Essentially, I'd like a spec that would allow me to do more than just be a cleric, which is what role paladins were pigeonholed into pre-2.00. From what I'm understanding skimming through the hell hole that is the Blizzard forums, and what I've read here in the past, by going full Ret-tard (or 41 points anyway), paladins can actually do decent damage now? If they can't, is there a way I can spec a paladin to where I'll be a pain in the ass to kill in raids and in PvP?
Being a heal bitch is not my preferred role in any MMO, but I don't mind doing some healing, and I definitely prefer hybrid classes (such as paladin or shaman) over "normal" classes, as they generally have a wider variety of abilities to choose from during play, and have more adaptability compared to other classes.
So I'm looking for a spec for a paladin that will allow me to kick ass (as well as a paladin can) or... take it up the ass(!?) for as long as possible without dying, preferably without being completely forced into the "Jackass whispers, Y RN'T U HEALIN ME" scenario that I frequently experienced on my shaman on Zul'Jin.
At least until Alliance gets shamans, then I'm rollin me one of thems.
Anyway, enough of that crap. Here's the build that I just threw together. Is that a decent ret pally build, or if it isn't, how can I make it better?
Especially if those other people don't like you in the first place.
This makes them a wonderfully impartial source for information the will help determine you YOU play YOUR character on a DIFFERENT SERVER AND GUILD than them.
I didn't start this thread looking for a retarded flame-fest.
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From the Book of Armaments, Willias did read;
Get your whining out of my thread.I didn't start this thread looking for a retarded flame-fest.
My point is, (and I'm sorry it came across as whining) no matter what you suggest or may prefer, someone is going to tell that you're wrong. It would be the same in any other class thread, unless everyone who plays a particular class is in agreement.
Basically, do what you want. But don't waste points on Pursuit of Justice. It stacks with nothing. 
However, the whole point of asking for advice is to get a decent idea of where to start, to get a general idea of what well accepted builds are, to get an idea of what works for other people, and to get an idea of what works well. In general, I only have a basic idea of what I want to do with the character, and other people may have a good idea of what works, and what doesn't, or what works best.
Doing what you want is fine and all, but generally there are specific builds that people tend to stick to for each class that are proven to work well, even if a little unimaginative. I'd rather have a spec on a character that will allow me to kill things as efficiently as possible, compared to screwing around with various talents and learning what works best through trial and error, and even then there may be a spec that works better than what I've chosen.
And people disagreeing on specs is a good thing as it lets me know there are variations to certain builds which may leave a little wiggle room to put various points where I want them, rather than a build where everything is set in stone to maximize the usefulness of my character.
That's why I'm asking for advice. I want to know what other people think are good builds for paladins, so I can edit my character and have a more enjoyable experience due to my character being stronger in the long run.
First, as a ret paladin, if you're geared well, you will have very little int. The +10% will not do much, if anything. You'd be much better off taking the +10% str talent instead. Second, you've taken improved seal of righteousness, which you will NEVER use, instead of taking Spiritual Focus, which is bar none the single most important talent you can have, period.
Sanctified Judgement is, IMO, subpar. You're getting 50% of the seal's cost back, but only when it crits. Most seals only cost 150 or so mana. The benefit simply isn't worth it in my opinion. Besides, even after the nerf, vengance is incredible. Definately worth maxing out for the most burst damage possible, which is your only real hope anyway. This is a very sound build, IMO.
However, might I suggest an alternative? With the changes to Holy Shock, it's now a viable damage talent. It's cooldown is only 15 seconds. This build gives you excellent healing, while picking up Seal of Command for dps.
With that build, you've got judgements on an 8 second timer, Seal of Command for burst dps, holy shock for burst dps, and incredible healing. You can use Divine Favor to either give yourself a free heal or force a Holy Shock crit for additional damage on an enemy.
You miss out on the 41 point holy talent, but in my opinion it's simply not that great anyway. at most, it saves you 500 or 600 mana, which is hardly anything for a skill with a 3 minute cooldown you have to give up Seal of Command to get.
In fact, after speccing that out for you, I'm about to go respec my paladin to that and try it out. 
The improved Holy Light and whichever talent reduces interrupts are pretty much so useful as to be mandatory. When I get to 70, I will make sure to have Crusader Strike by then, so I can strike faces.
I did consider trying for "Captain... America!" just to play with, if I ever got around to playing on the PTR. (I'm referring to the new 41-point Protection talent)
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We were all impressed when Zaeron wrote:
However, might I suggest an alternative? With the changes to Holy Shock, it's now a viable damage talent. It's cooldown is only 15 seconds. This build gives you excellent healing, while picking up Seal of Command for dps.With that build, you've got judgements on an 8 second timer, Seal of Command for burst dps, holy shock for burst dps, and incredible healing. You can use Divine Favor to either give yourself a free heal or force a Holy Shock crit for additional damage on an enemy.
