So, this raises a few questions. First, what does it take to qualify as an officially-recognized religion? I would think that numbers play a factor, because there definitely is a certain lower limit for minorities before you really start cowtowing to them.
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The department has approved the symbols of 38 other faiths; about half of are versions of the Christian cross. It also allows the Jewish Star of David, the Muslim crescent, the Buddhist wheel, the Mormon angel, the nine-pointed star of Bahai and something that looks like an atomic symbol for atheists.
There are only about 10,000 Bahai'i in the United States, near as I can figure. Of those, how many serve in the military? Also, when the hell did atheists get a symbol? Did I miss that at our most recent secret meeting, where we plan to kill God and take over the world? What's wrong with putting the seal of the branch they served in, or the seal of their home state?
Whatever. Point is this: if numbers play into it, there are certainly more Wiccans that Bahai'i.
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"It's such a clear First Amendment issue, I can't even conceive of why they are not granting it, except for political reasons," he said. "I think the powers that be are afraid they'll alienate conservative Christians if they approve a symbol that connotes witches and warlocks casting spells and brewing potions."
That's more or less what I think is up. Or, worse yet, a widow of a Christian soldier visits the marker next to that one, sees what she thinks is a pentagram next to her husband's plaque, and flips a shit.
Finally, this got me thinking about what makes a religion. I think, at its core, it's just that a group of people share at least one common, unique belief about something supernatural. Maybe it's not even that; maybe it's just that a number of people profess to be a specific religion, so the religion exists.
I dunno, the whole thing is kinda shitty. Christian, Wiccan, or atheist, they all were remarkably brave and true patriots. If it was their last wish, they should be able to get a naked woman engraved on their plaque.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
I know tons of people who call themselves 'Wiccan.' Half of them believe themselves to be pagan, more think that they're vampires, werewolves, magicians...it goes on.
The point being that it can be hard to decide what's mainstream or acceptable when it comes to something as broad and vague as Wicca.
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
And possibly weirding out another mourner isn't a good enough excuse for not honoring a soldier's grave request. It's not like it's a giant dong, it's a symbol of faith.
While a relatively minor issue (and I do know that some Wiccans can blow these issues WAY out of proportion), it kind of jams in the craw.
That's what a fool believes.
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
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Fazum'Zen Fastfist spewed forth this undeniable truth:
It might also be disconcerting to Christian soldiers' families when they look next to their dad's tomb stone and get a nice eyeful of pentacle/pentagram.
Why should a non christian be forced to see crosses next to their loved ones graves? You are putting one religion above another with no basis.
Bahai'i is one of the 5 religions specifically mentioned at Navy Boot camp. (Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Bahai'i and... there was one other) There are 6 million Bahai'i in the world right? Size of a religion shouldn't be a factor if there is a reasonably uncontested symbol for it.
Gains, not every wiccan is some idiot who wants an excuse to be different. I server with one in our my department and you would have no idea he is any particular religion if he hadn't been near ground zero of one of my "conversations" about religion with my very fundamental southern baptist friend.
Or in short, there are posers everywhere.
I'd want 
I trust you JJF.
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How.... Naimah.... uughhhhhh:
Why should a non christian be forced to see crosses next to their loved ones graves? You are putting one religion above another with no basis.
My basis is that I hate Wicca more than Christianity. Yes I realize the moral shortsightedness of this statement, so you don't need to mention that either.
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
The big problem with Wicca and legitimacy is that Wicca can't prove it's origins aren't wholly artificial. They claim this lineage to witches of the past, and there are quasi-celtic aspects to their practices, but the druids and shamans of the Isles wouldn't recognize Wicca. Likewise, there's no core central elements to the faith. As for the pentacle...well...suck it up. An artificial religion picks an arcane symbol singled out as being tied into naughtiness, it should be prepared to reap the consequences. In any case, Wiccans shouldn't act like they're talking for all pagans. And surely there has to be another symbol. Technically the swastika also had another life in the past as the "broken cross" in Christian symbology, but I wouldn't think people would like to see that on a gravestone, even if it WAS a legitimate dealie.
Personally I don't think it's THAT big a deal, though.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael put down Tada! magazine long enough to type:
I would think it would be important to separate Wicca and Paganism. Paganism is, technically, non-christian. Hindu people are pagan. Buddhists, Taoists, etc are pagan. So people saying "Oh I'm a pagan" isn't telling me anything. Sort of hiding. If you worship Thor or Zeus, don't make me think it's a fad thing by hiding it. Tell me.The big problem with Wicca and legitimacy is that Wicca can't prove it's origins aren't wholly artificial. They claim this lineage to witches of the past, and there are quasi-celtic aspects to their practices, but the druids and shamans of the Isles wouldn't recognize Wicca. Likewise, there's no core central elements to the faith. As for the pentacle...well...suck it up. An artificial religion picks an arcane symbol singled out as being tied into naughtiness, it should be prepared to reap the consequences. In any case, Wiccans shouldn't act like they're talking for all pagans. And surely there has to be another symbol. Technically the swastika also had another life in the past as the "broken cross" in Christian symbology, but I wouldn't think people would like to see that on a gravestone, even if it WAS a legitimate dealie.
