quote:

---

Lyinar had this to say about Duck Tales:
And Solstyce just added herself to the "I don't feel like arguing it, so nobody else gets the right to either and you are all stupid because you don't see things exactly as I do" group

---

Aren't you forgetting to put yourself there?
Her argument is that this is a moot point, along with mine and BW's. You're calling for us to stop.

Pot meet kettle.

motsly it si mp3s and cds and how too maek m oney in 45983853948 easy steps?!?!?2 HOWEVAR tihngs liek E BOOKS POPS UP OENCE IN A WHIAL!!!@

howevar ebooks si not vary freuqnet i tried too look fors an ebook on the GRINCH WOH STOEL CHRISTMAS(WHICh si a vary good book!@) AND I COULds not fiend it!!!!11 so oh wael i bought the book it wae smoer rewarding

SO IN CLONCLUSION I Tihnk yuo shoulds buy the boeok at the stoer becuase it si a MEMORY TAHT LASTS A LIEFTIEM!@222

and oen day yuo will be packings up all of yuor bookes when yuo aer MOVING OUT and yuo will see the book and say "I REMEMBAR WHEN I BOUGHT theSI BOOK WHEN I WAS ON A CAMPING TRIP AND GOT ATEN BY A Bear' and yuo will reads it and the mmeoories will coem FLUSHING BACK!!

so maek sure too buy books and do not ues EBOOKS!!!!!2

tahnk yuo

quote:

---

Lyinar impressed everyone with:
And Solstyce just added herself to the "I don't feel like arguing it, so nobody else gets the right to either and you are all stupid because you don't see things exactly as I do" group

---

quote:

---

Pot meet kettle.

---

And thus, Lyinar posts the strong opposing argument...?

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Black Wizard ]

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about Robocop:
But that's just you--and you say that only because making music isn't your livlihood.

Now what if you were trying to make music for a living, and you got jack for royalties because everyone stole your albums rather than buying them? And your record label dropped you because CD sales were abysmal?

---

Flipside to this.. My future father-in-law does music as his livlihood and he supports places like napster.. why? He gets more exposure as well as letting him discover royalties he never knew he had. Point in case.. after he married KaL's mom, she went through napster to research a song he wrote to see what sorta hits she got for looking it up.. some may know it.. some may not.. "Show Me Heaven" from the movie Days of Thunder. She found so many versions of that song sung that he didnt even know about and helped him bring it to the attention of ASCAP so that the money that these new versions on CD's and whatnot could be added onto his royalty checks that he gets now.

For myself, I use it mostly for exposure.. heck songs that I have downloaded from Audiogalaxy and played while my friend has been here has lead to him buying a CD with that song on it only days later. *smiles*

There's no logical connection between something being wrong and illegal, but very hard to police, and making it legal.

Speeding is like that. You can't stop it all of the time, but you can write tickets occasionally and set random speed traps to keep the behavior from getting out of control.

Frankly, the thing that pisses me off is that, because of all the thieves stealing music, the industry is leaping toward all sorts of technologies that make it difficult for me, a law-abiding citizen, to enjoy my rights. That's the true downside for all of society: we get to put up with further inconveniences because a bunch of spoiled people want to steal music.

Simply arguing that it's hard or impossible to stop doesn't make a case for legalizing the behavior. Theft is theft. It's all illegal, and it's all wrong. You can't build a society where theft isn't considered a crime. Differences in scale are accounted for already--that's why we have misdemeanors and felonies.

quote:

---

Black Wizard had this to say about Reading Rainbow:

---

quote:

---

[qb]Pot meet kettle.

---

So we're back to a double standards issue, then? It's all right for you to call someone's post pointless, but it's not all right for me to say the same of the post of the person calling someone else's post pointless?

There's nothing dealing with a "Moral Highground" at all. You three are trying to make a decision for everyone else. Who put you in charge? And why should you be able to hound others that their posts are pointless, they shouldn't be debating it, they need to shut up, blah blah blah, when you aren't subject to the same yourselves?