You miss out on the 41 point holy talent, but in my opinion it's simply not that great anyway. at most, it saves you 500 or 600 mana, which is hardly anything for a skill with a 3 minute cooldown you have to give up Seal of Command to get.
In fact, after speccing that out for you, I'm about to go respec my paladin to that and try it out.
I noted that on the Blizz forums, a few people had made posts about how well that type of build in particular was working.
Might just try that even though I'd prefer a SMASH WITH HAMMER build. I also like how that build has room for growth with TBC. Sanctity Aura looks like it could boost it nicely.
Edit: Must try. Try harder. To not sound like. William Shatner. Willias fucked around with this message on 12-27-2006 at 09:46 PM.
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Naimah wrote their words upon the rocks;
The first thing to know about paladins is to take nothing Mightion says as being worthwhile.
Probably a good idea. I haven't seen all that much of the high-end game.
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And the Replyobots combined to form Sakkra, who roared:
Mightion spends all his time in Goldshire trying to pick up HOT CHIX to cyber for golds.
I think they're put off by all the spikes on my charger. And not in a good way.
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Willias probably says this to all the girls:
I noted that on the Blizz forums, a few people had made posts about how well that type of build in particular was working.Might just try that even though I'd prefer a SMASH WITH HAMMER build. I also like how that build has room for growth with TBC. Sanctity Aura looks like it could boost it nicely.
It's a pretty nice build, but some of it is misguided. Too much healing not enough smashing for you, from the sounds of it. Here's a tweaked version with more hammering, more efficient healing.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sExhMxz0xsZZVf0t
If you've got some spellpower/intellect, here's probably the best way to be a pain in the ass.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=axEhMxu0ksxxGz
Holy Guidance + Seal of Righteousness are bugged, adding a shitton more damage than they're supposed to, so by snagging a shield and decent 1her, you can survive for hours while being a thorn in the side of everything within melee range.
And yes pay no attention to Mightion, he's just pussyhurt that everyone called him out on being a worthless walking set of plate.
Anyway, some questions about talents that you guys seem to be shying away from:
-Aura Mastery: Is 10 extra yards on auras just not that useful?
-Purifying Power: I can kinda understand this one. Where it's located in the tree makes it somewhat undesirable, but isn't Cleanse one of the most used Paladin spells?
Purifying Power is worthless, plain and simple. It's in an awful spot opposite of Holy Power, which is one of the many staples of the Holy tree.
Aura Mastery's a really solid talent, but you don't sound like the type of person who would get some use out of it.
Light's Grace and Sanctified Light are just absolute shit for PVP, sorry, that's how it works. 
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ArchAngel had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
I've been enjoying a Holy build recently that's a lot of fun (to me anyway... I like healing). I know you said you don't want to go that route, but I figured I'd take advantage of the thread to maybe get some feedback on my own build seen here.
It's a solid build. The only things I would change are:
Your points in Protection to pick up Guardian's Favor instead of +Armor, freeing up three points.
Drop one of those points into 2/2 Imp BoWisdom.
Toss the other two anywhere in Holy, at this point nowhere's any better than the other, except maybe Blessed Life which I just love.
hammerdins are the best.
unless you want a chargeadin those are a little hard to master.
Smiters can solo Uber Tristram like it ain't no thang
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Greenlit thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Hammerdins ain't shitSmiters can solo Uber Tristram like it ain't no thang
hammerdins is old school
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Greenlit was all like:
That 5% chance to crit is almost doubling your existing crit chance, unless you're full-on warrior geared. It is very nice. And if you don't realize the incredible benefit of Blessed Life, then I just can't help you.Purifying Power is worthless, plain and simple. It's in an awful spot opposite of Holy Power, which is one of the many staples of the Holy tree.
Aura Mastery's a really solid talent, but you don't sound like the type of person who would get some use out of it.
Light's Grace and Sanctified Light are just absolute shit for PVP, sorry, that's how it works.
And what do you mean by "Aura Mastery is a solid talent, but you don't sound like the type to get much use out of it?"
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Kegwen posted:
It really sounds you want to play a druid more than a paladin from what you're looking to do, but paladin is pretty cool too I guess
There are quite a few classes in WoW that bore the hell out of me.
Mage: Can't stand the amount of downtime the class suffers while solo.
Warrior: Just get bored with this one. Waiting for rage so I can actually do things other than auto attack puts me to sleep, especially at the low levels.
Hunter: Just boring and too easy.
Druid: Don't like warrior, so I don't care for bear form. Normal druid form is okay, but if you try to kill things in druid form alone, it takes quite a bit of time, or it takes quite a bit of mana. I do, however, like cat form. But then again, I like rogues.
I've tried a druid in the past, just didn't enjoy the class. Shaman is similar to druids IMO, and are far more my cup of tea.
