It's just insane to me that Jong-Il is so fervently pushing a program which will probably lead his country to war with, oh, damn near everybody.
Here's a question for people more in the know on current global politics: I know China has been right alongside the US and other nations in asking NK to dismantle its nuclear program, but isn't it also NK's ally? Where would the Chinese stand if the US and NK went to war?
That being said, I doubt that will last forever, or even last for the forseeable future. I'm somewhat disappointed the Chinese have failed to take a harder line with North Korea, but not suprised.
On the idea of the U.S. and NK going to war, I think it's an unfeasible policy at this time. The U.S. military is stretched pretty thin right now, and we have already managed to spend somewhere in the order of half a trillion dollars on military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. Furthermore, I don't believe that our CiC has the domestic support to invade anywhere that has not directly and demonstrably attacked the U.S.. I'm pretty certain that he would face censure.
This is troubling, but honestly Japan and/or China need to deal with this. (and of course South Korea) The United States simply doesn't have the resources at this time to do anything other than mediate perhaps. Even if the NK military would fall quickly, this is a population that has been indoctrinated for 40 years into believing their leader is a god. Although it wouldn't be as completely unworkable as somewhere like Iraq, (where cultural and national divisions make a unified, democratic country impossible) the only way I can see to pacify a post-communist North Korea would be some kind of unification of the Korean Peninsula.
Also, this puts further pressure on S. Korea and even Japan to develop their own nuclear capabilites, leading to a nuclear arms race and even further instability in NE Asia.
Alaan fucked around with this message on 10-09-2006 at 12:57 AM.
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x--CallalronO-('-'Q) :
Yes, for the last few years the South Koreans have adopted what is called the "Sunshine Policy" towards North Korea. This amounts to an "all-carrot-no-stick" diplomatic effort. Apparently they feel that if they give the North enough stuff, it'll eventually pay dividends back to them. So far, they're still waiting.
Welcome to the UN approach to dictators.
Of course, the UN is comprised in no small part of dictators, so that should be no real surprise.
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Callalron enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Yes, for the last few years the South Koreans have adopted what is called the "Sunshine Policy" towards North Korea. This amounts to an "all-carrot-no-stick" diplomatic effort. Apparently they feel that if they give the North enough stuff, it'll eventually pay dividends back to them. So far, they're still waiting.
IIRC there are a lot (like a majority) of South Koreans who want to unify with North Korea, and isn't this policy supposed to amount to a show of good-faith to meet that end? I wish I could remember exactly what I read, but it included that the South Koreans are unhappy because they think the U.S. is interferring with their country.
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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Noxhil2 who doth quote:
IIRC there are a lot (like a majority) of South Koreans who want to unify with North Korea, and isn't this policy supposed to amount to a show of good-faith to meet that end? I wish I could remember exactly what I read, but it included that the South Koreans are unhappy because they think the U.S. is interferring with their country.
Ah yes as I recall a lot (like a majoirty) of South Koreans actually prefer brutal, fascist dictators.
"Soverignty and individual cognition overrated!" they say!
I did a brief search for some statstics of how the population feels, but came up empty-handed. That being said, why on earth would South Korea have a position of "Unification Minister," and furthermore constantly hold talks if they had no desire to unify.
And the idea that in the past they have been using aid because they are scared of North Korea isn't true, at least publicly. The Sunshine policy really was an attempt to bring the two economies and cultures closer together. The North Koreans hardly have the infrastructure to invade the a U.S.-backed South. Which explains the lack of urgency in their past negotiations; neither had the incentive to modify their respective positions, because there was no danger of immediate consequences.
I don't understand your comment about sovereignity. They would be more sovereign as a unified country than they are now. Right now in many ways they are just left over relics of a U.S.-Chinese(/communist) conflict, unable to truly craft their own policies, being so dependent on the U.S. and China.
I don't deny there is a ton of room for debate and/or discussion here, but incredibly rehased one-liners don't really add much.
"Unify with North Korea" implies unification without care of what it entails.
"Unify with North Korea under a form of government besides fascist dictatorship" would be a more apt description.
It's pretty apparent that even under your arguement, what South Korea wants is not going to happen. Mooj fucked around with this message on 10-09-2006 at 04:20 AM.
Neither outcome is likely to happen any time soon.
South Korea would agree to unification on their terms, or at least under terms which would involve Kim Jong Il having no part of the unification government beyond that of a Janitor in a file room at the department of sanitation.
North Korea would agree to unification on their terms, which involves Kim Jong Il sitting on the throne of the unification government as god of both countries with all the citizens throwing down their lives for him at his word, and mandatorily joining the military.