Personally I don't think it's THAT big a deal, though.
Um, all religions are wholly artificial. Despite numerous claims to the contrary, every single religion ever practiced is the product of some guy with a vivid imagination and the ability to tell a good story, or steal someone else's story and change it a bit. The only difference between Wicca and most others is that it's pretty new.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about pies:
Technically the swastika also had another life in the past as the "broken cross" in Christian symbology, but I wouldn't think people would like to see that on a gravestone, even if it WAS a legitimate dealie.
The swastika has a long, long history, and is still used to this day by Buddhists and Hindu. They're not going to let a few years of death and hate ruin a symbol they've used for millenia. 
And I know what the swastika is used for. I GUARANTEE you, however, that people would be touchy about officially recognizing it as something positive that you'd want to put on a headstone.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Karnajing:
Um, all religions are wholly artificial. Despite numerous claims to the contrary, every single religion ever practiced is the product of some guy with a vivid imagination and the ability to tell a good story, or steal someone else's story and change it a bit. The only difference between Wicca and most others is that it's pretty new.
Wicca also isn't an organized faith. It's more like voodoo in that it's got no religious texts and no agreed upon tenets, it's just a hodgepodge of superstitions roughly organized around old druidic beliefs.
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Quoth Maradon!:
Wicca also isn't an organized faith. It's more like voodoo in that it's got no religious texts and no agreed upon tenets, it's just a hodgepodge of superstitions roughly organized around old druidic beliefs.
Tangential to druidic beliefs, anyway, but with a large leavening of modern conceptions about what medieval conceptions of magic must have been and a pinch of unleaded Aleister Crowley. It's the Diet Coke of mysticism, whereas the New Age crystal stuff is the Diet Decaffeinated Coke of mysticism.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael was naked while typing this:
I understand all religions are artificial. But at least they generally have centuries of people who died for them and so forth. There's reason to be touchy about insulting someone, in the very least. Wicca got an upswing in the 90's, unfortunately (for the true believers) largely because of rebellious kids.
I'm going to credit this as moot. The point of dying in the American military is that you're dying for America, not for your faith.
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Zephyer Kyuukaze wrote:
The swastika has a long, long history, and is still used to this day by Buddhists and Hindu. They're not going to let a few years of death and hate ruin a symbol they've used for millenia.
As far as the swastika goes, it was was and is used by more than just Buddhists and Hindu's. You forgot to mention the Celts, the Greeks, the Hittites, and Asatru (Nordic Religion), and it also occurs in other Asian, European, African and Native American cultures – sometimes as a geometrical motif, sometimes as a religious symbol. Personally I lean more towards norse since Hitler was trying to use nordic history to bring about a strong cultural pride.
As far as religion in the military, I had to be known as Pagan because they didn't recognize my religion, and they still don't. I feel sorry for this guy's family because he died in the line of duty and he won't be granted his rights because of this.
Hell, they have prayer in a lot of formal ceremonies. In boot camp, I remember a chaplain coming in and asking us all to bow our heads to give prayers to God, and all the while, I was getting a bit steamed at having to be made to do so, being athiest myself, and I knew that about 30% of my division were other than Christian.
Whole point of this post is just to say that while religion is not 'technically' mandated, it still manages to appear in a lot of supposedly religioun neutral places. And while this happens, the more controversial beliefs with never be officially recognized if they present a view that offends the mainstream.
Every Awards Ceremony.
I've had 2 people scream at me to stop talking about god while talking to a SB friend of mine. 3 people have made attempts to interrupt berthing based religous discussions. One officer told us how if he worship'd this cookie then there wasn't anything you could do to stop him.
We have, to my knowledge, 3 atheists, an agnostic, a shaolin buddist, a "freethinker" who kind of made up his own religion, and a wiccan. Then the other 120 people in the department, I dont know about.
You asatru UBT? I have a friend who is a gothei (spelling bad, they pronounced it GO-thee) Lots of drinking and toasting gods when I spent yule with him and his family.
Azakias, the less mainstream religions will be recognized eventually. Who would have imagined the gay rights bit 20 years ago? Who is going to think a dead grave with a pentacle is odd 50 years from now.