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Willias Model 2000 was programmed to say:
So I'm looking for a spec for a paladin that will allow me to kick ass (as well as a paladin can) or... take it up the ass(!?) for as long as possible without dying, preferably without being completely forced into the "Jackass whispers, Y RN'T U HEALIN ME" scenario that I frequently experienced on my shaman on Zul'Jin.
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Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as Willias!
Warrior: Just get bored with this one. Waiting for rage so I can actually do things other than auto attack puts me to sleep, especially at the low levels.
Rogues also suffer from this. "OH GOD! WHY WON'T MY ENERGY TICK UP ONE MORE TIME SO I CAN KIDN--dead"
Currently I run this build;
It is mostly a raiding/pvp build, and it has a lot of good things to go along with it. Holy Shock is much better with the reduced cooldown, you also get redoubt which is amazing in pvp as well as guardian's blessing which is perhaps our best overall talent. The overall dps of this build is not at all bad, but will depend on how well geared you are. This type of build is much harsher if your gear is bad. The good news is that with Seal of Righteousness getting it's damage normalized for 2h weapons that it is a much more viable sub for Seal of Command. Not in the same league mind you, but much much better.
With the expansion I will be picking up:
3 Improved Righteous Fury (Paladins can tank in the expansion and this talent has an unlisted +2% mitigation on all damage per rank)
5 Benediction (For obivious reasons)
2 Improved Judgement (Seal of Vengeance demands to Judged every 8 seconds)
There are several really good builds floating around, standard retnoob 20/0/41 does a lot of damage right now. The bad news is that at level 70 it is not so much of a big improvement.
Seeing some 31/30/0 builds that abuse reckoning with SoR for amazing results. This is the build I used in beta until I got Seal of Vengeance, then it just didn't gel as much.
20/41/0 Captain America build is getting some play, but Avenger's Shield has a minimum range, in a nutshell it sucks.
For leveling though? I'd stick with a straight up ret build, and dip and play around in the other talent pools until you find something that works.
Enjoy!
If you seriously intend to never, ever heal, then you really don't need those talents I guess. But if you spend even some of your time healing, they'll make an incredible difference and really help you out. With Sanctified Light right now I have over a 20% crit chance on my Holy Light's, and after the first cast, I can spam away a 2.0 second heal that hits for over 3k on crits. I can't stress enough how helpful the -.5 second cast time thing is. It's just amazing.
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This one time, at Taeldian camp:
You're going to run into that with any class that can heal.
Yeah, I know.
Look, doing some healing doesn't bother me, but being regulated to only healing bores me quickly.
I loved my shaman because (until 60 anyway) I could do a little bit of everything in a group. Playing a paladin, I hope I could achieve the same level of effectiveness, just with less damage and more support.
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Willias - I really think taking Blessed Life over Light's Grace is a mistake. I realize that you don't want to heal all the time, but as a paladin, there are simply times you need to be healing, and that talent does more for our heals than practically any other talent in the game. Except possibly Sanctified Light which your build also skips =/If you seriously intend to never, ever heal, then you really don't need those talents I guess. But if you spend even some of your time healing, they'll make an incredible difference and really help you out. With Sanctified Light right now I have over a 20% crit chance on my Holy Light's, and after the first cast, I can spam away a 2.0 second heal that hits for over 3k on crits. I can't stress enough how helpful the -.5 second cast time thing is. It's just amazing.
How much of those heal crits are overhealing though? In general, WoW's healing game requires you to be more spammy with your heals, rather than go for huge ones. Or at least it's that way now.
I'm more curious as to how well a 2 second cast, 1.5k heal would do in PvP to be honest. I don't see how Flash of Light could be extremely useful there, seeing how it's done up to be a very efficient heal, but lacks any real bang. And in PvP, healing for as much as you can in as short a time span as you can becomes a much more important thing compared to PvE.
I suppose in the end, I'm just going to have to try these various builds out as I learn the character better.
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Densetsu wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Rogues also suffer from this. "OH GOD! WHY WON'T MY ENERGY TICK UP ONE MORE TIME SO I CAN KIDN--dead"
I actually enjoyed timing attacks along with the energy meter as a rogue.
I never downloaded one of those mods that sets up the little bar that lets you know when your energy will recharge another tick, I just kept up with the thing in my head.
I had a blast with the rogue class, even with a leveling build that had me focusing more on daggers and backstabs/ambushes compared to swords/maces and a combat spec which people usually say is easier.
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A sleep deprived Willias stammered:
How much of those heal crits are overhealing though? In general, WoW's healing game requires you to be more spammy with your heals, rather than go for huge ones. Or at least it's that way now.I'm more curious as to how well a 2 second cast, 1.5k heal would do in PvP to be honest. I don't see how Flash of Light could be extremely useful there, seeing how it's done up to be a very efficient heal, but lacks any real bang. And in PvP, healing for as much as you can in as short a time span as you can becomes a much more important thing compared to PvE.