Have you suddenly become special members of this board and we all must bow down to you and do everything you say, regardless of how we feel on something?

quote:

---

Kagrama stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
FIAL SHARING si wehn yuo SHAER FIALS OVAR the INTERNET!!@@

motsly it si mp3s and cds and how too maek m oney in 45983853948 easy steps?!?!?2 HOWEVAR tihngs liek E BOOKS POPS UP OENCE IN A WHIAL!!!@

howevar ebooks si not vary freuqnet i tried too look fors an ebook on the GRINCH WOH STOEL CHRISTMAS(WHICh si a vary good book!@) AND I COULds not fiend it!!!!11 so oh wael i bought the book it wae smoer rewarding

SO IN CLONCLUSION I Tihnk yuo shoulds buy the boeok at the stoer becuase it si a MEMORY TAHT LASTS A LIEFTIEM!@222

and oen day yuo will be packings up all of yuor bookes when yuo aer MOVING OUT and yuo will see the book and say "I REMEMBAR WHEN I BOUGHT theSI BOOK WHEN I WAS ON A CAMPING TRIP AND GOT ATEN BY A Bear' and yuo will reads it and the mmeoories will coem FLUSHING BACK!!

so maek sure too buy books and do not ues EBOOKS!!!!!2

tahnk yuo

---

COMIC RELIEF!!

Kagrama saves the day!

quote:

---

Bloodsage wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Karnaj,

There's no logical connection between something being wrong and illegal, but very hard to police, and making it legal.

Speeding is like that. You can't stop it all of the time, but you can write tickets occasionally and set random speed traps to keep the behavior from getting out of control.

Frankly, the thing that pisses me off is that, because of all the thieves stealing music, the industry is leaping toward all sorts of technologies that make it difficult for me, a law-abiding citizen, to enjoy my rights. That's the true downside for all of society: we get to put up with further inconveniences because a bunch of spoiled people want to steal music.

Simply arguing that it's hard or impossible to stop doesn't make a case for legalizing the behavior. Theft is theft. It's all illegal, and it's all wrong. You can't build a society where theft isn't considered a crime. Differences in scale are accounted for already--that's why we have misdemeanors and felonies.

---

Whoah whoah whoah.

I usually agree with ya Sage. But...How is this Illegal? Has the house passed legislation BANNING file sharing?

Um..no.

SOME may think it is Illegal, but, it's not really. It's a matter of opinion. And, before you post

"Well, why don't you just say speeding is a matter of opinion too according to your logic" , let me inform you that that is not what I am saying, because speeding is actually a CRIME. Which is in a book somewhere that it IS illegal.

quote:

---

Kagrama had this to say about Cuba:
Kagramassessment

---

I love you.

quote:

---

Lyinar had this to say about (_|_):
So we're back to a double standards issue, then? It's all right for you to call someone's post pointless, but it's not all right for me to say the same of the post of the person calling someone else's post pointless?

---

quote:

---

There's nothing dealing with a "Moral Highground" at all.

---

quote:

---

You three are trying to make a decision for everyone else. Who put you in charge?

---

quote:

---

And why should you be able to hound others that their posts are pointless, they shouldn't be debating it, they need to shut up, blah blah blah, when you aren't subject to the same yourselves?

---

quote:

---

Have you suddenly become special members of this board and we all must bow down to you and do everything you say, regardless of how we feel on something?

---

quote:

---

Black Wizard had this to say about pies:
Now now children, calm down. As much as you'd all like to flock beind Lyinar now, and call me out for saying, 'Fuck you, Drysart lock this thread', I never did. Your arguement is flawed, and incorrect. I myself deemed this debate idiotic, because in truth, there's not a damned thing you can make [us] do to stop burning mp3s(if [we] wish). I then replied to some of [your] posts, to which I've gotten no concrete reply back, except, 'Let people talk, now shut up'.

---

Child? Bite me.

All you've said is the oh-so-logical-and-mature, "I don't care if I'm a thief: what are you going to do about it?! Fuck you!"

Sorry if I didn't feel that warranted a response. Actually, no I'm not.

Synjari,

Arguing through testimonial is not a sound way to shape public policy. A certain few may benefit from the exposure--but only if people go out and buy the music. Check Drysart's figures for how often that really happens. Others, however, lose millions.

