After reading my first post (Trendy Ethicist, blah blah blah, boot to the head, yakkity shmakkity), I noticed I came across as very accusatory and downright mean.
Which I didn't mean to do.
And I can't edit the post now, gr.
So while I still stand by everything I said, if anyone got offended by it (you in particular, Fennar), sorry about that.
[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: DarkDragoon ]
I'm personally glad the US is taking a more humanitarian approach, now that they've seen that missle crash into the home of an innocent. I guess that somehow turned into a good thing after all- Less innocent casualties.
The Taliban? Arrest them. Kill them. Shoot them in the groin. Use their bodies for target practice. Kill a few, stuff 'em with grenades, and throw them into the base. I don't care.
But the second an innocent on either side is hurt... That's the problem with war. You can never go after just the soldiers and military, or in this case, terrorist organization- Sooner or later, innocents will get caught in the crossfire.
As for feelings when the attack started, I'll admit, I felt something. I wasn't all boo-hoo, but I did feel sad. Depressed, even. It wasn't the death toll that made me feel that way. 5000 is just a number. The thing that depressed me was all those people were just that- People. They had consciences, they had feelings, they had loved ones. They had lives. And now, they've been killed by some terrorist organization that flew planes into the place where they worked.
Nonetheless, I'm not as blind as the ones who think we should lob all of our nukes over to Afghanistan. For every member of the Taliban, there are probably 5 innocent people who have no part in this war.
The initial incident taught me one important life lesson that most people never learn in their lives- Life is the most frail thing on the planet. At any moment, you could lose it. So basically, live life to the fullest, or you just might miss the opportunity to.
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DarkDragoon had this to say about Tron:
if your reason was that (for real now) you couldn't kill for religious/ethical reasons, then I understand. remeber though, if you believe this. then you can not be hypocritical, else it destroys the validity of the argument.
*shrugs and expects flames*
No flames here. I actually agree with this statement. But as you stated. It must be true to your heart. Not some Bullshit to get out of the draft. Also remember that Alvin York originally tried to avoid the draft because of religious reasons. For him it was in his heart that he could not take a life. Untill he realised that sometimes you must fight to be free and carry on with your beliefs.
And he is now considered a Hero amung heros.
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Ruvyen Warblade had this to say about pies:
I just have one thing to say about this war at the moment.I'm personally glad the US is taking a more humanitarian approach, now that they've seen that missle crash into the home of an innocent. I guess that somehow turned into a good thing after all- Less innocent casualties.
The Taliban? Arrest them. Kill them. Shoot them in the groin. Use their bodies for target practice. Kill a few, stuff 'em with grenades, and throw them into the base. I don't care.
But the second an innocent on either side is hurt... That's the problem with war. You can never go after just the soldiers and military, or in this case, terrorist organization- Sooner or later, innocents will get caught in the crossfire.
As for feelings when the attack started, I'll admit, I felt something. I wasn't all boo-hoo, but I did feel sad. Depressed, even. It wasn't the death toll that made me feel that way. 5000 is just a number. The thing that depressed me was all those people were just that- People. They had consciences, they had feelings, they had loved ones. They had lives. And now, they've been killed by some terrorist organization that flew planes into the place where they worked.
Nonetheless, I'm not as blind as the ones who think we should lob all of our nukes over to Afghanistan. For every member of the Taliban, there are probably 5 innocent people who have no part in this war.
The initial incident taught me one important life lesson that most people never learn in their lives- Life is the most frail thing on the planet. At any moment, you could lose it. So basically, live life to the fullest, or you just might miss the opportunity to.
You've just saved me from making a "people are broken" post, pat yourself on the back 
No wonder you're so adamant that there's no such thing as a stupid opinion. You'd be up shit creek if there was, wouldn't you?
Just by way of example, why don't you tell the class where you got your casualty figures for the '98 strike on the Sudanese pharmaceutical factory? Even the Sudanese never claimed nearly that number.
By way of comparison, moron, 10,000 casualties is the estimated figure for Iraqi soldiers during all of DESERT STORM. The two events hardly compare in scope, duration, or ferocity.