I suppose in the end, I'm just going to have to try these various builds out as I learn the character better.
To be honest, I was speaking from a purely PVP perspective. Remember, that if you're holy specced, it's less a 1.5k heal and closer to a 2k heal even with only mediocre +healing. When I focus my heals on someone, it's nearly impossible to bring them down. In fact, in PVP, my healing's biggest weakness is the 2.5 seconds between when I see someone under attack and when my first heal hits them. Reducing that to 2 seconds is a HUGE difference. I can't even count the number of times I've switched healing targets, only to have someone die right as my heal finishes casting.
In a group PVP situation, knocking half a second off your heals is very significant.
But again, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who tends to act more as a healer than a damage dealer. Holy spec has the ability to deal some significant damage, but I rarely have time to use it to its full potential.
Re: Flash of Light, the only time I ever use it is when I'm trying to heal a mage, simply because anyhing but my fastest heal won't hit before he dies.
As far as PVE goes, you'll probably be using flash of light, and at that point talent choice matters a lot less than how much gear you have. Mana regen and +healing are way more important than pretty much anything else.
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Willias said this about your mom:
How about dis den?
No. 
First off, right now, decide whether you're using Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Command for damage. I'll give you a hint; if you want to kill someone, you use Command and a fuckoff big 2h.
With Command you don't want the spellpower/healing of Holy Guidance. It's just not as big of a benefit as +5% crit. Drop the five from Guidance and one from Aura Mastery - it's a better PVE than PVP talent anyway - and finish out Imp BoWisdom and Conviction.
And do not use Holy Light for healing in PVP unless you're bubbled. I don't care what Zaeron says about anything, it's a counterspell/kick/earth shock magnet. You will get interrupted. You will get spell locked. And then you will have upwards of ten seconds where you can do nothing but auto attack. Stick with flash heals.
quote:I will say there are exceptions to this just before some other idiots comes in here gunz blazin.
Greenlit.
And do not use Holy Light for healing in PVP unless you're bubbled. I don't care what Zaeron says about anything, it's a counterspell/kick/earth shock magnet. You will get interrupted. You will get spell locked. And then you will have upwards of ten seconds where you can do nothing but auto attack. Stick with flash heals.
Exceptions:
You are healing a plate class
AND
You are not within 30 yards of 4+ enemy players.
that's it, go home
quote:Fuck you, Mercurion is a rogue eating machine
Greenlit.
And if you're healing a plate class you are often shouting across the room, "Do you plan on killing these fucking rogues or just bruising them?"
It's just I'd rather hit clothies
THA NUMBERS ARE BIGGA 
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Greenlit was naked while typing this:
And do not use Holy Light for healing in PVP unless you're bubbled. I don't care what Zaeron says about anything, it's a counterspell/kick/earth shock magnet. You will get interrupted. You will get spell locked. And then you will have upwards of ten seconds where you can do nothing but auto attack. Stick with flash heals.
I disagree with this. For one, it's very easy to fake people out by starting a heal, then moving to stop it from finishing. For another, there are plenty of situations where a flash of light's 500 healing isn't enough. In fact, in 99% of the PVP situations I've been in, flash of light doesn't heal enough to matter. And usually, you have to spam it to make it work, and it's just as easy to counterspell you if you have to stand there and pump 8 flashes of light into a target just to keep him up when one holy light could have done the same thing.
But then again, when I played PVP I ran with a couple friends and the first thing they'd do is kill mages. I just wouldn't heal until they'd finished killing the mage, and if I really needed to heal before that, I'd either use flash heals or make damn sure the people near me couldn't interrupt.
Hammer of Justice is great for buying time to heal. Blessing of Protection works wonderfully against rogues. Shammies are touchy on the earthshock button, they're very easy to fake out. Mages without improved counterspell are the worst because they'll wait until they're sure you're healing, then hit it.
If you're healing with flash of light in group PVP, you might as well be dpsing.
only to put yourself on a global cooldown + the time of the 'real' heal
and then to find your intended heal target dead 
I don't know what kind of "group pvp" you ran in and I don't care what class your intended healing target is, focus fire will drop anything in a second if you're not sustaining HPs.
Maybe faking out mages is a good tactic for classes with GOOD quick heals, or damage shields... But as a Paladin I just cannot see it being relible enough, especially with the inconsistancies of PvP timing in WoW.
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Willias had this to say about Robocop:
There are quite a few classes in WoW that bore the hell out of me.Mage: Can't stand the amount of downtime the class suffers while solo.
Huh? I have less downtime with my mage than with my hunter. The free food and water makes soloing much easier. With an ice spec it is very easy to solo with little/no downtime.