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Elvish Crack Piper wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Every Night. 2155 Sharp.Every Awards Ceremony.
I've had 2 people scream at me to stop talking about god while talking to a SB friend of mine. 3 people have made attempts to interrupt berthing based religous discussions. One officer told us how if he worship'd this cookie then there wasn't anything you could do to stop him.
We have, to my knowledge, 3 atheists, an agnostic, a shaolin buddist, a "freethinker" who kind of made up his own religion, and a wiccan. Then the other 120 people in the department, I dont know about.
You asatru UBT? I have a friend who is a gothei (spelling bad, they pronounced it GO-thee) Lots of drinking and toasting gods when I spent yule with him and his family.
Azakias, the less mainstream religions will be recognized eventually. Who would have imagined the gay rights bit 20 years ago? Who is going to think a dead grave with a pentacle is odd 50 years from now.
What is written in the instructiuon is naturally the rules. The instruction is a neutral ground when it comes to religion.
Alas, though, not everything written on paper becomes everyday reality. I could claim that my left pinkie toe was the second messiah, and technically, the military would have to tolorate me as long as it did not interfere with my duties.
Unfortunately, the military is not an entity of itself, but of the people who are within the organization. No matter what the rules say, you cannot hide your biases completely, which was the point I was trying to make.
Those who interrupted you when you talked about god were entirely within their rights. I'll not go as far to say that religioun has no place in the military, because several chaplains would be out of a job if that were the case, but in the workcenter, there is no reason others should have to be made to listen to theological discussion. On the same note, you could ask an athiest to refrain from talking about their views. Hell, a friend and I were debating abortion the other day and a guy asked us to stop. It doesnt just pertain to religioun, but to all controversial topics.
And frankly, if gay marriage is legal in 20 years, good on it. But that is 20 years away, not the here and now. As it stands, the people in the military are far from neutral on controversial topics and that will never change. People who believe in one thing will always have bias against those who believe in another, whether they show it or not, and whether it is agaisnt the rules or not.
Back to the main topic, I personally think that this guy should be allowed the symbol on the tombstone. There's no reason that other mourners should be getting up in arms and suppressing the rights of one family over another, simply because one belief is more prevelant than the other.
Sorry for the atrocious spelling. I'm tired and I go to work in 2 hours.
I protrayed my point badly with the gay thing, how about stuff that was controversial and offensive and is now completely normal.
Protestants and Catholics marriage used to be controversial, and offensive to the mainstream. Turn of the Century. Morality issue to Christians.
Black and White people marrying used to be controversial, and offensive to the mainstream. Civil Rights era. Morality issue to Christians.
Black people, and girls in entirety, voting was controversial.
If anyone who was offended got an immediate stop to it, we wouldn't have any minority oppinion, we wouldnt' have social change, we would lose progress.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Elvish Crack Piper absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
Don't have access to a bar, or much in the way of off duty time while on deployment 'sage. We were technically in the workplace, in the ships middle hanger bay waiting around for an unrep to start. Please keep in mind, we get up multiple hours early to set up for these, and then sit around for 2+ hours with very little to do. Not like we had any work to do, so we talked, and the conversation went from comics, to next port call (malaysia, cool place), to religion, insert screaming person.
I understand the conditions quite well. . .and that still doesn't make religion or politics or sex or suchlike appropriate topics of conversation. Trust me on this one. The person who asked you to stop was perfectly correct.
So neener.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Elvish Crack Piper's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Don't have access to a bar, or much in the way of off duty time while on deployment 'sage. We were technically in the workplace, in the ships middle hanger bay waiting around for an unrep to start. Please keep in mind, we get up multiple hours early to set up for these, and then sit around for 2+ hours with very little to do. Not like we had any work to do, so we talked, and the conversation went from comics, to next port call (malaysia, cool place), to religion, insert screaming person.
There a Chapel on that bigass boat? Last I knew, they all had nondenom chapels on them. Guess why.
They had a kent hovind video lecture series played up here that somewhere between 20 and 40 attended in a 6 week period. I didn't know who he was at that point, but it was still pretty offensive and the idea that he is going to be stuck in a jail cell for a very long time twinges the less humane aspects of myself, but that is not really the point.
Kaiote, what do you think would happen to me if I got into a religious discussion in the chapel. Bear in mind please, that my friend and discussion partner is a very loud southern baptist type who will interject loud "Your going to motherfucking hell allen" or "The devil is tricking you" or "God is using your atheism" or some such comments.
