0/20/31 for Lightning Reflexes and Wyvern Sting.
What do y'all think? What ideas do you folks have for a 1.7 hunter spec?
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
If you are going to PvP a lot, then CA may be the way to go, but it currently requires 15 points in the Survival tree, and beastmastery is where the heart of your damage is in solo PvP. If you group a lot MM is great even in PvP since MM is where all the real strong ranged damage comes from.
I was real excited about the new changes, but since I only play my hunter for MC/Onyxia's lair and no where else, I don't plan on changing from my build all that much.
I have my job interview tommorow and she told me I pretty much already have the job. 
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Delidgamond had this to say about Pirotess:
The only spec for Hunters.
IMP Hunters mark = Suck. I only use Hunters mark in MC to show all the noobs which mob is going down first. For some reason it takes a debuff slot and is the last thing raid leaders want to see on a mob.
I am weird, but I wouldn't put too many points into imp traps. I'd do the 5/5 in entrapment because it helps in PvP.
With the resist rate of FD as what it is, there is no reason that you shouldn't get it if you are speccing so far into survival. If you have one mob coming at you, it is very probable it won't get resisted. Have 10 mobs runnning at you, I guarantee it gets resisted. It only takes one mob to make it so it's resisted.
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Delidgamond was naked while typing this:
The only spec for Hunters.
Efficiency I don't presently have on my hunter and I just can't see anything to justify putting 5 points into it (Imp Concussive can be rather handy in PvP). Imp Hunter's Mark is only really valuable for use with Trueshot Aura to maximize ap (with 16 debuff slots available, I don't forsee much complaint about Hunter's Mark) and Trueshot seems rather underwhelming to me (I was leaning toward the 20/31 build, tbh; the other was just an option to promote some discussion and see what was best).
On the Survival side, I don't see much value in improving my traps as I don't use them much. Also, Counterattack seems like it'd be handy for escaping back to range if something gets too close (thus the points in Deflection instead of Entrapment). No reason I can see not to have Improved Feign Death...it gets resisted way too much in its unmodified state.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Addy obviously shouldn't have said:
I know a few hunters in my guild are thinking of going 5/31/15.
Right silly of them. The changes to Improved Aspect of the Hawk have to be some of the worst of all that they're making.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Tegadil had this to say about (_|_):
Personally, I'd take a 5% chance for a 30% haste over a 20 or so attack power increase.
In a build with Trueshot, the 20ish extra ap are actually worthwhile since it's 20 odd more on top of what Trueshot and Hunter's Mark already add. On the other hand, as the above posts evidence, there really isn't any compelling reason to put more than 20 points into MM. With the crit bonuses and agility that come from Survival talents, you'd wind up with somewhat less ap but more crit and the rather handy Wyvern Sting. Those builds don't leave room for a 5% proc that really wouldn't increase damage all that much.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Kuroi Madoushi was all like:
Right silly of them. The changes to Improved Aspect of the Hawk have to be some of the worst of all that they're making.
You're right, hunters who have been playing their character since release (and some of beta) and have done stuff even in BWL know nothing of their builds. It's silly!
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Addy had this to say about Pirotess:
I know a few hunters in my guild are thinking of going 5/31/15.
Wasn't that the magic build even before the changes were made? I know I was 5/31/15 on my Hunter from the getgo 
The way I see it, Wyvern Sting will be helpful for pre-endgame instance pulling, but then back to the usual schtick for raid crap.
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Cobalt Katze enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Wasn't that the magic build even before the changes were made? I know I was 5/31/15 on my Hunter from the getgoThe way I see it, Wyvern Sting will be helpful for pre-endgame instance pulling, but then back to the usual schtick for raid crap.
Yeah but you're smart, a lot of hunters aren't.
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Addy had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
You're right, hunters who have been playing their character since release (and some of beta) and have done stuff even in BWL know nothing of their builds. It's silly!
Granted, my knowledge of the class pales when compared to that of someone who has been playing the class so long, but logic and numbers are not affected by experience. A 1 in 20 proc for 30% attack speed doesn't seem as valuable as, say, an additional 4% reduction in resists of Feign Death and the bonus Surefootedness grants. This assuming one retains the 31 points in Marksmanship.