And, pray tell, why is it okay for them to kill innocent Americans--illegally by every concevable standard--but not okay to persue lawful means of retaliation?
But thanks for the undeniable, unambiguous, and unmistakable proof that some opinions are just plain stupid.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
If you didn't feel anything because your mind just doesn't compute that kind of event, then you are not a bad person. I myself couldn't feel anything at first, I just couldn't get my brain around it. Then, something made me connect the memories of my little nephiew with the deaths. The thought of losing HIM, of his family having lost him, THAT made me realize just what had happened. I was fighting tears back all day at work after that.
If you feel nothing because you just don't care, you may be a bad person, I can't tell. However, you ARE sick. Mentally ill. If you have reached a point where you can't associate a value with the lives of others, you need help. Get it, before you do something very bad.
As to dodging the draft? Dodge to save your soul=good. Dodge to save your ass=bad.
Sounds like alot, dosent it?
but just think about how many people die everyday in car crashs, of old age, from slipping on a bar of soap, etc....
the only diffrence bewtween the people who died by slipping on a bar of soap is that they just happend to go out with a bang.
as for them all dieing at once, how many died when we nuked Japan?
Sig pic done with Microsoft paint, Work that doobie Pikachu.
quote:
We were all impressed when Kameks wrote:
[5,000 people died. Some of these were children less then a year old, tourists who were there for a day just seeing the sights.
I point to my post about us nukeing Japan.
Keep in mind that we chose civilian targets, so it would make a bigger impression on the Jap goverment.
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You trivialize their deaths and fight for a peaceful resolution in the middle east.
I never said that.
Osma is go far gone into his fantasys to ever lisen to reason.
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I think of you all i feel is pity. Pity for your twisted view on death. Pity for your belief that a heatless terrorist will suddenly decide he's wrong and stop.
Show me where I said that.
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I Pity for your cowaredice in dodging a draft that might be reinstated. I think of you all i feel is pity.
When have I ever said I wasent a coward?
(I dont think I would be able to serve if I wanted to, but thats not the point.)
It should also be noted that they now have proof that the Japanese had a near working prototype of a Nuke that the Germans gave them just before thier surrender. If we had waited much longer.... Well it could have been us.
That was a war.. Plain and simple. You win a War by doing two things. Destroying an army, and killing the peoples willingness to fight.
We were not at war with anyone when they crashed planes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians.
I'm not going to ramble. That never helps. My opinions are my own and, while I'm free to say them, I've got no right to beleive that my opinions are or should be the opinions of others. You, however, are guilty of that crime. I neither fear nor give weight to your insults; I'd make a pretty good punching bag anyway. But I'm going to say all my good conscience will allow without me exploding.
Please shut the fuck up.
Thank you.
I have never said otherwise.
But more then that, I donÂ’t think I could live with myself if I killed someone just because I was told to.
And I know that he would shoot me if I didnÂ’t shoot him first.
However, I am glad that there are people who want to fight.
And Azizza, just be quiet, m-kay? I'm not about to change my whole thought process just because you say that I'm a very bad person.
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Solstyce impressed everyone with:
I've got no right to beleive that my opinions are or should be the opinions of others. You, however, are guilty of that crime.Thank you.
I never said he or anyone else had to hold the same opinions I do. I did state that he has a duty to uphold. It is a part of living in this country. If he is to much of a chicken shit to live up to that duty then he will get what he deserves. Simple as that. You can read whatever you want into what I say I really don't care.
1. The Sudanese plant was an accident. But there weren't numbers that high. Sage is right. By the way for one cruise missile to take out that many people, it'd have to be in a hyper-dense area of territory. A cruise missile in Manhattan, for instance. Last I checked most of Sudan wasn't what we'd call "hyper-industrialized".
2. Terrorism = Evil. Al Quaida and company are terrorists. Organized, efficient, bloodthirsty terrorists. Yes they are. They're so rabid that old-school terrorists like Yasir Arafat and Qadafi, both of whom I might point out are Muslims, have denounced them. Terrorism can be a powerful tool, evil or not. Sometimes it's the only tool you have...you make some noise to bring attention to your cause. Arafat and Qadafi's type was harsh and brutal and it brought attention, but they never did what Bin Ladin did. They're certainly not heroes, but compared to Bin Ladin they were just rowdy activists. What Bin Ladin did was much much worse.
