the area. That .45 is going to stop whoever is trying to get the 40$ in your wallet, but while it indeed could take the life of a petty thief that same .45 which was fired in haste could hit the kid in the playground across the street.
Kanid get real, while the Supreme Court has indeed ruled that it is not the job of the Police Forces to bodyguard people, every large police force in the US has institutied preventitative measures and polices because it's found that fewer crimes happen if you try to prevent them. So with that in mind, the police are far more qualified than any right wing vigilante who thinks it's his right to tote his .45 to everywhere he goes, not only are they more qualified in every sense of the word, but it's in fact their job.
As for the police officer who hadn't drawn his gun in a year. I'm not at all surprised, a very large number of police officers, people walking a beat or on patrol, have retired having never drawn their firearm in the line of duty. I'm sure most of those will tell you they are glad they were never forced to do so. In fact the most decorated officer in the Chicago history never once drew his firearm in 32 years of service. Hmm interesting isn't it, that a beat cop in Chicago never had the need to draw his weapon, yet somehow it's important that you carry this loaded weapon.
No concealed weapons are reckless and dangerous, I know I cannot convince you but that doesn't change the fact. If you want to tote a gun in public, join the police force and get a good reason to do so.
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Tyewa Dawnsister wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
As for the police officer who hadn't drawn his gun in a year. I'm not at all surprised, a very large number of police officers, people walking a beat or on patrol, have retired having never drawn their firearm in the line of duty. I'm sure most of those will tell you they are glad they were never forced to do so. In fact the most decorated officer in the Chicago history never once drew his firearm in 32 years of service. Hmm interesting isn't it, that a beat cop in Chicago never had the need to draw his weapon, yet somehow it's important that you carry this loaded weapon.
You missed the point, again.
His firearm was not properly maintained. It was not cleaned, it was in great danger of not working when someone's life depended on it.
Do you want to need the assistance of an armed police officer's weapon, only to see it not work because the officer didn't take proper care of it? I sure as hell don't.
I do not wish to become a police officer. But I do wish to be able to defend myself.
If you would pay attention on these boards you would know that if not for my carrying a Firearm I would most likely be dead right now. I can bring 2 women to this board who can attest to the usefulness of a firearm when someone is trying to rape them. All your wonderful security measures you suggest.. Well they had many of them if not more. Did them no good. The firearm they kept loaded and close at hand did help them. One shot her attacker the other held him at gunpoint till the police got there.
Now if I were to call Sara and ask her if she regretted killing the man she would tel me NO. She saved herself and probably her daughter as well..
Now as for you statement that a CCW holder is more dangerous to others than the criminal...
How about you study your facts a bit.
As I stated earlier there are somewhere between 400,000 and 2 million Defensive uses of a firearm by civilians every year. By what you say about half those would end with an innocent hurt.. Funny but I sure don't hear about very many. Do you?
A couple facts..
More children die in swimmingpools every year than there are TOTAL gun deaths yearly.
The chance of a civilian harming another innocent with a firearm is about 1/100th that of a police harming an innocent.
Nationwide CCW holders have a lower crive rate than Police officers, doctors, and even than Priests. This means everything from traffic tickets to Class A felonies.
And finally.
A CCW holder on average has more training than a Police officer, is more likely not to shoot an innocent, and is also more likely not to have to shoot if they must pull thier weapon.
These are all PROVEN facts. I can go get all the studies and reports to back them up if you want. Because EVERY independent study that has been done shows that Gun ownership reduces crime and the chance of someone getting hurt. the only time you find one that states otherwise is when it is comisioned by HCI, ceasefire, etc.
I would suggest getting a book called More guns, Less crime by Prof. John Lott
He set out to prove that guns were dangerous and not fit for civilians. By the time his study was done he realised that civilians owning firearms decreases crime in an area. He is now one of the most outspoken avocates of Civilian gun ownership in the country.
If you have ever wondered about a dead persons family, dont bother.
If you have to use the sights, Dont bother.
For some people, it may seem a simple thing to take another life. It is made even simpler if that person means harm upon you, or those you love. But imagine it through the eyes of that persons mother.
The guy who broke into your house, was looking to rob you, rape you, murder you. but thats not how his mother would remember it. She will remember her son, who made a mistake by wishing the harm of others. Now her son is dead. She weeps at the funeral. She wears black for a year. She remembers the story in the newspaper about the "Local Hero" who stood up for themselves, and thier home.