From where I and what seems like a fair number of others are standing, the talent modifications to the Survival tree are significantly more compelling than those in the Marksmanship tree. Let's assume a hunter has...300 agility (I know this is probably low, perhaps someone can provide me a more accurate number?). Putting points into talents as the above specs (all heavy into Survival) suggest, a hunter with 300 agility would gain 90 ap and .9% crit (50 agi per crit for hunters, no?) from Lightning Reflexes alone. Add to that another 3% crit from Killer Instinct and yet another 3% on most enemies from the Slaying talents at the top of Survival...that's 6.9% to go with Lethal Shots. Getting those benefits will require 30 points into Survival. Given these things, putting 5 points into a talent that will only increase attack speed 5% of the time seems rather silly (especially since, in that particular build, it'd sacrifice the 30% crit damage increase from Mortal Shots). Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 12:43 AM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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A 1 in 20 proc for 30% attack speed doesn't seem as valuable as, say, an additional 4% reduction in resists of Feign Death and the bonus Surefootedness grants. This assuming one retains the 31 points in Marksmanship.
You might be legally retarded.
Please. Stop. Posting.
It's not something people hear about.
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This insanity brought to you by JooJooFlop:
If I were to spec primarily into Survival I would have to give up:An instant cast 4-second confusion shot (unless I give up Wyvern Sting) +15% damage to Multi-shot and Volley (the former is extremely useful in PvP) +5% ranged weapon damage A +100 (I'm assuming for rank 3) attack power aura
Quite true. Wasn't quite prepared to going into full comparison of the two trees. In retrospect, it may have been wiser to do so as these things cause some hemming and hawing for me too (though I still favor the Surival build despite that). Just for the sake of conversation (and so I can gather some more information on the subject):
At this point I'm going to say that I've taken far too hard a line for someone with so little experience with the class. This post and the ones following are purely for the sake of conversation and so I can get a better view of which talents to choose and why. I'll try to tone it down. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 01:18 AM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Sean thought about the meaning of life:
You might be legally retarded.Please. Stop. Posting.
a+++++++++++ would do business with again
Stop posting until you know wtf you're talking about. Let's play the number game since you seem so fond of it. Instead of spending points for the 5% Aspect of the Hawk talent, you would rather spend points into a lowered 4% resist rate for Feign Death. Did you know that 5% > 4%? Also, here's something clever: did you know that when Aspect of the Hawk's speed increase is active, you will probably have a 30% higher chance of activating it again due to your attack speed increase? Fuck, I don't claim to know much about hunters but I can at least grasp that. Also, if you've played WoW at all you'd realize that 5% procs go off a decent amount. Granted, I'm melee so it goes off a bit more for me. However, seeing how fast hunters' bows can be (since fast > slow is generally the key for PVE), it'll go off a bit. It'll still go off a bit with a slow bow. You say 1 in 20 shots like it takes hours to fire those 20 shots, while in reality it's like a minute, if not even that.
There's a reason why most hunters are sticking with trueshot aura. Here's a hint: it's a party buff. Meaning that 100 AP is for EVERYONE IN YOUR GROUP. not only are you increasing your own attack power, you are upping your rogue's and warrior's. So hm, would you take that 100 AP for the whole group or 120 AP for yourself?
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Addy wrote this stupid crap:
*snip*
Ok, to start with, 5% weapon proc rate and 4% lowered chance of FD resist cannot be compared so that arguement is thrown out. Next, we'll use Striker's Mark and Ancient Bone Bow for examples for raw numbers:
Equations based on weapon speed adjusted by a Quickdraw Quiver.
Striker's Mark 2.5*.87=2.18 60/2.18=27.52~28 shots per minute 2.18*.7=1.53 8/1.53=5.23~5 shots for duration of Imp AotH proc. Take 8 seconds worth of shots out of 28 to accurately calculate the increase per minute: 52/2.18=23.85~24 24+5=29 One additional shot per minute for Strikers Mark.
