The way I see it, 5000 people died. So what? thats less then a millonth of the population.

I dont feel any desire to join the army and go fight, and If I get drafted, I'm gonna do my damndest to doge it.

-Tristan

And being desensitized from the WTC event.. I doubt you're the only one.

A lot of us are scared that the draft might be reinstituted. Almost all of us don't want to go. Doing your best to dodge it...eh, what can I say?

I don't think you're really a bad person. Misunderstood, maybe. But I think a bad person would do worse than not feel anything.

I don't think that you totally understand what those 5,000 deaths mean. You don't feel the pain and the sorrow and the anger, not because you are a bad person, but because it isn't real to you.

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Illanae had this to say about Captain Planet:
I think that it has something to say about our society today. Young people are desensitized by movies and games that have people blown up as entertainment.

I don't think that you totally understand what those 5,000 deaths mean. You don't feel the pain and the sorrow and the anger, not because you are a bad person, but because it isn't real to you.

---

Fennar, have you ever lost a family member in a death, of any sorts? If you have, just imagine that death, 5000 times over, for 5000 family and friends.

But being desensitized to anything is a cause for concern in my opinion. I know that the things I am desensitized to worry me.

If our heart gets hurt, it scabs over. Well, not literally of course, but we figuratively build up a wall so we don't get hurt the next time. I think that's a bad thing, because it can lessen the experiences of life somewhat.

My 2 copper.

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We were all impressed when Black Wizard wrote:

Fennar, have you ever lost a family member in a death, of any sorts? If you have, just imagine that death, 5000 times over, for 5000 family and friends.

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I have, in fact my uncle died on my birthday.

It's not an uncommon condition these days.

Yes, I'm serious.

Doesn't the alignment system define evil as putting your own needs and wants above all else? That should answer your question. That, and if you have to ask. . . .

Insenitive perhaps. Perhaps you have a lack of national pride. There is nothing wrong with that. Few Americans really do. Not in the sense they used to at least. That is, until this stired it.

As to dodging the draft, frankly that is bad to me. You live in the country, you gain all its benefits, but when it needs you, you sneak out? If they start drafting it means they need us. If they start drafting, I wont wait, I'll join and go. That, however, is all just an opinion.

So I say, no, you're not a bad person.

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Illanae stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
I think that it has something to say about our society today. Young people are desensitized by movies and games that have people blown up as entertainment.

I don't think that you totally understand what those 5,000 deaths mean. You don't feel the pain and the sorrow and the anger, not because you are a bad person, but because it isn't real to you.

---

Being one of thoes 'kids' I have to say that I agree to an extent and I disagree...

This is the 3rd (? I know at least second) attack that hit the WTC. My roommate tried to wake me up that morning by telling me that Terrorists attacked the WTC. I rolled over and went back to sleep. They attacked it before, they'll attack it again. I'll catch up when I wake up. He then came back and told me they hit the Pentagon. That woke me up.

The pointless and obscene loss of life is sad. Unfortunately I didn't have anyone directly involved. I can't imagine how thoes who do feel and I'm not going to lie about it or even try to feel it. I've got my life to live and I don't need to be putting extra shit on like that. Yes it's sad. Yes it's tragic. It's happened. It's over. It's time to move on. I can understand folks with loved ones or close friends lost will take some time to move on with life again. But for the 97% of us who had no one directly involved, what's the excuse?

Desensitized? Maybe. Cynical? Definately. Realist? Yep.

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Random Insanity Generator is probably my long lost alter ego:
Being one of thoes 'kids' I have to say that I agree to an extent and I disagree...

This is the 2nd attack that hit the WTC. My sister tried to wake me up that morning by telling me that Terrorists attacked the WTC. I rolled over and went back to sleep. They attacked it before, they'll attack it again. I'll catch up when I wake up. She then came back and told me they hit the Pentagon. That woke me up.

The pointless and obscene loss of life is sad. Unfortunately I didn't have anyone directly involved. I can't imagine how those who do feel and I'm not going to lie about it or even try to feel it. I've got my life to live and I don't need to be putting extra shit on like that. Yes it's sad. Yes it's tragic. It's happened. It's over. It's time to move on. I can understand folks with loved ones or close friends lost will take some time to move on with life again. But for the 97% of us who had no one directly involved, what's the excuse?

Desensitized? Maybe. Cynical? Definately. Realist? Yep.