She hates you with every shred of her soul.
Your friends. They seem to hadle it just fine. you did them proud, defending yourself like that. But not all of them are your real friends. Some of them dont know you very well. They wonder about you, and if you might have gotten a taste for blood. Hell, some of your oldest friends start to look at you a little different. You are changed by taking a life, and they can see it. They are still your friends, but do they want to be in the same room as you and your weapon?
Your Wife. She's scared shitless. First somebody breaks into the house. You see them with something in thier hand. Its dark, it looks like a weapon. You put a matched pair of .357 rounds in his chest. You turn on the hallway light. You see a flashlight, and a burlap sack. your wife sees the same thing, but she doesn't see it as a weapon in the dark. She sees a dead man, and blood on her walls. Soaking into the carpet. She sees you, standing proud over your kill.
His friends. They saw your picture. They know your name. Somebody else was with him, waiting outside. He knows what you did, and where you live. He's gone for now, scared off by the gunshots, and the police.....
Your Children. They heard it. They are in thier beds, screaming for thier mother. When you yell, and tell them its ok, to stop screaming, they come out.. and see what your wife saw. They stay up all night, being asked questions by the police, about Daddy, and his Guns. They also have nightmares for life.
Not all of this will flash through your mind at the moment. Not everything will be true.
But if you are going to keep a gun in your home, you really should make them cross your mind before it happens. Because if you hesitate. If you take a moment to aim. If you pause a second to consider things.
You lose.
Killing anyone isn't something to be done lightly, but that's not to say it isn't something ever to be done.
A freaking boatload of Republican Guard soliders all had mothers as me and my crew rained half a million pounds of bombs onto their positions . . . but that doesn't mean I regret it. Or that I should.
How much more so, when it's my family in danger?
I feel perfectly comfortable assuming anyone who, despite the dog, enters my house is armed and intends violence. I won't hesitate a fraction to use deadly force in defense of my family.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Azizza I would indeed enjoy reading your unbiased reports on the matter that proved through the use of modern science of what you claim.
I'm sorry you have friends or have yourself ever had to defend yourself in the manner of taking someone elses life. It's a huge burden I would never wish upon anyone, but in hindsight could those situations have been avoided by being better prepared? Maybe not, maybe so I'm not in a situation to judge what may have happened to you or your friends.
I'm far from the sheep you claim, I take measures to protect myself and my family. I hardly take my safety or that of my daughter for granted, I've taken steps to make my home safe, I've taken steps to protect myself in public, and I for some reason do not carry a loaded firearm. Might I suggest non leathal means of personal protections? While pepper spray won't stop a crazy on pcp, it will in most cases stop or delay an attacker long enough for you to get away or get help. Also the chances of you being attacked in most public places are small, there is no need to carry that gun when you drive down to Frys or Best Buy. Avoid places where trouble might come looking for you and be alert when that isn't possible. I can't stop you from carrying a concealed weapon, but for the sake of those around you, make sure you have no other alternative to save a life when you draw that weapon.
Every year hundreds of childern are injured or killed because their parents left loaded firearms in the home. In many of those cases the guns were under lock and key, and in many of those cases the parents were at home when the accident happened. So when speaking of the safety of your family while at home remember that, and remember that any gun you can get to in time to protect yourself is also within reach of your childern and for your own sake please don't ever take your eyes off of them.
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Talorynn had this to say about pies:
For some people, it may seem a simple thing to take another life. It is made even simpler if that person means harm upon you, or those you love. But imagine it through the eyes of that persons mother..
It should never be "easy" to take anothers life. As a CCW holder it is somethign I fear. But there is an old saying.
"better judged by 12 then carried by 6" and I can tell you I agree with it.
Hell I would rather have my loved ones alive and hating me for killing someone. It is better than all of us being dead or worse.
Facts are facts. And the fact is that if something crazy were to happen I could defend myself and others.
What if I was at a resteraunt and someone came in shooting? Which would be better.
A: Hiding behi8nd a table wishing my gun was with me instead of locked up at home.
Or
B: Having my weapon with me and being able to return fire.
At best I take the SOB down.
At worse he wastes ammo shooting back at me and maybe, just maybe he loses his nerve and runs.
Ask people in Texas about this. It has happened. One young woman was not able to have her gun with her because the law did not allow it at the time. She lost both her parents. Instead of a knee jerk reaction she thought it through. She knew if she would have been able to have her weapon she may have been able to do something.