Ancient Bone Bow2.8*.87=2.44 60/2.44=24.59~25 shots per minute 2.44*.7=1.71 8/1.71=5.68~5 shots for duration of Imp AotH prc. Take 8 seconds worth of shots out of 25 to accurately calculate the increase per minute: 52/2.44=21.31~21 21+5=26 One additional shot per minute for Ancient Bone Bow.
Adding Eaglehorn Long Bow as an example as it's a much faster weapon:
Eaglehorn Long Bow 1.8*.87=1.57 60/1.57=38.22~38 shots per minute 1.57*.7=1.1 8/1.1=7.27~7 shots for the duration of Imp AotH proc. Take 8 seconds worth of shots out of 38 to accurately calculate the increase per minute: 52/1.57=33.12~3 33+7=40 Two extra shots per minute for Eaglehorn Long Bow.
So, for weapons the speed of Striker's Mark and Ancient Bone Bow, the chance a just slightly over one proc per minute giving about 2 extra shots. With faster bows like Eaglehorn Long Bow or Hurricane, it's about twice per minute giving a possible 4 extra shots. I personally am not impressed with this when compared to the better survivability added by Improved Feign Death and Surefootedness.
As for the ap bonus to the group vs. ap bonus to self, I spend 90% of my time soloing and, therefore, it is more productive to go for boosts for myself; the outlook presented here reflects that (also, it should be pointed out the warriors and rogues are typically out of range of the aura in my experience). Note also that the 100 vs. 105 ap bonus comparison is entirely speculation since 1. No one yet knows what the top level Trueshot Aura will give yet and 2. 350 is a conservative ballpark estimate for how much agi the average hunter has.
Again, posting for the sake of discussion and information gathering. I'm going on logic and statistics rather than experience so it's a bit skewed. If you want to call me retarded, please show some reasons, else you're really no better than me. Addy > Sean as she supports her arguements. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 02:27 AM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Hurricane - 1.6 aspd, I'm at 1.42 aspd with my level 40 quiver. It drops down to 1.02 aspd with rapid fire (40% aspd boost for 15 seconds).
CSC - This xbow is all about the high end crits you get from aimed shot and multi shot, but since they are taking away some of our awesome crit damage next patch, it isn't as viable to me. With my quiver it's at 2.92 aspd and with rapid fire it's at 2.09 aspd.
Let's say I'm at 1.1 aspd when the new AotH procs. That means I'll get off 7 shots before the proc ends. Since it's in a 1/20 proc, I'm assuming it will proc off of specials (arcane, aimed, multi), that means I can realiably get off about 10 shots in that 8 second period. With that, and saying it won't proc until you shoot 20 times, It will proc for me once every 20-25 seconds. It may not be useful in places like strath/scholo, but in MC and Ony where fights last over 10 minutes, that's extremely helpful.
Hunters are complaining that the new AotH sucks. The old one added only 1.(something) DPS anyways. Trueshot aura at rank 3 (if it does at 100) will go from only 60 ap (just over 4 extra dps) to 100 ap (around 7 dps). That alone makes up for this nerf and AotH is a tier one talent, which makes it extremely easy to get.
Hell, I've been talking to players who are going back to their precisely calibrated boomstick after the patch just to get this to proc more.
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Flea had this to say about pies:
This is why I'm looking foward to the upcoming patch and I might pull my hurricane out of my bank and use it instead of my CSC.Hurricane - 1.6 aspd, I'm at 1.42 aspd with my level 40 quiver. It drops down to 1.02 aspd with rapid fire (40% aspd boost for 15 seconds).
CSC - This xbow is all about the high end crits you get from aimed shot and multi shot, but since they are taking away some of our awesome crit damage next patch, it isn't as viable to me. With my quiver it's at 2.92 aspd and with rapid fire it's at 2.09 aspd.
Let's say I'm at 1.1 aspd when the new AotH procs. That means I'll get off 7 shots before the proc ends. Since it's in a 1/20 proc, I'm assuming it will proc off of specials (arcane, aimed, multi), that means I can realiably get off about 10 shots in that 8 second period. With that, and saying it won't proc until you shoot 20 times, It will proc for me once every 20-25 seconds. It may not be useful in places like strath/scholo, but in MC and Ony where fights last over 10 minutes, that's extremely helpful.