Unification, therefore, will not happen, no matter how much sunshine South Korea blows up North Korea's ass. North Korea will take everything they're being given as bribes, smile, and continue existing the way that they want to.
Make more sense?
My chances of being stoplossed just went up like a billion.
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Led had this to say about (_|_):
Oh christ.My chances of being stoplossed just went up like a billion.
For the non-military in the audience, "Stoplossed"? Definition please?
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Mooj said:
Let me simplify, then.South Korea would agree to unification on their terms, or at least under terms which would involve Kim Jong Il having no part of the unification government beyond that of a Janitor in a file room at the department of sanitation.
North Korea would agree to unification on their terms, which involves Kim Jong Il sitting on the throne of the unification government as god of both countries with all the citizens throwing down their lives for him at his word, and mandatorily joining the military.
Unification, therefore, will not happen, no matter how much sunshine South Korea blows up North Korea's ass. North Korea will take everything they're being given as bribes, smile, and continue existing the way that they want to.
Make more sense?
Oh, I completely agree, at least in the short-term as things stand. I don't think the South Koreans understood that their aid didn't really give Kim Jong II any impetus to unify, but for a while they felt it did. They have since abandoned that policy. Furthermore, I can't imagine anything that would cause South Korea to abandon its liberties and join the dictatorship in the North. It's far more likely that the North will collapse and then be annexed by the South. That's why the idea of a soft landing seems infeasible without different North Korean leadership.
That being said, I don't think the Koreans necessarily feel the same way. Nationalism is surely going to continue to rear its ugly head.
Edit: Rereading my posts I understand how they probably lead to some confusion Noxhil2 fucked around with this message on 10-09-2006 at 05:00 AM.
quote:
There was much rejoicing when Mooj said this:
For the non-military in the audience, "Stoplossed"? Definition please?
Me: "Yay, my four years is up! Time to go home!"
Them: "Haha no, you get to stay here for up to FOUR MORE YEARS if we feel like it!"
Me: "But I do not want to 
"
Them: "Too bad, so sad! 
"
We need our Led out of their when her time's up.Maybe...
Honestly being in the military is easier than shit. As long as you can take orders and have a good work ethic, it is easy street It only got easier the more rank I earned. Sure, I have to wake up at 5am and get off work at around 6pm, but being able to do whatever the hell I want with 95% of my paycheck is pretty cool ;P
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Led wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I dunno, lately I have been thinking about reenlisting.
....
Check your prospects for going Mustang, Outside of pay, my old man Quotes "Been on both sides, much better to be giving the orders than takening them"
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Peter said:
Check your prospects for going Mustang, Outside of pay, my old man Quotes "Been on both sides, much better to be giving the orders than takening them"
Would like to go the medical doctor route, except for the fact that no one will let me go. Oh well 
quote:
Led had this to say about John Romero:
I dunno, lately I have been thinking about reenlisting.Maybe...
Honestly being in the military is easier than shit. As long as you can take orders and have a good work ethic, it is easy street
It only got easier the more rank I earned. Sure, I have to wake up at 5am and get off work at around 6pm, but being able to do whatever the hell I want with 95% of my paycheck is pretty cool ;P
Make us proud. When Pyongyang falls, I want to see the banner of Lord Parcelan flying beneath the American flag.
The banner is still in the works, so for now just give Karnaj a roll of toilet paper and some spraypaint and let's see what happens.
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How.... Noxhil2.... uughhhhhh:
The North Koreans hardly have the infrastructure to invade the a U.S.-backed South. Which explains the lack of urgency in their past negotiations; neither had the incentive to modify their respective positions, because there was no danger of immediate consequences.
Uh, excuse me? The North Korean army is one of the largest in the world, with 1.2 million men under arms. Most of whom are parked within 70 miles of the DMZ. Just on sheer mass and inertia alone they are gonna lay waste to a good bit of South Korea, even if they don't manage to totally overrun the country. And given the fact we are somewhat busy in other parts of the world, military isn't going to be what it should, nor will it get there as fast.
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Bent over the coffee table, Callalron squealed:
Uh, excuse me? The North Korean army is one of the largest in the world, with 1.2 million men under arms. Most of whom are parked within 70 miles of the DMZ. Just on sheer mass and inertia alone they are gonna lay waste to a good bit of South Korea, even if they don't manage to totally overrun the country. And given the fact we are somewhat busy in other parts of the world, military isn't going to be what it should, nor will it get there as fast.
Besides, when they invaded and we started killing them in job lots due to their sucky equipment and lack of training, the same weepy-eyed liberals who blamed us for not being tough enough to stop them will start crying and moaning how it isn't fair to kill them just because they invaded and are trying to kill us.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Bloodsage had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Besides, when they invaded and we started killing them in job lots due to their sucky equipment and lack of training, the same weepy-eyed liberals who blamed us for not being tough enough to stop them will start crying and moaning how it isn't fair to kill them just because they invaded and are trying to kill us.