Do I mind people who already know me from knowing I am an atheist? No. Do I want some weird preconceived notions of atheism to be applied to myself? No. I already had brand new seaman saying I had no basis for morality because I wasn't a christian. I have others confused about why I cant respect god for all the help he's given us. If people who know me think that I am a lesser person for not being a christian, what hope do I have that random strangers aren't going to unfairly ostracize me for that? I prefer to keep it in the closet until I had a friendship with someone, since a large amount of people on board are christian.
Sage, I agree with the sex comment. I don't mind someone talking about dating, but I don't want the between daylight info. Has happened, never been stopped, leadership was talking about it, even after our 1st class was discharged because of sexy emails. Politics, I dont know too well, and have not read in the manner as I have on religion. I know my dad told me that the only thing you don't talk about with strangers is politics and religion, that it causes hot tempers and whatnot.
This isnt the first religious discussion we've had. Even in off-hours people harrassed us for even talking about it. The time during the unrep that I was "asked to stop" by small girl screaming at me. We talked religion at unreps before and after that. It was one girl, one time, who had a problem with it. Should the freedom of speech apply only to acts that no one cares about?
Sage I understand that your up for Colonel and all, that you probably think its a bad topic to discuss, and your probably right in that its not a topic everyone wants to hear, but how much power should one person have over a group talking about a given subject?
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Sage I understand that your up for Colonel and all, that you probably think its a bad topic to discuss, and your probably right in that its not a topic everyone wants to hear, but how much power should one person have over a group talking about a given subject?
It's not about somebody having power over you, nor about your right to free speech, which you largely signed away when you enlisted, but about good order and discipline. You just need to face the fact that you're not at liberty to discuss whatever you want when you want anymore. It's not that this other person was being mean for shutting down your conversation; you and your buddy were breaking any number of rules by discussing religion while on duty and in uniform.
It's not in the interest of good order and discipline to allow at-work discussions of hot-button topics, much less when it could give the appearance that the military endorses things that it does not or should not. There are plenty of things to talk about besides religion, and nobody in uniform should be trying to talk anybody into or out of a particular faith.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
We are in uniform at all times unless we are sleeping or doing PT. I can't talk about religion for the vast majority of a six month period? Pre-Unrep time, I could argue, stretches the line between at-work.
I'm sorry, I think of the Colonel bit as you having more an outlook that my actual Captain might. Not a "rank makes right" but a "rank makes expieriences, with talent points applied to military leadership pool" In regards to military policy, you are most likely the most knowledgeable person on the boards.
The military already endorses religion. I know of at least 8 people in my department of 140 that are athiests, or some sort of non-christian religion, but only 1 other person in departmental quarters didn't just bow head down while the chaplain came to pray to god to thank him for a good deployment.
I dont think the military, at least the navy, does a good job distinguishing itself from christianity. What with daily prayers, prayer at ceremony, numerous daily services that just happen to only include christian services, video lectures from a creationist in the chapel.
No one cared about when or where or with who I discussed it, but simply that I discussed it. I have had discussion in my off-time that people attempted to end by being rude.
Find another topic of discussion. Or, if you really can't live without such discussions, take classes in philosophy that let you write papers about it.
As for the military not endorsing religion, your perspective is skewed. It doesn't. Just because you don't see people not bowing their heads during the non-denominational prayers at certain occasions doesn't mean the military is forcing anyone to be religious. The fact remains, however, that the vast majority of military people are religious in one manner or another, and there is a rather close historical signficance between military service and the need for religion of whatever type, since that service is a deliberate risking and potential taking of life, making it pretty much by definition a religious/moral undertaking.
Honestly, the only rude intolerant person I've seen described in any of your stories is you, for insisting that you be allowed to inflict religious discussions on others at the workplace, where it is not appropriate and where it is clearly against the interests of good order and discipline. When you're in uniform, you have certain constraints on your behavior--and it doesn't really matter that you live in your uniform six months at a time in close proximity to many other people; in fact, it reinforces my point.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
This is the longest-running joke that Evercrest has ever seen.
Parcelan, Why would I lie about being in the navy? If you need some sort of confirmation, feel free to send me an email at allenjc@cvn76.navy.mil
Non-Denominational Prayer is still a christian prayer.
Inflicting religious discussions on others? I dont go up to people and argue with them. There is a group of people with whom I have had religious discussion with. Some of them on a fairly frequent basis, and on an entirely consensual basis. The only problems that have occured have been people outside the conversation who cannot stand the idea of the conversation.
I understand what you are saying about "Good Order and Discipline", and if I come off as intolerant and rude, then I need to re-evaluate myself. Your word alone has enough credibility that I know you are speaking the truth. I dont want to admit that to myself.
Please let me apologize for any offense.
ECP