3. Popular Ethics. This is the catch point. Fennar brought up some interesting points. Yes. Thousands of people die in car accidents. Even assuming we cut out the people killed by drunk drivers (which is illegal and which is something the government is working to stop) and freak accidents (your breaks suddenly not responding), there are a lot of accidents and deaths. The difference between their deaths and the death of people at the WTC is that when they got in their car, they understood the laws. If they choose to break them, then they know the consequences. If you get in a car you know there is a moderately even chance you'll get into an accident sometime in your life. No one, however, should live their life thinking "gee should I go in to work today? Some jackass might ram the building with a 747" People have something of a social contract. People are willing to have a certain amount of acceptable carnage in their lives, be it car accidents or lung cancer from cigarettes. When the public willingness shifts (as it has for smoking), then it gets weeded out. Nowhere in the social contract, however, is there any acceptable level for mass murder, acts of war, etc. And there shouldn't be. Comparing car accidents to an act of terrorism, in other words, is dumb. They're two very disparate elements. Note I didn't say Fennar was dumb, just that sort of comparison.
4. The draft. Okay...my personal take is that I don't want to be in the military. I've heard the offers made, I took the ASVAB, I listened, but none of those appealed to me. I'm grateful to those people who join the military willingly and are willing to make a career, however short, of keeping my interests safe from hostile military forces. I don't respect, however, these little weasels trying to get out of the military now on the grounds that they were recruited under false pretenses, or those who want out on a "Conscientious Objection" clause. It ain't summer camp, folks. If you can't realistically perceive things, then don't waste everyone's time.
That having been said...I'm like a few other folks on the board. I'm madly in love, I have plans for my future, and most of all...I DON'T WANT TO DIE! I don't want to be a martyr for my beliefs. I think someone who wants to die is a screwball!
BUT! If I'm drafted, you can be damned sure I'd go. I wouldn't want to, I'd hate every minute of it, I'd hate it if I had to kill someone, and I'd REALLY hate it if someone killed me...but I'd go. It's okay to not want to do something...but there are some things you have to do whether you like it or not because it's the right thing to do. It can be something as huge as joining the army to something as simple as giving blood. Prior to Sept 11, I hadn't given blood in several years due to a bad experience the last time I went. But I bit the bullet and went and gave blood and I will again when I can again. I don't like it, but I'll do it. That's just the way it is sometimes. It's okay to be scared, it's okay to not want to give your all, or put your plans on hold. I'm sure all the brave men and women who've died for their beliefs in the past didn't want to. I think that's the largest unspoken truth there is...but it's part of your responsibility as a person. When it comes to it, and there's no other option, fight for what you believe. There isn't a religion on the planet that at some time or another hasn't stood up for what they believe. The fortunate few exist in countries where they don't have to wage war to stand up for what they believe. But all the major religions have waged war, have taken up arms. So in my opinion, basis of religion isn't really entirely valid. But that's a different argument.
So...do I think Fennar is evil? No. Selfish? Yeah, but that's okay. Unrealistic? Yes.
So on the whole does that make Fennar bad? Makes him immature, and immaturity at the wrong time is Bad.
Oh...and Nekai. Not only is Nekai bad, but his source information is screwy.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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As I said in IRC:
<Densetsu> I don't want to fight. I've found true love, something that is the only constant in my life. It's unconditional, it will last forever. Call me a hopeless romantic, but it's what I believe. I would not want to give that up for anything.
<Densetsu> I realize that being in this country has given me the means to finding it
<Densetsu> but the odds of my being killed, vs. the odds of America losing, are VERY far apart...with the lower numbers being toward the first
<Densetsu> if it were a few years down the road, maybe. I haven't even gotten to hold her in my arms yet
<Densetsu> I don't want to die without ever knowing that
<Densetsu> call me unamerican, call me unpatriotic, hell, even call me inhuman
<Densetsu> it won't change the way I feel
Call me a coward, I don't care.
