I am a firm believer that there will be justice, whether in this life or the next, the people who are responsible are going to pay, and pay hard. This was not an attack on a military target like in the days of Pearl Harbor, this was against civilians, using civilian aircraft as weapons, filled with passengers. This isn't just terrorism, it's madness. My guess would be a Palestinian group, because kamikaze attacks are their stock in trade, but who says it couldn't be another Middle-Eastern country, or even a Central/South American country whose relations with us are strained.

Damn...just,damn. The total casualties may well equate our losses in the Vietnam War, all in the space of a few hours, instead of years. This is the biggest mass killing in the US since the Civil War practically. I hope that God, or whatever deity that had watched over the people who had died has mercy on their souls.

Sen. Hatcher said that our Intelligence has intercepted some private communications between Osama Bin Ladin affiliated members that have said they "hit two targets" today.

So.. I assume the cat is partway out of the bag.

And it's been confirmed that the US has nothing to do with the attacks in Kabul.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Wyndrunner ]

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Originally posted by Azrael/Avatar:
I don't think we should go flying off the handle until we find out who did this, and then, we can have them pay dearly for their deeds.

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i'm not going to fly off the handle, i'm going to jump off it with a blood curdling scream of rage.

I can't be rational today.

You know the rest.

Bombings will do nothing but hurt more innocents. More death. EVEN MORE DEATH. God. 10,000 already, and prolly more, and bombings, and damage to other things, and people who're dying in hospitals, and...

And I don't want to see any more death. But that seems to be the answer to everything, isn't it?

War, huh, good god y'all...

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Originally posted by Blunbad Kaaboom:
This is sickening enough to know how many + people are dead and that are missing, and that the fact is that these terrist did it for what reason? I do not know! But whatever reasons they had, there should be no reason to sacrifice any ones lives in cold blood over some petty little thing.

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Sorry if this has been posted already, but this is my theory.

Afghanistan (or however you spell it ) has been in a religious war for who knows how long with Israel. Since we seem to be pretty good buddies with Israel, I guess the Afghanistan-jin don't like us. So... They took out the World Trade Center in a quick attempt to crush our finances and communication.

That's just what I think...

The WTC have been bombed once before. It brought everything to a halt, and, if the explosion had been bigger, would have done this sort of damage that we're seeing today.

With the falling price of the dollar and the US stock markets recently, What is the best way to raise it? War. Maybe not all out war, but who knows. The U.S. Gov't may have been FUNDING whoever did this in an effort to boost the economy through artificial means. That is a bad thing.

Usually, when there is a big downturn in forign markets, everyone kinda rushes to the dollar, as sort of a "home base" in tag. With the value of the dollar obviously going to go down, EVERY stock market in the world will go down with it. I'm not an economy major, but look at it this way... Remember the 30's depression? Pretty much ended with the war cos Japan pissed us royally off. The small market correction (that could have been a crash) in the 80s.. Didnt we see the gulf war soon after that?

This is WWIII, people. I'm afraid. Very afraid. ... Maybe its time to go and kick some butt in KC before i get drafted.

Oh, and if you think i'm wrong, just look at my sig.

This is the kind of think you childer will ask 20 years from now, what were you doing one September 11 2001. You will remeber this forever.

Every American lost a little bit of freedom today.

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Originally posted by Tarquinn:
Son, the attitudes of some people in some parts of palistine is not a reason to attack the entire place. That's not justice, it's murder as bad as the terrorists commited.

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1. Don't ever address me as "son." First, I'd bet I'm a great deal older than you. Second, you've neither the wit nor experience to patronize me. Back off.

2. Learn your geography. Kabul is nowhere near Lebanon. There is no Palestine. As homework, why don't you find a map and locate Afghanistan. You might learn a thing or two.

3. The U.S. had nothing to do with that attack. And I've got no sympathy whatever for Afghanis--except women and children. Which is yet another reason to be happy if someone is taking on the current regime.

4. Get emotional on your own time. If you want to lash out, at least make a cursory effort to get your facts straight so you don't come off as a complete idiot. Otherwise, if you don't like something I've said, feel free to take issue politely.

5. Neener.

"Terrorism will always go on, no matter who you kill, unless you kill everybody."

Let's try not to look for someone to blame and kill for this. Let's first help everyone get through this. Then, if action is required to stop further immediate attacks, it will be taken. Remember, though, that it may not be in our best interests to find someone to blame for this. Although, I know finding and killing our "bad guy" might make us feel better and give some resolution.

I've said it once i'll say it again if we drop the bombs before we have evidence we're as bad as the terrorists.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing that is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and cannot be free unless made and kept so by the efforts of better men than himself.

While I don't subscribe quite to that depth of disdain, I think it's important to realize that you're free to choose pacifism, free to express your opinions, only because a large number of men and women stand ready to fight and die to protect and ensure those freedoms. The world might indeed be a better place if violence did not exist, but it does, and it isn't.

As long as there are humans, there will be violence. And freedom will exist only as long as some stand ready unleash countering violence in the service of that freedom.