So she started a movement. The law was changed. And people in Texas can feel safe on the streets.
Indiana has one of the oldest and most lax CCW laws. Yet our crime rate is Nil.
Kentucky recently passed a CCW law. Crime dropped though the floor.
There have been I think two cases where something bad has happned. In one a guy was carrying before he got his permit and dropped the weapon. And I don't even remember the other. But I know neither of them ended in harm coming to anyone.
Washinton DC, LA, Chicago, and New york City have some of the tightest Gun laws in the Nation. Yet they also have the highest crime rates of any cities.
So you see, if this guy were a criminal, and he tried to mug you, rape you, murder you, or your family, I dont think "non-lethal deterants" would work well.
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First Dragon had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Pepper spray will work in most cases, but I have seen it be almost useless against some people. I saw this one guy on TV, Im sure some others saw it too, but he went insane basicly and dressed in full samuri armor, got a katana (I believe) and went out demanding "The Highlander". SWAT, police, and fire engines came by to stop him. First, they tried shooting him with bean bags guns. He took the blows, and continued demanding "The Highlander". They then shot him in the eyes with massive amounts of pepper spray, pepper spray in a fire extinguisher I believe. His face was red but he was still standing with his eyes open to almost full. They then needed the fire hoses. They sprayed one fire hose on him and he moved slowly but wouldnt fall, they needed 1 or 2 more hoses to take him down, they then pinned him with a ladder and arrested him.So you see, if this guy were a criminal, and he tried to mug you, rape you, murder you, or your family, I dont think "non-lethal deterants" would work well.
I remember seeing that. Freaky people out there. Most drugs will block out that sort of thing. There is a guy at Kieslers who can hold a Stun Gun to his body for about 30 seconds without flinching. he siad it hurts yes but it doens't bring him down or anything. We tried it on me. It hurt like hell and slowed me a little but I still had 95% function of my body. If I was attacking someone that used it on me It would not stop me at all. Adeneline would block it out.
I'm well aware of the massacure at the Lubbys in Killeen Texas. I grew up just on the other side of Fort Hood, I have an aunt who lost two dear friends and was shot herself at the incident.
It is in a situation like that where a person with a concealed handgun has a decision to make. First off there is a crazy who is shooting up the place, people included and now because you have a loaded weapon you have a decision to make. Do you lay low and wait or do you become a hero and open fire and hope that the only person you hit is the crazy. What do you do, a person could say that common sense dictated that since you are armed you take down the person shooting no matter the personal cost to yourself or to the others around you. If you happen to miss and kill an innocent while trying to take down the shooter so be it, it was the price you had to pay to save others lives. Someone else will say that common sense would dictate that even though you are armed, the situation is too volitile and dangerous to pull your weapon and open fire. The danger such an action to pose to people other than the attacker is too great, not to mention the danger to yourself. Play dead and wait for the pros to arrive, it's safer for everyone involved.
If you look at the situation in Killeen again and take note of exactly what happened. A man drove his truck through the front of a Lubby's, which was filled with mostly people age 55+, and starts to open fire. This goes on for almost 15 minutes before the police arrive and the situation is contained. 23 people are killed another 20 are wounded, in a situation like that another firearm and another shooter would have quite likely have ended with even more people dead and wounded.
Now ask me again if I'm willing to just trust those people with carrying concealed weapons in public can handle themselves in a crisis situation. The answer will still be no, I cannot trust that you will make the right decision and not kill me or my child by accident. [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Tyewa Dawnsister ]
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about dark elf butts:
Spew.
I'm still trying to understand your reasoning. I swear to god I'm trying, but it's so hard.
Are you assuming that every person with a concealed weapons permit is a complete idiot who has had no training or practice at hitting a human sized target? It sure sounds like it.
I'd like to hear your measures for protecting yourself in public places, and your house. Honestly, I would.
Ahh, nice edit there. Had to cover all the bases, eh?
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Now ask me again if I'm willing to just trust those people with carrying concealed weapons in public can handle themselves in a crisis situation. The answer will still be no, I cannot trust that you will make the right decision and not kill me or my child by accident.
I don't know how to respond to this. You must really hate people who stick up for themselves. [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: D ]
Now, to relate this. People, such as you, Tywea, are afraid of owning a gun for fear of harming themselves or those they love. But overcomming the fear can result in real safety, of yourself, those you love, and those around you.
I dont think this came out perfectly, but you get the picture.