Theft is bad.

If your musician needs exposure, he can release a song free on the net. There are many legal solutions to publicity problems.

quote:

---

Kagrama wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
FIAL SHARING si wehn yuo SHAER FIALS OVAR the INTERNET!!@@

motsly it si mp3s and cds and how too maek m oney in 45983853948 easy steps?!?!?2 HOWEVAR tihngs liek E BOOKS POPS UP OENCE IN A WHIAL!!!@

howevar ebooks si not vary freuqnet i tried too look fors an ebook on the GRINCH WOH STOEL CHRISTMAS(WHICh si a vary good book!@) AND I COULds not fiend it!!!!11 so oh wael i bought the book it wae smoer rewarding

SO IN CLONCLUSION I Tihnk yuo shoulds buy the boeok at the stoer becuase it si a MEMORY TAHT LASTS A LIEFTIEM!@222

and oen day yuo will be packings up all of yuor bookes when yuo aer MOVING OUT and yuo will see the book and say "I REMEMBAR WHEN I BOUGHT theSI BOOK WHEN I WAS ON A CAMPING TRIP AND GOT ATEN BY A Bear' and yuo will reads it and the mmeoories will coem FLUSHING BACK!!

so maek sure too buy books and do not ues EBOOKS!!!!!2

tahnk yuo

---

Actually, from what I read of e-books, most distributors charge you to download the book anyway. You have the subscription cost for the service itself, then you pay a certain price per book that you receive.

Unless there are other sorts of distributors out there I don't know about. I've only heard of the subscription ones, and here and there where you can get entire copies of books online, if they're something like The Arabian Knights or a Dickens novel or such. I actually once downloaded a copy of Great Expectations for what reason I don't recall now. I've never seen anything new available.

quote:

---

Lyinar had this to say about Cuba:
Actually, from what I read of e-books, most distributors charge you to download the book anyway. You have the subscription cost for the service itself, then you pay a certain price per book that you receive.

---

then why wuold yuo downloads the book when yuo can get a SUPER DUPER NEW FRESH PRINT COPY FROEM the BOOK STOER!/1

it dosant maek senseseseses

Wherever did you get the idea that pirating music or software was legal?

I have to admit that's the first I've heard of that particular novelty. Have you read any of the lisence agreements to your software? Music is the same, although you are allowed to copy your music for personal use (but not to give away), and there is a lot of legal precedent behind it.

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about dark elf butts:
Child? Bite me.

All you've said is the oh-so-logical-and-mature, "I don't care if I'm a thief: what are you going to do about it?! Fuck you!"

Sorry if I didn't feel that warranted a response. Actually, no I'm not.

Synjari,

Arguing through testimonial is not a sound way to shape public policy. A certain few may benefit from the exposure--but only if people go out and buy the music. Check Drysart's figures for how often that really happens. Others, however, lose millions.

Theft is bad.

If your musician needs exposure, he can release a song free on the net. There are many legal solutions to publicity problems.

---

Im not only talking about the exposure thing.. Napster helped them find other versions of the same song that they wouldnt have otherwise found. Its the availability of being able to do search like that to find more obscure bands who are selling cd's using your song.

quote:

---

Kagrama had this to say about pies:

then why wuold yuo downloads the book when yuo can get a SUPER DUPER NEW FRESH PRINT COPY FROEM the BOOK STOER!/1

it dosant maek senseseseses

---

Ease

They can dl it to their system and can store more than one book in the space that one book would take up. They're still paying for it, just getting another version of it, if you will.

As a "backup" copy?

I mean, who says Napster wasn't made as a way for a couple of friends to trade backups of songs between eachother.

And I suppose the bottom line of this would be

File Sharing=

Pros:

Exposure
Listening to a new sound/style
Hearing a new band

Cons:

Supposedly takes money away ( )
Um...err...long d/l times?

quote:

---

Peachis had this to say about Pirotess:
We just can't have nice things....

---

**SIGH** were did we go wrong with them? We raised them best as we could and this is what happens. Well guess we need to start all over.
**winks suggestively**

quote:

---

Bloodsage stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Child? Bite me.