---

Changed some minor things. That's me.

i know what its like having some one close to me die, and i have become somewhat indifferent to death
and this event doesn't effect much me either

mainly because from my point of view United States isn't united, its more like "Divided states of america" where skin color, sex, and sexual prefference cause people to fight over stupid crap. freedom of speech is limited because the majority is affraid to offend some minority

thats my 2 cents

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You are a slave to death ~ Jon Irenicus

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That we are. You will die, your family and offspring will inherit, and you will be forgotten. Depending how many people that knew you and how much of a public person you were, you may be remembered for some time. But eventually, you will be forgotten. Life is pointless. Face it. I'm not a pessimistic person. I'm just not deluding myself.

I don't feel sorry for the victims of the WTC accident. I feel sorry for their families and friends.

-Jalal

Oh, you may think you believe it happened, but your current worldly experience might not accomodate the reality of the event, and thus you may even be incapable of truely believing just what happened having only been given second-hand accounts.

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Maradön? ]

I lost it when a man spoke about his grandson. His Grandson asiked him if he had been a Hero durring WWII. And his responce. "No. But I served in a company of them." At that point I broke down and cried. I thought back to the men who never came home. The ones who now will forever rest on shores across the world. I thought about the families. The ones who would never see thier sons, brothers, fathers, uncles. I cried for a good long time. But it wasn't the loss of life that made me cry.

It was the fact that these men knew they would probably die. They knew they had no chance. And yet they battled on. In the middle of winter. No food. Low on ammuntion. They stood proud and strong. They died. And in the end they were victorious. But most of all. They were not alone. There were always others willing to pick up the rifle they dropped and fight.
Most of them didn't even know why they were there. But they never gave up..
To me the people who would activly Dodge the draft are cowards of the worst kind. They spit in the face of every man who has proudly served in the United States military. They are Traitors. In times of war they shoot traitors. So that sounds good to me. Hell I will even pay for the ammo if they let me nail a couple of the bastards who think they can just get a free ride on this country.

World War Two for the United States when Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor. a couple thousand American servicemen died. Men who knew they may some day have to give up their lives. It was expected of them.

Now we have over FIVE THOUSAND dead civilians. Five thousand... I want you to think about that number. My high school had just over a thousand people in it. So five times that number are now dead. Yes that number is hard to fathom for me.
This whole "I don't care because it doesn't affect me" attitude is bullshit. It does affect you. Five thousand of your fellow Americans are dead.
So please go up to a family member of one of them. Go up to a Firefighter, or a police officer and tell them that it doesn't affect you and you don't care. Then you will see how much it will affect you.

So no you are not a bad person. But you are a coward of the worst kind. You are a Traitor to everything that so many thousands have fought and died for in the history of this country.

This isn't Vietnam. Draft Dodgers won't be getting a free ride this time. I hope they get what they deserve. A bullet to the back of the head.

I pity your desensitization more than anything else. I know you didn't want or ask for my pity, but there it is.

One the one side, you're right. 5000 people is less than a millionth of the world's population.

On the other side, 5000 people died. In the span of a few hours. Casualties in war aren't that bad.

So, had you said that to my face, and caught me in a bad mood, I might have cracked you in the jaw. However, that's hypothetical, and the odds of that happening are slim to nil. Plus, that would make ME a bad person.

Are you a bad person? No. But...

(I walked away from the computer for a few minutes to think)

...But I view you--and the portion of our collective generation that you represent--with a certain degree of...alarm.

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Karnaj ]

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Azizza stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Bad? no.. Cowardly? Yes.
Last night I watched the last episode of Band of Brothers. I saw a show about WWII and the affects it had on peoples lives. Then I watched the actual vetrans speaking about the time they spent there and how it changed thier lives forever.

I lost it when a man spoke about his grandson. His Grandson asiked him if he had been a Hero durring WWII. And his responce. "No. But I served in a company of them." At that point I broke down and cried. I thought back to the men who never came home. The ones who now will forever rest on shores across the world. I thought about the families. The ones who would never see thier sons, brothers, fathers, uncles. I cried for a good long time. But it wasn't the loss of life that made me cry.

It was the fact that these men knew they would probably die. They knew they had no chance. And yet they battled on. In the middle of winter. No food. Low on ammuntion. They stood proud and strong. They died. And in the end they were victorious. But most of all. They were not alone. There were always others willing to pick up the rifle they dropped and fight.
Most of them didn't even know why they were there. But they never gave up..
To me the people who would activly Dodge the draft are cowards of the worst kind. They spit in the face of every man who has proudly served in the United States military. They are Traitors. In times of war they shoot traitors. So that sounds good to me. Hell I will even pay for the ammo if they let me nail a couple of the bastards who think they can just get a free ride on this country.