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D stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
I'm still trying to understand your reasoning. I swear to god I'm trying, but it's so hard.Are you assuming that every person with a concealed weapons permit is a complete idiot who has had no training or practice at hitting a human sized target? It sure sounds like it.
I'd like to hear your measures for protecting yourself in public places, and your house. Honestly, I would.
Ahh, nice edit there. Had to cover all the bases, eh?
[QUOTE][qb]Now ask me again if I'm willing to just trust those people with carrying concealed weapons in public can handle themselves in a crisis situation. The answer will still be no, I cannot trust that you will make the right decision and not kill me or my child by accident.
I don't know how to respond to this. You must really hate people who stick up for themselves.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Greetings,
I'm going to try and make this easy for you as my intent is not to confuse. I contend that no matter how well trained, no matter how smart, no matter how well prepared you are for the event, if you pull a firearm and open fire in a public place you are risking lives. No matter your intention, no matter how intelligent you are, no matter how good your aim is, you are risking not only your life in pulling that weapon but the lives of everyone around you.
As for my own personal protection of my home and myself. All outside entrances to my home have a single sided deadbolt lock, which means that it cannot unlocked, picked, etc, from outside the home. All my downstairs windows are sealed and cannot be opened without completely tearing out the frame. I replaced my sliding glass back door with a normal frame door which also has a single sided dead bolt. No one is breaking into my house while I or my family is in it without me or someone else knowing about it long before they are a threat.
As for public protection, I carry a small bottle of pepper spray on my keychain (I accidently got the stuff on my hands one time, it's VILE), and (please don't laugh it's a good tool) I carry a whistle. =) I've also taken basic self defense classes at various times in my life (It was required by the High School I taught at in Colorado). But by far the most important thing I do is just pay attention, avoid situations where I might be alone and too far from help. I don't live my life in fear, but I don't take my saftey for granted.
I don't hate people who wish to protect themselves, I commend them for wanting to keep themselves and their family's safe. I do not believe firearms are the solution to their worries and that non leathal measures mixed with education, awareness, and reasonable preparation are far more humane and safe. With that I stand by the statment that concealed firearms are dangerous and reckless and that there are other, safer means of protecting yourself and your loved ones in public and at home.
Btw all I added with the edit was the last paragraph, I felt it was needed to push the point.
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about Pirotess:
As for my own personal protection of my home and myself. All outside entrances to my home have a single sided deadbolt lock, which means that it cannot unlocked, picked, etc, from outside the home. All my downstairs windows are sealed and cannot be opened without completely tearing out the frame. I replaced my sliding glass back door with a normal frame door which also has a single sided dead bolt. No one is breaking into my house while I or my family is in it without me or someone else knowing about it long before they are a threat.
That's well and good, I'd personally still feel safer with my firearms than with a house with so many security modifications. I don't trust many people or objects with my life, especially not deadbolts. I do, however, trust myself and my judgement. Along with my favorite pistol.
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Something else bashing people with concealed weapons.
"Lady, has it occured to you that anyone in the public could have a concealed weapon, be it a knife, gun, or tactical baton? Further, are you SERIOUSLY so naive as to fail to realize that those people who would use those weapons against you are NOT licensed and trained carriers?"
"What about a cop? Can you trust a cop? I hate to say it lady, but many civilians put themselves through more grueling training than the cops receive."
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As for public protection, I carry a small bottle of pepper spray on my keychain
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Azizza wrote this:
Freaky people out there. Most drugs will block out that sort of thing.
So, uhm, have fun I guess.
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You said:
Concealed weapons are reckless and dangerous, I know I cannot convince you but that doesn't change the fact. If you want to tote a gun in public, join the police force and get a good reason to do so.
He said:
"Whoa whoa whoa. Having an OPINION does not make it so, point a.
If it were a FACT, then it would be against the LAW.
Further, you failed to address my point - the people with legally concealed weapons want to HELP YOU. The ones without permits want to RAPE YOUR BABY."
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This goes on for almost 15 minutes before the police arrive and the situation is contained. 23 people are killed another 20 are wounded, in a situation like that another firearm and another shooter would have quite likely have ended with even more people dead and wounded.
In a situation like that another firearm and another shooter would have quite likely have ended with even more people dead and wounded...