---

quote:

---

All you've said is the oh-so-logical-and-mature, "I don't care if I'm a thief: what are you going to do about it?! Fuck you!"

---

Sorry if that stings a little. It usually does on your first time.

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Black Wizard ]

I'm not advocating making it legal. I'm sorry if that was unclear. What I'm advocating is simple: can we stop it?

Realistically, can we? Aside from following the example of upstanding citizens like yourself (and I mean that with absolutely no sarcasm; you seem to be a law-abiding citizen for the most part, and I respect the hell outta you for that), what can be done? The technology is too widespread.

It's akin to the government saying "Let's stop terrorism" after 90% of the population has sided with, and aided the opposing terrorist faction.

If it was going to be stopped, it had to be nipped in the bud. The compression technology had to be squelched. And it wasn't. So we have it.

Does it mean just because we have something, we should use it? Certainly not. We have a rather imposing nuclear arsenal. Do we use it? No. Should we? Never.

That's a bit extreme, I know, but the concept is applicable in this case. The technology is here. Short of revolutionary measures, it won't go away. A minority elects to oppose it. The majority elects to support it. Even though the majority is wrong, they have effective control. It will take (again) revolutionary measures to remove that control or ability from the majority. It's simply not feasible.

Like it or lump it, I submit that MP3 trading is here to stay.

quote:

---

Lyinar had this to say about Punky Brewster:

They can dl it to their system and can store more than one book in the space that one book would take up. They're still paying for it, just getting another version of it, if you will.

---

btu downloadeds books si not QUALITY!!11

i maen how do yuo gets the enjoyment of sitang around a fiar with a good book about jonny fighting the spaec marshmellows and drinking hot chocolates by raeding it on a computar?!!?1 yuo cants!!!

taht si why the writtan books si bettar for buying

quote:

---

Kameks had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
**SIGH** were did we go wrong with them? We raised them best as we could and this is what happens. Well guess we need to start all over.
**winks suggestively**

---

I got this one covered Peachis.

No. Just... No.

Uh, isn't selling a CD using someone else's song illegal? So your argument is we need to allow people to steal music freely so we have a place to search when we want to catch people stealing?

Again, if I understand the situation you present, that would seem to be an uncommon case, and hardly justify the millions of revenue lost in other areas.

Not to mention the fact that stealing is bad.

No one's even bothered to explain how stealing is ever a good thing. All we get are variations on the theme of "they can't catch me, so who cares?"

quote:

---

Black Wizard had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
[QUOTE]Bloodsage stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
[qb]Child? Bite me.

---

quote:

---

All you've said is the oh-so-logical-and-mature, "I don't care if I'm a thief: what are you going to do about it?! Fuck you!"

---

Sorry if that stun a little. It usually does on your first time.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Jeesh BW, take it easy. That was a little harsh, no?

This is just a debate, people are usually allowed to have opposing views.

Take a pill labled chill

quote:

---

Skaw had this to say about Tron:
I got this one covered Peachis.

No. Just... No.

---

Once you've had troll you NEVER GO BACK

quote:

---

We were all impressed when Kagrama wrote:
btu downloadeds books si not QUALITY!!11

i maen how do yuo gets the enjoyment of sitang around a fiar with a good book about jonny fighting the spaec marshmellows and drinking hot chocolates by raeding it on a computar?!!?1 yuo cants!!!

taht si why the writtan books si bettar for buying

---

Sure they are. It's the words, not the format that matterss.

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about Punky Brewster:
Synjari,

Uh, isn't selling a CD using someone else's song illegal? So your argument is we need to allow people to steal music freely so we have a place to search when we want to catch people stealing?

---

She said, Due to music sharing, they were able to find illegal productions of an already done song, and got money(Royalties) from it.

quote:

---

Lyinar had this to say about tacos:
Sure they are. It's the words, not the format that matterss.

---

yeas but takings a laptopt too the fiar isant the saem/

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about Tron:
Synjari,

Uh, isn't selling a CD using someone else's song illegal? So your argument is we need to allow people to steal music freely so we have a place to search when we want to catch people stealing?