World War Two for the United States when Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor. a couple thousand American servicemen died. Men who knew they may some day have to give up their lives. It was expected of them.

Now we have over FIVE THOUSAND dead civilians. Five thousand... I want you to think about that number. My high school had just over a thousand people in it. So five times that number are now dead. Yes that number is hard to fathom for me.
This whole "I don't care because it doesn't affect me" attitude is bullshit. It does affect you. Five thousand of your fellow Americans are dead.
So please go up to a family member of one of them. Go up to a Firefighter, or a police officer and tell them that it doesn't affect you and you don't care. Then you will see how much it will affect you.

So no you are not a bad person. But you are a coward of the worst kind. You are a Traitor to everything that so many thousands have fought and died for in the history of this country.

This isn't Vietnam. Draft Dodgers won't be getting a free ride this time. I hope they get what they deserve. A bullet to the back of the head.

---

Amen Brutha

But I still don't see the reason why someone I know and like should go and get shot for something he dosen't beleive in. If you beleive in the cause, goodie for you. I don't really care. Go ahead, go fight your war and win your victories if you want. It's not my business. But the second you make it the business of someone I like, the second you make it my business, I'll fight -- but I'll fight YOU. Making people fight your war is not your right, nor their duty. If they want out of it, I support their choice. If others want in, I support them as well. Do what you want. Just don't force what you want on other people.

No, you're not a bad person, you're nto a coward, you're not deluded, you're not desensitized, you're not any of the other insults flung your way. YOu're you. Go out and live however the hell you want to.

The no remorse over the deaths is a grevious sin, but one that can be forgiven when you realize what that statement means, and how many souls you just threw to the wind. Considering people as statistics is even worse than not feeling remorse, it is trying to justify it as an ok thing to do. If you are going to sin, at least do it forthright. One of the ugliest kinds of sin is one that tries to justify another.

As for not wanting to join the army that is not really bad in anyway, fear of death is normal. However trying to dodge the draft in my book is about as low as one can go. As Socrates said, by living in a society you agree to everything it does, you are not just a random person who ended up in America, you are am American citizen, and that means more than most people think. By this one simple statement you smear and destroy your own honor, integrity and character. You do NOT get to take the smiles and good econemy and then run like hell when grit comes to grit. Cowardice is bearable, but only to a point, and by saying you will dodge the draft you have gone way past it my friend. Call me old fasion but the only worth in a man is the strength of his word, nothing else matters, and you slander yourself on this day. But don't worry to much, take pleasure in the fact that the majority of the world would agree with you, and justify your actions, and I am just the raving fool, the "insane one" in the corner who watches the world falling into pieces around him.

Yeah, that's right: society is a big welfare system where you should get all the benefits without paying any of the costs. Unless you want to.

Don't want to work? Everyone else should give you their hard-earned money.

Don't want to fight? Someone else should risk their life to keep you safe.

Freeloaders of the world, unite!

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

As for me, I'm not afraid of being called in. Just because I've done my time for the military doesn't mean I won't be hauled in to fight in the next war. Of course, I won't go out of my way to die for my country; it's my job to make sure the enemy dies for theirs.

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Bloodsage had this to say:
Don't want to work? Everyone else should give you their hard-earned money.

Don't want to fight? Someone else should risk their life to keep you safe.

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Sounds good to me!

Humour Disclaimer

If you can't see that as a blatant attack upon this Nation, I do pity you. If you can't see that these Terrorists value your life as much as they value a piece of shit, I pity you. The very heart of this country was atacked, you should feel something. We stand to lose our very liberties that were so hard won. Why? Because in order to fight Terrorism in this great "Melting Pot", the citizens that are to be protected will have to give up their rights as well.

Goodbye right to bear arms.
Hello Police State.

Watch and see. You will feel something once this affects you. Don't be so sure that it doesn't already.

As someone who gladly joined the military and has the belief that everyone should join for at least the minimum 4 year term, I do however find that you would be a draft dodger sickens me to the point of bloodlust.

There are alot of things in this country I cant stand. Like the fact that joining the military makes us less than a citizen of the United States. I can't stand the fact that everyone plays that damn Lee Greenwood song " Proud to Be an American" and yet that jerk was a draft dodger. In fact, that song sickens me to no end. I die everytime I hear it, not because it touches me but because it is sung by someone who refuses to defend his rights.