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Originally posted by Nekai:
so uhh if they have a penis you don't feel bad about murdering them without evidence that they did anything? Good point there bloodsage

I've said it once i'll say it again if we drop the bombs before we have evidence we're as bad as the terrorists.

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Are you being intentionally dense? The U.S. was not involved in whatever happened in Afghanistan earlier, by all reports.

And, no, I don't have any sympathy at all for anything that happens to the Taliban government in Afghanistan. They have harbored Osama bin Laden, they are perpetrating the worst crimes imaginable against their own people, they have been defacing priceless historical treasures--in short, they have no redeeming features as a government. If there is open revolt in Afghanistan, the results can hardly be worse than the status quo.

Feel free to differ, but get your facts straight, first.

But don't expect to hear any kind of public discussion of whatever leads the President to authorize strikes. It won't be done capriciously, but the evidence won't be weighed in public, either. Too much to lose from an intelligence standpoint.

Tonight is not a night to expect reason.

Ask for reason when the names of the dead are released and we can find out if our MIA friends and family are alive or not.

For now, expect cries of bloody retribution. Unless you want to hear partying in the street, in which case you should go to Baghdad or Palestine.

/scowl

However, with reports of the middle east up in celebration, I no longer have regret at the thought of eliminating said nation. I do not like it but I dont remorse for it. When I high society person of your nation is quoted as saying, "God is good God is great, America was the head of the snake." I see no compassion from that contry and have no love for them. And our childrens safety, and our childrens lives mean more than the lives of this nation. It is painful and it is ugly, but it's our lives or theres. Live or die. What choice do we have? Afghanistan harbors terrorist groups openly, it funds there efforts openly. Why should a country like that be aloud to exist any longer? I am not evil, I am not cruel. But my life is here, and although innocents may die, the price is worth my childrens lives and thier security.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Star Collective ]

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WE WILL NEVER SURRENDER...
Winston Churchill said those words in a very trying time, when it seemed like no clear skies were in sight...
Now my friends in the south are plagued by a cloud of darkness, a wave of terror and fear. And to them, I echo Churchill's words.

Terrorism's goal is to disrupt life and order. It has as its goal to make everyone want to hide away in their houses, under their beds. To fill the heart and mind with despair. To shut down the human capacity to HOPE. To DREAM. To LIVE.

But we can't let them win. We CAN'T SURRENDER our freedom of spirit.

So to all of you I say this: DON'T hide from this. DON'T despair, and DON'T give in to hate or irrational thoughts of vengeance. We have to stay STRONG in the shadow of this terrible event. We OURSELVES have to be the beacons of LIGHT that will lead us out of this darkness, and that MUST lead to JUSTICE being delivered -- fairly, wisely. HUMANLY.

Don't talk of WAR. Allow time to figure out WHAT or WHO is responsible, and THEN mete out a RESPONSE that is tempered with ALL the POSITIVE human qualities we have the capacity to exhibit.

And DON'T forget about ANY of the people who were victims, either. But instead of thinking of angry retaliation, think of ways to HELP those in need now -- there are MANY. GO give blood. GO volunteer ANYTHING you can to assist the THOUSANDS of people affected directly or indirectly by this.

"Whatever the cost may be..." The American people have just paid a great and TERRIBLE cost for their ideals.

Now we have to show that these ideals CAN PASS THE TEST.

DON'T SURRENDER, people. NEVER SURRENDER.

I am going to go give some blood later today. And I will continue to draw. None of my actions will bring people back. But it WILL help those still there.

We must think of the LIVING NOW. There will be time to mourn those lost later. I WON'T forget them, and neither will you.

OUR ISLAND WILL NOT SINK. OUR HOPE MUST LIVE ON.

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[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: ? ]

Was there rejoicing when WWII ended? Hell yeah. Were we proud? Hell yeah. Did we WANT to use the atomic bomb in Japan? No. We did what was necessary. Did we want to lay waste to Germany? No. We did what was necessary.

There is no question as to whether or not this was an act of war. The best a nation can hope for at this point is that the USA gov't realizes that not all people of that terrorist-harboring state are the enemy.

Do we WANT to have to do this? If we did we would have rabidly laid waste to people before. We want this to end. We want this to be handled. We're not going to just suck it up and move on. Someone will pay. The best we can hope for is that there isn't too high a cost of life. But there will be loss of life. It's horrible, but let's face it...we're not the villains. The people who set this in motion are.

If anyone has any of these more humane solutions to what plagues us now, then I would honestly like to hear them. If it is Ben Ladin or whatever, I cant spell the name. You think Afghanistan will give him up? If they did then great the issue is mostly over, until some new arrogant bastard steps upto plate. And we show in the past that the concequences for terrorising America are minimal. But Ben Ladin is a hero in Afghanistan, you really thing they would do that in the first place?