What is this shit? 15 minutes - 20 people Dead.... If an armed citizen licenced or not had been there the perpitrator would of been dropped as soon as was possible, which by god would of been less than 15 minutes and 20 deaths. Even if Our "Hero" Had Killed up to 5 bystanders, (Which is HIGHLY improbable) look at the life that person would of saved. The only problem here is the spectulation involved... if there had been an armed person the Nightly news report may of been "5 Killed including Perp, Local Hero MAY of saved lives." But our hero wasnt present was he/she? 15 Minutes 20 Dead... Fuck That, Everyone Should be Trained and Armed, Then we all stand on even ground, and by God we will have a democracy. [ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Gork ]
You are either
A: A complete and total idiot.
B: Trully afraid of people willing to stand up for themselves.
or
C: SO afraid of Firearms in anyone elses hands but your own that you can't see the good they can do.. (This is called Elite-ism by the way.)
As for your defenses.
From what you described it would take me about 5-10 minutes of work to get through them. If you have an alarm you are a bit safer.. And hell if someone wants to kill or kidnap you they can smash and grab before anyone could react. ANd while you cower in the closet calling the police and pissing yourself your family is dead/gone.
Peperspay. Ahh how nice. Yeah it is so vile.. Wow big deal.. So they guy has watery stinging eyes for a while. You are still dead...
Your wistle. LOL nice. If you manage to get it out and use it then what? THe police come if you are lucky and call the coronor.
The more I read your post the more I come to the same conclusion.
You are an Idealist that thinks your way is the only way. You think everyone can be reasoned with and sitting a criminal down for a long chat will make it all better.
YOU are the one that is reckless and dangerous by giving yourself a very false sense of security and putting your family in danger by thinking that any of the measures you have mentioned would do damn thing to really keep you safe.
NO you should not carry a gun. You WOULD be more dangerous to yourself than anyone else. ANd if I may suggest.. Sell the ones you have and Join HCI..
See you THINK that people with CCW are more dangerous. What you fail to do is look at what really happens every day in the world and see that you are wrong. You can think whatever you want. That does not make it a fact.
(Harsh? Oh yeah. But sometimes people just dont' listen to the truth)
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First Dragon had this to say about Pirotess:
If someone were trying to attack me or my family and I had a firearm, I would not use it unless they were doing something serious. Guns are not lethal if you dont want them to be. I could shoot someone in the leg, and they more than likely would not die. Its not my choice to kill them, its their choice to die, its their choice to struggle for life, people can survive anything. People have been shot in the head, and gasp lived. People have fallen over a mile from a weather baloon I believe, and lived. Its no ones choice as to who lives and dies, except the person that needs to struggle.
SOrry gotta dissagree with you here buddy. It is all well and good to say that but once you are in the situation things really change. Your mind goes into overdrive.
All thoughts of "shooting them in the leg" goes otu the window.
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Gork had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Fuck That, Everyone Should be Trained and Armed, Then we all stand on even ground, and by God we will have a democracy.
No Gork that is what most people would call anarchy, which in some ways resembles democracy. I should also point out that the US is not a democracy, we are a republic, closer to Rome than to Athens.
I should also relate more to you of what happened at the Lubby's that day. Almost all of the shots fired happened in the first three minutes of the incident, only a handful of shots were fired afterwards. It is unlikely even an armed and trained person carrying a concealed weapon could have taken grasp of the situation and reacted to it within the first flurry of shooting. After the shooting stopped any attempt to agrivate the crazy would have ended with a lot more people dead.
In all I'm going to bed, I'll continue tomorrow if this remains open to discussion.
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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about pies:
\
I should also relate more to you of what happened at the Lubby's that day. Almost all of the shots fired happened in the first three minutes of the incident, only a handful of shots were fired afterwards. It is unlikely even an armed and trained person carrying a concealed weapon could have taken grasp of the situation and reacted to it within the first flurry of shooting. After the shooting stopped any attempt to agrivate the crazy would have ended with a lot more people dead.\.
THis shows your complete and total lack of Weapons knowlege/training. Anyone trained can take stock, draw, aim, and fire within a few moments. I have drawn dawn on someone before I even realised it.
Are you saying I would have been better off letting the guy just stab me? Because accourding to everything you have said, I should have just let the guy stab and rob me. Of course my reply to that is a big and loud Fuck you. My life is a hell of a lot more important to me than some punk trying to rob me.
I agree fully with the legal ability to carry a weapon. I live in a state with laws against it. I dont carry a gun.
Non-lethal deterrants.