I haven't lived my life, my life has just begun. I've been 18 for less than 2 months. I've never kissed, I've never had sex, I've saved those for the woman I intend to spend my entire life with. I am not the type to "Try before you buy". I don't have to have sex with someone to know that I can't stand them, that I don't love them. But I've found her. I've just begun my life, and you're asking me to give it up without ever living it.
A couple years down the road, if there is a draft, will I go? Maybe. If there is a draft right now, will i go? No.
If someone comes up to threaten the woman I love directly, will I fight them? Yes.
Call me any names you like, throw any insults at me you want, but I don't want to defend something that I never had.
Secondly: America has over one million troops, trained to fight and kill. In Afganistan, they have their troops able to survive in a hot envoriment with little food and water, in bare feet. LA DE DA! American troops are trained to do even more than that. In a one on one battle between an Afgan militant and a U.S. Marine, the Marine would kill the militant. You would need 5 militants to take one marine down, i'm sure. (maybe i'm wrong, but I think it's close).
Americans troops are better in every way. We will win, and because of the number, and all the training, the draft will not come.
Finally, terrorism is good. Depending on how you use it. Many battles are fought in brightly lit fields, guns, bombs, air strikes, invading and what not to get the job done. Sometimes that isn't right. Some battles need to be fought in back alleys with knives. We need to use those knives sometimes.
Dunno if that made any sense, I hope so.
Nekai: No country in the world deserves to have 5000 of its innocent citizens massacred. That's something I like to call the, "truth."
Fennar: Uh, you asked us what we thought.
Sol: We've said this a thousand times, but I like to hear myself talk, so...
The Draft is one of the exchanges we make with the government for the right to live here with everything it provides us.
If the country is involved in a conflict which is, "just," (hey, I sound like an episode of Gundam W! 
), then avoiding the Draft is betraying the country.
After all, one of the many rights guaranteed in this country is the right to leave it if you don't like its policy.
Densetsu: This will probably sound heartless, but, that's just silly. Wouldn't you want to protect your love by protecting her home?
Jraik: I think you're mistaking "terrorism" for "psychological warfare"
Nekai, you're a world-class idiot. From now on, don't talk about subjects you know nothing about. Granted, this probably excludes you from most topics of conversation. And don't pull figures for casualties out of you ass. Makes you look even dumber that already are.
Fennar, most people would rather not fight in a war, given a choice. That's generally why there's a draft in the first place. On the other hand, the odds of any given person in the military seeing combat and killing or being killed are quite low. Defending your country is part of the social contract. If you don't want to uphold your end, please, move somewhere else. There's people who aren't even citizens here who are willing to step up and do their bit.
fucking pussys
<edit> oh yeah and as for the numbers I'm pulling out of my ass I can't pull them from any where else cos the USA made the UN halt investigations but don't worry the US is perfect and would never hurt anyone if not first attacked [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Nekai ]
What do you expect when you blatantly make shit up?
You realize that when we struck the Sudanese plant, we purposely did it during off hours--so fewer people would be killed?
That's what makes you a fucking moron, and your opinions stupid: you reach a conclusion first, then make shit up that seems to support it. Try it the other way around next time, and you might even stumble upon reality.
So there is good news: your condition is reversible. What's the point in having an opinion that runs contrary to the facts, anyway?
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Nekai had this to say about John Romero:
so would you care to explain to me why we hit it in the first place?
There's more in the newspapers besides the headlines, ya know.
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Nekai had this to say about pies:
so would you care to explain to me why we hit it in the first place?
Because, according to the best intelligence we had, it was manufacturing nerve gas.
That's bad, especially since Sudan is a known hang-out for terrorist groups.
As it turns out, we had made a mistake.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Cuba:
Reason why you didn't find casualty numbers in the range you were expecting is because they didn't happen. Now I like the X-Files as much as the next guy, but yeesh get a clue. The USA isn't supressing anything; just because you can't find numbers to support your wildly inaccurate statement doesn't mean there's a cover up (which is what it's sounding like you're insinuating), it most likely means you didn't look hard enough or (more likely) you misread something (if you bothered to read it at all).
Very well stated.
This is a common attitude that has been around since the Vietnam war. Honai Jane and others like her propogated it and the hippies at the time bought into it.