I dont hate you or even think you're a bad person for not feeling anything for the dead in the WTC disaster. Try talking to a man who lost his brother and father in the span of 5 minutes when a building that stood for so much became nothing but a pile of debris. Several of us in the military lost loved ones.

My family holds a tradition of each generation joining the military starting with my great grandfather who served under General Patton in WWII. When he passed on I was able to meet some of the people that he helped liberate from the death camp. My Grandfather and uncles fought in Vietnam. I lost an uncle when Jane Fonda brought the Viet Cong near his platoon to try to "bring them to the side of good." My father was in Desert Storm, and I have been in 2 conflicts so far that can't really be considered a war. I was in Macedonia during their civil war and watched gunships fire over my head to the hit the rebels behind us. I was in Saudi Arabia when we bombed SAM sites to better defend our pilots in the " No Fly Zone." I even lost my best friend in the bombing of Kobar Towers.

I gladly gave up my rights to serve my country. They told us from the beginning that we would get an education but at a cost of fighting if called upon. The recent developments of servicemen and women wanting out because of the war is sickening. They claim that they never told us, but they told us from day 1 what to expect.

In my job, I see more things than most would because of what I do. I work on the RQ-1A Predator UAV's. Yes, we lose them over Iraq, but we don't lose the pilots. Even after all I have seen, I am still not desensitized to the extent as not being touched by the events that have happened.

I dont hate you or think you are a bad person, but I do think your a coward. If our nation were to call upon you, then that means we are in deep shit and you're going to die anyways. The sad thing is that we defend your right to live in this country and you wont help defend it for the next generation.

To sum this all up, your not a bad person but you could be better. We all could stand another heavy dose of patriotism, maybe it would get rid of the draft dodgers and help to better unite us.

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Maradön? had this to say about Tron:
It's possible that you don't even really believe it happened.

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You'd be surprised at the amount of people that really don't believe it happened, that it's all just a movie/dream/'real' TV series.

I heard about one child on the radio one day. That child was 3. He witnessed the attacks at the WTC as they were shown on CNN. He didn't quite understand it, and was so traumatized by the incident his parents had to lie to him. They told him it was a movie. I suspect that many parents have done something similar with their young children.

But it isn't just children. Many older people are thinking, "Holy crap... How could this happen? How?" so they might not believe it actually happened.

Did those people deserve to die? No did America deserve this? Yes

Think about it? A few years ago when Clinton was in office we blew up a damn phartisutical factory over there crippling their supplies and killing estamated 10,000 or so but no one knows because when the UN went in to investigate the USA ordered them out. There was no reason to bomb this factory. There was no investigation given to it. We just went in and took all those lives.

We've been giving money and supplies to Israel for years years financing a war against Afghanistan that otherwise couldn't take place. If Cananda attacked us but could only do it because China gave them the power to do it with the US specifically targeted would we attack China? humm....

Have our armed forces ever left Saudi Arabia? Remember one of bin Laden's only 3 demands was to get out troops out of there. Something that should have been done a long time ago with out the US having to be told to do it. Sure the other 2 were fairly hard to meet but we could compramise I'm sure.

I've heard so much talk about how we can't reason with them because they're all taught America is satan. Well what do our president go on live TV and call them? evil. Okay what are we teaching our kids here? That middle easterners are evil? Is that any better than them calling us satan?

And the war on terrorism's worked so well in northern Ireland for Britian. It's only been going on for what 35 years now? Do we want this to be another Veitnam? Did we learn nothing? History repeats itself and someone needs to give Bush a book about Veitnam.

Something tells me this is gonna turn out a lot like the drug war. Not do anything, waste a lot of money, and ruin a lot of innocent lives.

Bring peace in the middle east!

yeah yeah go ahead bloodsage.....

In Trendy Ethics, nobody cares when somebody dies. People die every day; who cares? The Trendy Ethicist neglects to mention how he felt when his best friend died in a car accident.

The Trendy Ethicist looks out for Number One. It's not my problem, so sayeth the Trendy Ethicist. And my life is none of your business; as long as I sincerely believe in something, you have no right to tell me it's, "wrong." The Trendy Ethicist adamantly refuses to discuss those who sincerely believe that the lives of American civilians are justifiable military targets.

As a Trendy Ethicist, one understands that courtesy, respect, and compassion are illusions behind which we guard our true feelings. By extending warmth, we are weakening the species through gross falsehood. The Trendy Ethicist thus treats everyone like dirt, and, since he sincerely believes this is, "right," you aren't allowed to tell him any differently.

The Trendy Ethicist recently recieved a kick in his fucking head, courtesy of my sneaker.