Pepper Spray is shit. Any criminal who has been in the business long enough, has encountered this before, and is USED TO IT enough to beat your ass for using it, then rob/rape you.
If you want to go non-lethal, go with something with a bit more kick. REAL teargas. It requires a license. THis is because unlike those keychains, Tear gas, and REAL Mace work. If you can buy it in an auto parts store, dont trust your life on it.
And have you ever seen what a quality Taser can do? I dont mean a stun gun. I mean a Taser, shoots them little wires full of lightning. They CAN be lethal, cause sterility, blindness, deafness. THe effects of 120k volts is rather unpredictable. What makes it work is one of the definate effects. You CANT move. Your muscles tense and lock, your teeth grind together. your fists dont clench, you fall down, you hit hard.
unfortunately, a Taser is about as bad as a gun. If in the wrong hands, it can not only be used to rob people, and such, but it makes it easier. It can kill the victem, and can be used for torture.
There is no "Safe" answer. If it works, it CAN kill. IF it cant kill, theres no guarantee.
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Azizza had this to say about Optimus Prime:
[QB]I have drawn dawn on someone before I even realised it.
QB]
Greetings,
Thanks for proving my point, that is why concealed firearms should not be allowed. You apparently seem to feel that gun is just something to intimidate a would be attacker. That just isn't right, that gun is made to kill, not to deter. Did you shoot the man you drew that gun on, did you intend to shoot him? Or did you just react without thinking of what your reckless action might cause. You NEVER EVER esclate violence in a confrontation, you are just asking to get yourself or someone else killed. If the mugger just wanted your wallet, let him have it and get away. The 40$ you carry on you is not worth your life, or his life for that matter.
I am very aware on the training and use of firearms. While it is true that for a person standing, can unholster a firearm, clear the saftey, aim, and fire off a round accuratly at a stationary target within 2 or 3 seconds, that ideal situation is not going to happen in practical use. Let's use the Lubby's example. The shooter drove his truck into the front of the store showering the place with shattered glass. He then exited and started shooting at anything he saw moving, he was alert and intent on that action. You would not have been able to climb up off the floor, draw, aim, and fire before you were noticed and fired at. You would not have been able to reposition yourself to gain an advantage, he would not have remained standing still, you would have been at a disadvantage from the start. As you can see no, one no matter the training or natural ability, could have improved the situation by drawing a firearm and exchanging gunfire in this crowded room full of scared and injured people.
Pepper spray is very effective, there is no "getting used to it". If exposed to the eyes it will cause massive burning and tear duct production, prolonged exposure can cause permenant damage to the eyes. Skin exposure will cause instant burning and prolonged exposure will cause skin blisters. The stuff is truely vile and dangerous, and if you think people "in the business" can just "get used to it" you watch to many movies. At the very least it will give you valuable seconds to get away, draw attention to yourself, or in any other way avoid escalting the violence of the situation. Make fun of my whistle if you will, but it's probably one of the most effective deterants to random petty thief. Men it seem never take personal defense seriously, it's always fight back instead of defend. Some of the most effective things you can do to protect yourself are simple and non violent. Such as the whistle, simply drawing attention to yourself is such a powerful tool in preventing violence. Oh and the stuff on my keychain is police grade, and I do have a permit to carry and use it, it didn't come from a hardware store.
In closing, I once considered putting in an electronic security device in my home. I called Brinks out and they did a survey, he told me flat out I didn't need one. I believe his exact words were, "No one is getting into your house unless you open the door for them." I took that at face value, is there any reason I shouldn't have?
ooOOOOooo I can't believe I just said that...
The phrase with which you've chosen this opportunity to quibble is a prime example of good training, rather than the thoughtless public menace you choose to paint it. If you had the least bit of actual knowledge of the subject, you'd realize that.
When driving on the freeway, for example, and the car in front of you loses control, you'd best swerve to avoid it without thinking: the action should be second nature. Stopping to think about it would, in fact, be dangerous and lead to an accident that well-honed reflexes would have averted.
That's what the training is for, you see.
Nor is it your place to decide for someone else that they should stand by passively and be robbed. I know it grieves you, but self-defense is a right in this country, as is armed resistance in areas that allow concealed weapons carry.
If, as you say, CCW laws endanger the populace, and strict gun laws are the answer, why don't you explain for the class why--as someone else brought up--the cities with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest crime rates in the nation?
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
(before you argue, this is not always true... crimes etc. but then it is the majority which rules, no?)
That's irrational.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