Again, if I understand the situation you present, that would seem to be an uncommon case, and hardly justify the millions of revenue lost in other areas.

Not to mention the fact that stealing is bad.

No one's even bothered to explain how stealing is ever a good thing. All we get are variations on the theme of "they can't catch me, so who cares?"

---

Only a few people have actually said a variation of "They can't catch me, so who cares?"

Not everyone has that view. I still fail to see how getting files off of a file sharing program is stealing. YOU didn't steal the files, someone else did, how are you to know? Maybe THEY bought the cd, shared the files.

I maybe would have NEVER, EVER have liked Reel Big Fish without hearing them on napster first. And I didn't steal crap. I simply downloaded something someone else had posted. THEY stole...not mwah.

And also, look at it this way, what if you CAN'T find a song.

Say an oldies song, or a song done by an Orchestra, or an import. Do you think -1 record sale is gonna affect a Japanese company that produces the soundtrack for an anime made in Japan? NO

And what if the song is so damn good that I need to see them in concert? 2 Concert tickets (me + friend/date/whatever) = more then a CD sale.

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: The Otaku Penguin ]

Not talking about swimming in an Egyptian river, either.

Same thing with the Gorrilaz CD.

As I stated in page one, I'm lucky to have a sister who married a guy with a 20,000+ CD collection.
Very very interesting music.. He even copied me a CD of Weird Al's Running with Scissors album, with a few extra tracks (The night santa went crazy, extra gorey version! ), but since nobody but me has played the CD, and I didnt rip the tracks and shoot 'em off to all my friends, I didnt steal, did I?

Oh! To be part of this thread you must make a personal attack on someone...

Peachis! .. Uhmm.. Your boobs are too nice! You must deform them or something to make all the other women feel better!

HUMOR DISCLAIMER

When you say something along the lines of an actual argument in favor of your chosen behavior, give a holler and I'll reply. If you're comfy being a thief, fine, but don't expect the rest of society to approve.

And don't worry that anything said on a message board can hurt my feelings. I kill people and break things for a living (okay, now I just make plans for others to kill people and break things), so I'm not exactly the sensitive type.

Karnaj,

Yeah, current technology hasn't kept pace with the pirates. But that doesn't mean we should quit trying. It's a cyclical thing, really.

Actuallly, the real social impact is from the odd notion that stealing or lying is okay as long as there's not much chance of getting caught. That's bad. Should I have to worry that the pilot of that airplane I'm taking home for Christmas doesn't believe drugs are bad, and chooses to assert his "right" to get high? Should I have to worry about the credentials of anyone I do business with, since it's becoming vogue to falsify degrees?

It's all part and parcel of this odd notion that honesty has no value any more. That it's not okay to have reasonable standards of behavior in society. You see it with the whiney roleplayers in EQ and DAoC, who want some kind of reward before they'll roleplay--whatever happened to doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do? None of this, "I can't roleplay, because no one gives me a cookie when I do," crap.

Sorry, BW et al, but people who do the right thing just because it's the right thing are better than those who lie or steal whenever it's convenient and they think they won't get caught.

TOP,

Um, your buds sharing "backup copies" are breaking the law. You are allowed to make backup copies only for personal use.

You should look into copyright law a little bit. Not a slam, but rather an observation.

Trading music is not legal. If you want an MP3 of a song, you must obtain the song legally first. It's not that hard.

quote:

---

Bloodsage stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
No one's even bothered to explain how stealing is ever a good thing. All we get are variations on the theme of "they can't catch me, so who cares?"

---

Now, here's where you tell me how hot it's going to be in hell.

quote:

---

BW,
When you say something along the lines of an actual argument in favor of your chosen behavior, give a holler and I'll reply. If you're comfy being a thief, fine, but don't expect the rest of society to approve.

---

Honestly, there was nothing here to debate in the first place. Simply put, people are still going to rip mp3s. What are you going to do to stop them?

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Black Wizard ]

Instead of thinking, 'Oh, no, it's another flame war, everyone's going to get all tense and hate each other again!'

I'm going to think, 'Oh, look, it's another flame war!' and sit back and wait for Kagrama to make the whole thing funny.