Give me a solution, give me a humane responce. I want to know, I want hear it. I don't like hate, fear, or terror. But I now suffer from all those and more. You tell me what is humane yet direct and justification enough to allow sympathy to nation that grovels and adores a butcherer. What difference is there from Ben Ladin, if he did it, than Hitler except that he was a coward and would rather attack as a spider or snake than to show a true face to the world? You tell me that then, and maybe I can forgo anger and sickness. Maybe I can ignore thousands of deaths, raw butchery, and inhumane murder of OUR innocents. You tell me or show me the way. And then maybe I'll understand. Until then, I want, not the death of innocents, although I will accept it. I want retribution...

But some of the things I've read here, frankly disgust me. Ideas such as bomb them all, kill them all and so forth...border on murder to such an extent to be just as bad as the mindsets of the terrorist who have committed these acts of war.

If a crowd of people cheer in times square or riot, or pickett - it doesn't mean the entire nation believes/follows those same ideals of the people there. Similarly just because there may be cheering and what not in Baghdad and the West Bank - it does not mean the remainder of those nations are sitting there, at home doing the same thing.

This is now war, and in war innocents die on both sides. I'm not claiming that nothing should be done in retaliation - but for people to yell "KILL THEM ALL" is so...wrong it leaves the bitter taste of disgust in my mouth.

Anger is warranted. Justice is deserved, but simply mass-murder? In this age you would have thought we as human beings would be above such a thing.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Arcadus Lil'Velve ]

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Originally posted by Faelynn LeAndris:
For those who have said to stay humane, and talk not of war but of justice. Not to show anger and retaliate.. If we don't then what do we show? We show our hands are tied and this kinda of torture can continue. If you wish to stand on this opinion, I understand and I sympathize, as I see the innocence in a child, I have two of my own. I know the wealth of family. I have one. But mine and ours are infinitely more important than thiers when such as they harbor and protect, and in some cases fund these sorts of terrorist attacks. These are no longer crime deserving of punish, but acts of War. And it is time they were treated as such.

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This thing, this whole thing, has shown me what a precious thing human life is. And how a simple twitch in the eye of Fate could have had you as a visitor to the WTC. How if Fate did one thing wrong, you could be dancing in the streets right now, but secretly wondering what this folly has bought. You could be a daughter wondering when Daddy's coming home. A firefighter rushing into the rubble to save someone, but soon knowing with grim finality that it'll be you who'll need saving. You could be an office worker. A janitor. Someone who just got a raise. You could have just made the best business deal of your life. Then you'd be dead. Then you're a statistic.

It's a precious thing. It's a FLEETING thing, and we hold on to it as long as is possible, because even if we don't acknowledge it, we realize somewhere how precious of a thing it is.

So I want to find the sick bastards who did this. The masterminds. The people who willingly and knowingly went into this, knew what they were doing, what they'd endanger, kill. I want to find them. And I want them to experience a hundred fates worse than death.

But I want only them. I want as little innocent bloodshed as possible.

I can, however, state with complete confidence that no one in a position to authorize the use of American military force is even contemplating the killing of civilians of any nation. As a matter of fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts that, second only to trying to figure out who is responsible, the discussions are revolving about ways to avoid excessive loss of civilian life while dealing a massive blow to those responsible.

"KIll them all and let God sort them out," is, perhaps, an understandable sentiment for those with no responsibility in the process of employing armed force in the real world. It's perhaps a necessary part of grief. But it is not an attitude in which our leaders indulge.

Exactly what evidence comes to light to highlight particular targets for retribution will probably never be made public. But you can be damn sure that protecting civilians of any nation is at the very forefront of decisions made to retaliate.

quote:

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Dubya sez:
"We shall make no distinction between those who harbour Terrorists and the Terrorists themselves."

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Holding our own, will not make us as they are. We have not terrorized thier nation, they have terrorized us. We have aloud this, not by choice but because America doesn't want to bear the guilt. We did not start this war, we want it only to be over, for good. We were terrorized, we have been terrorized in the past, and we will be terrorized again if we do nothing short of war. Again I ask for another solution.

No if crowds cheer in the street, it doesn't include an intire nations stance, and they are innocent civilians. If we invade and war begins, I am quite sure all acts will be taken to preserv life from being unjstly taken. But no one has yet told me anything short of all out war that provides me with a viable solution, if you take this stance tell me why they should be spared when we suffer. Why should there loss of innocents be any less than ours? Why should we suffer and they maintain? That is not justice, that is not an ansewer. This is war and it will not end untill the perpetrators are taken and their governement has falled. We have been terrorized for years, we have suffered through Desert Storm and uncountable troubles from such threats. You people who take the violence begets violence, which is not the case here, stance forget just how much we have endured at the expense of humanity and because we would not lift a hand. You tell me the ansewer if you dont want war. But if you say bend over and take it, and don't give me solutions you are ignorant of the ways of man and uncarring. Or nation has been scarred, far worse than ever before. But we alloud these types of threats to continue for compassion. There is a time to love and a time to forgive. This is not that time. We have forgiven Germany, to an extent. We have forgiven Japan, to an extent Japan officials are now even quoted as giving thier sympathies and saying they have nothing but intense anger and offer support. No this is not forgiving times, this is hell and my children, and you who are still children with have to live with this for the rest of your lives. This ends now...