The Trendy Ethicst understands that, occasionally, drastic measures are required to make people see the truth.

Canada's that way, kthxbye.

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Nekai wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
[QB]Mindless drivel from an idiotQB]

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You really have no Idea about World Polotics do you.

Yes we support Isreal. Without us they would have fallen long ago to the countries around them. These countries made the mistake before of attacking Isreal. Isreal then kicked thier ass and took the land land that is being battled over now. To the victors go the spoils. It is that simple.

Saudi Arabi does not want the US to leave. And I have news for you. Despite what most limp dick Liberals want we will not give in to the demands of two bit terrorist who haven't even discovered the wonders of toilet paper.

To say America Deserved this is one of the most ignorant statements I have heard to date. Now why don't you go stay with your friend Bin Laden and wipe his ass for him.

You are stupid if you think Bin Laden would ever stop this shit. He is a criminal. He will be found. He will be dealt with.

If someone had said the to my face the bullshit you just spouted off they would be on thier way to the hospitol and I would be on the way to jail.

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Sentow had this to say about Robocop:
Nekai:

Canada's that way, kthxbye.

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Could not have said it better myself

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Nekai wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Well after all that's been said I suppose I will state my stance on the war.

Did those people deserve to die? No did America deserve this? Yes

Think about it? A few years ago when Clinton was in office we blew up a damn phartisutical factory over there crippling their supplies and killing estamated 10,000 or so but no one knows because when the UN went in to investigate the USA ordered them out. There was no reason to bomb this factory. There was no investigation given to it. We just went in and took all those lives.

We've been giving money and supplies to Israel for years years financing a war against Afghanistan that otherwise couldn't take place. If Cananda attacked us but could only do it because China gave them the power to do it with the US specifically targeted would we attack China? humm....

Have our armed forces ever left Saudi Arabia? Remember one of bin Laden's only 3 demands was to get out troops out of there. Something that should have been done a long time ago with out the US having to be told to do it. Sure the other 2 were fairly hard to meet but we could compramise I'm sure.

I've heard so much talk about how we can't reason with them because they're all taught America is satan. Well what do our president go on live TV and call them? evil. Okay what are we teaching our kids here? That middle easterners are evil? Is that any better than them calling us satan?

And the war on terrorism's worked so well in northern Ireland for Britian. It's only been going on for what 35 years now? Do we want this to be another Veitnam? Did we learn nothing? History repeats itself and someone needs to give Bush a book about Veitnam.

Something tells me this is gonna turn out a lot like the drug war. Not do anything, waste a lot of money, and ruin a lot of innocent lives.

Bring peace in the middle east!

yeah yeah go ahead bloodsage.....

---

Ah, I finally managed to find someone against the war who I can talk to. It's suprisingly hard, I've been hoping to talk to someone about it for weeks.

I have one question for you. What do you see as the alternative to attacking Bin Laden? I'm serious about that. Believe me, I want to be on the side of the protesters here. I don't want vengance; I don't even want justice, contrary to most people. I just want the US to be able to live in peace with other countries. Military force is an absolute last resort in my mind, to be used only when directly endangered.

However, in this conflict, for the first time, I honestly don't see any viable alternatives to fighting. Bin Laden has shown a willingness to continue terrorist attacks, this will not end with the WTC if we don't make some kind of response. Giving into his demands isn't an option. First, there isn't a chance the public would accept it. Second, the demands themselves would be impossible for the current situation. I don't know Bin Laden's three demands, but I can easily guess that at least one of them is going to be to remove our support from Israel, which is not a viable option. It would leave Israel to be taken apart by the palestinians, as the grudge between the two is still going strong. the US leaving wouldn't stop conflict, it would create it. If we left and abandoned our peacemaking efforts, as well as our supplies to Israel, then I could almost garuntee war.

So, we can't meet his demands. We can't just continue as we are, that simply invites more attacks, which Bin Laden has been shown to be more than willing to do. That leaves one option, stopping Bin Laden, and one method, attacking where he is.

Where is the flaw in my logic? I don't see any method by which we could just stop the war. However, many people, including some whose opinion I highly respect, say not to fight. There must be a logic to this stance, I just haven't found anyone to tell it to me. So, what is the hidden alternative that I don't see?

edit: tiny side point; the president specifically stated multiple times that this was not a war against middle easterners, and that we should in no way associate the acts of terrorism with them. You can say what you want about the public conciousness against middle easterners, but you can't say the president is calling them evil. He only said that about the terrorists themselves.

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Chalesm ]