No kidding.
At the risk of sounding ignorant, whatever happened to the old "YAY GO MILITARY" days when everything we did was awesome and the civvies stayed on their side of the goddamn fence 
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Led was listening to Cher while typing:
At the risk of sounding ignorant, whatever happened to the old "YAY GO MILITARY" days when everything we did was awesome and the civvies stayed on their side of the goddamn fence
There are still enough brainless jingoists around to cheer on your killing as long as you contain it to people from across an arbitrary border, don't worry.
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Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Mod absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
There are still enough brainless jingoists around to cheer on your killing as long as you contain it to people from across an arbitrary border, don't worry.
And just as many spineless morons who'll cry and wring their hands and claim that love and happiness can change the world, because there's not really any such thing as a bad person, only misunderstood ones who'll instantly change their ways if given a hug and a warm, smurfy welcome since violence will just disappear from the world as soon as all the trustworthy countries disarm.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Led wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
No kidding.At the risk of sounding ignorant, whatever happened to the old "YAY GO MILITARY" days when everything we did was awesome and the civvies stayed on their side of the goddamn fence
Those days never existed aside from a short time after Pearl Harbor. It's called war wearyness; after years of any war without conclusion, the general population will begin to opposite military action more and more.
Has happened in every major war in our time for the most part.
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Reynar startled the peaceful upland Gorillas, blurting:
Those days never existed aside from a short time after Pearl Harbor. It's called war wearyness; after years of any war without conclusion, the general population will begin to opposite military action more and more.Has happened in every major war in our time for the most part.
People may not support "the war" in the abstract, but I still have people randomly buy me beers or say nice things out of the blue just because I'm military. Even in California. Even in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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How.... Bloodsage.... uughhhhhh:
People may not support "the war" in the abstract, but I still have people randomly buy me beers or say nice things out of the blue just because I'm military. Even in California. Even in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California.
Of course, just because people may not support the war doesn't mean they won't be supportive of your efforts.
You guys go where our leaders send you, and you go in knowing you can very well be killed on any given day -- to do that willingly earns plenty of respect in most peoples eyes.
But people can buy you guys beers and still not agree with what is going on.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
Besides, at this point in life, I'm one of the ones sending folks places. I'll never forget the time I had to call one of my folks at 0600 July 4th:
Me: "Dude, I need you to come into work. Now. With gear for at least a week. Tried to call last night but you were out."
Him: "Yessir. Uh, where am I going?"
Me: "Botswana. Yes, seriously. You catch a plane in 5 hours, and I need to tell you what's going on."
Poor guy had been out drinking all night and was hung over as all hell, but he ponied up without a whine.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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Callalron had this to say about John Romero:
Uh, excuse me? The North Korean army is one of the largest in the world, with 1.2 million men under arms. Most of whom are parked within 70 miles of the DMZ. Just on sheer mass and inertia alone they are gonna lay waste to a good bit of South Korea, even if they don't manage to totally overrun the country. And given the fact we are somewhat busy in other parts of the world, military isn't going to be what it should, nor will it get there as fast.
I thought best estimates gave NK enough supplies (ammo, food, fuel) for two to three weeks of sustained combat, barring what they are able to aquire from the invasion. Even ignoring the relative poor state of their forces (quantity over quality), it seems like the artillery they have pointed at SK would be more effective than the fighting men. Seoul alone would be flattened within 30 minutes of any actual declaration of war. Talonus fucked around with this message on 10-09-2006 at 04:32 PM.
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Talonus said:
How long until Japan announces a nuclear program? Bonus points if you can correctly guess whether they'll have a sucessful test 90 days, 3 months, or 6 months after the announcement. The new Japan prime minister isn't exactly the biggest fan of NK and Japan would most likely be able to assemble a nuclear program pretty quickly.I thought best estimates gave NK enough supplies (ammo, food, fuel) for two to three weeks of sustained combat, barring what they are able to aquire from the invasion. Even ignoring the relative poor state of their forces (quantity over quality), it seems like the artillery they have pointed at SK would be more effective than the fighting men. Seoul alone would be flattened within 30 minutes of any actual declaration of war.
I don't know, I can't decide between 90 days and 3 months.
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Arttemis had this to say about Captain Planet:
I don't know, I can't decide between 90 days and 3 months.
Bastard. Caught it right before I spotted the mistake and changed it to 30 days, which is what I meant to put.
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Mod impressed everyone with:
There are still enough brainless jingoists around to cheer on your killing as long as you contain it to people from across an arbitrary border, don't worry.
Shit, always a catch