But here is one simple question. Why would we bomb a Factory like that out of Malice? What would it gain us? Absolutly nothing. And despite what some people think, the US doesn't go around attacking people for the fun of it. That is the Terrorist doing that.
Viet Nam? Sad fact is that the Viet Cong troops were, specifically, South Vietnamese people who sided with the north. Sometimes innocent civilians got hurt or killed because their fellows decided for them that they were going to make everyone a target. And it demoralized troops to have to shoot men, women, and especially children who were in a fight out of zealotry. In other words, we didn't like having to do what we did.
And Nekai, if you watched the news at all, you'd know the USA is going out of its way to airlift supplies into Afghanistan to supply their people with food, blankets, and necessary supplies to live. Contrary to what some people will believe, it's not because of that early strike that didn't hit its mark precisely. We're doing it so once the troublemakers in the Taliban have been dealt with, we can help Afghanistan get back on its feet so it doesn't breed that sort of human detritus again.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
In the future, try researching what you're gonna talk about and lay off the wild conspiracy theory. You'll find that the intensity and duration of the flames goes waaaaay down.
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Azizza stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Bad? no.. Cowardly? Yes.
Last night I watched the last episode of Band of Brothers. I saw a show about WWII and the affects it had on peoples lives. Then I watched the actual vetrans speaking about the time they spent there and how it changed thier lives forever.I lost it when a man spoke about his grandson. His Grandson asiked him if he had been a Hero durring WWII. And his responce. "No. But I served in a company of them." At that point I broke down and cried. I thought back to the men who never came home. The ones who now will forever rest on shores across the world. I thought about the families. The ones who would never see thier sons, brothers, fathers, uncles. I cried for a good long time. But it wasn't the loss of life that made me cry.
It was the fact that these men knew they would probably die. They knew they had no chance. And yet they battled on. In the middle of winter. No food. Low on ammuntion. They stood proud and strong. They died. And in the end they were victorious. But most of all. They were not alone. There were always others willing to pick up the rifle they dropped and fight.
Most of them didn't even know why they were there. But they never gave up..
To me the people who would activly Dodge the draft are cowards of the worst kind. They spit in the face of every man who has proudly served in the United States military. They are Traitors. In times of war they shoot traitors. So that sounds good to me. Hell I will even pay for the ammo if they let me nail a couple of the bastards who think they can just get a free ride on this country.World War Two for the United States when Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor. a couple thousand American servicemen died. Men who knew they may some day have to give up their lives. It was expected of them.
Now we have over FIVE THOUSAND dead civilians. Five thousand... I want you to think about that number. My high school had just over a thousand people in it. So five times that number are now dead. Yes that number is hard to fathom for me.
This whole "I don't care because it doesn't affect me" attitude is bullshit. It does affect you. Five thousand of your fellow Americans are dead.
So please go up to a family member of one of them. Go up to a Firefighter, or a police officer and tell them that it doesn't affect you and you don't care. Then you will see how much it will affect you.So no you are not a bad person. But you are a coward of the worst kind. You are a Traitor to everything that so many thousands have fought and died for in the history of this country.
This isn't Vietnam. Draft Dodgers won't be getting a free ride this time. I hope they get what they deserve. A bullet to the back of the head.
Wtf?
I...agree with Azizza?
/boggle
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Azizza wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
to expand a bit on what UBT said.
One reason I am so angry at people who want to dodge the draft is because I WANT to serve and I can't. Since I was in High school I have wanted to serve in the United States Military. I found out then that they won't take me because of my Epilepsy. Even though I have not has a seizure in years it is considered a No-No and I can't even enlist. In fact I am not even eligeble for the draft. It makes me feel ashamed.
I am the first person in my family not to serve for as far back as I can find. Both my grandfathers served in WW2. One in the Pacific and one in Europe. My father was in the airforce. My Great Granfathers both served in the Navy durring WWII. one even served on the flagship Durring the Spanish American War. My family has a proud history. And you would spit on it.
True, that would be disheartening.
But there are other ways to serve the country aside from direct military service.
Granted you are 'breaking the tradition of military service' but nothing lasts forever.
The tradition of serving the nation doesnt have to die though 