Hunters are complaining that the new AotH sucks. The old one added only 1.(something) DPS anyways. Trueshot aura at rank 3 (if it does at 100) will go from only 60 ap (just over 4 extra dps) to 100 ap (around 7 dps). That alone makes up for this nerf and AotH is a tier one talent, which makes it extremely easy to get.
Hell, I've been talking to players who are going back to their precisely calibrated boomstick after the patch just to get this to proc more.
It's certainly an intriguiing debate. Folks here and here went much further than I did but the conclusions were roughly the same. Assuming it doesn't proc off specials, it's like 1 or 2 extra shots per minute. Not very compelling to me, but then, my main is a warrior. My thinking tends toward constant damage vs. a proc.
Someone in the first thread linked above pointed out that the Slaying talents at the top of Survival would also amount to around the same increase in damage as Imp AotH, though that'd be interesting to look into due to the much higher chance to crit (the idea being that you take these along with the usual Trueshot build).
Edit: The math in my last post is evidently a bit off due to how exactly the quiver speed increase is calculated. The results, however, are just about the same so I'm not going to bother going through to redo it all. >_< Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 02:56 AM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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In summary, normal combat condition will see about .7% dps increase. Long combat will see up to 5% dps increase.
-From first link
I acknowledged that the benefit to DPS in places like strath/scholo where things die very quickly would be negligable. IN MC, fights even against the trash mobs can last over minute. A 5% DPS is huge. 5% is much larger than the 1 DPS the old AotH gave. More DPS = things die quicker.
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Flea Model 2000 was programmed to say:
-From first linkI acknowledged that the benefit to DPS in places like strath/scholo where things die very quickly would be negligable. IN MC, fights even against the trash mobs can last over minute. A 5% DPS is huge. 5% is much larger than the 1 DPS the old AotH gave. More DPS = things die quicker.
True dat. Conclusion seems to be that dps with Imp AotH vs. dps with Slaying talents is about the same so it really amounts to preference. Though I'm not sure if that accounts for a Marksmanship build vs. a Survival build...not sure that it can just yet due to some ambiguity remaining about Survival talents.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Or, um.. I mean.. It'd be neat. Cheesy, but neat.
quote:you're a fag for even arguing this point? Seriously, who cares about solo talent builds.
Kuroi Madoushi.
As for the ap bonus to the group vs. ap bonus to self, I spend 90% of my time soloing and, therefore,
Raid or PvP (or hybrid) builds are what the smart people spec for at 60, seeing as there's NO REASON to solo at that point. And it's not like getting to level 60 is at all hard.
ps post your warrior's profile
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Blackened stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
you're a fag for even arguing this point? Seriously, who cares about solo talent builds.Raid or PvP (or hybrid) builds are what the smart people spec for at 60, seeing as there's NO REASON to solo at that point. And it's not like getting to level 60 is at all hard.
ps post your warrior's profile
Yep. If I wanted to solo, I'd do a full SM/Ruin build with nothing in demonology. (Random PvP isn't all too interesting).
However, my guild expects me to raid, so I had to pick up a bunch of talents that I don't nessicarily need (Intensity.. ugh) and PvP is more fun in AV, so I got the horrible CoEx. "Craimorenewb"
This is a pvp/dps raid hybird build- if I wasn't raiding, I'd take 31 survival. Lenlalron Flameblaster fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 12:44 PM.
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Delphi Aegis had this to say about (_|_):
Isn't wyvern sting pretty mean in and of the fact that a hunter can disengage, FD, sting, then time an aimed shot to hit almost directly after the wyvern sting hits?Or, um.. I mean.. It'd be neat. Cheesy, but neat.
Sting + freeze + freeze + immolation = win!
(assuming you're smart and cancel the dot when they get to the trap)
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Blackened said:
you're a fag for even arguing this point? Seriously, who cares about solo talent builds.Raid or PvP (or hybrid) builds are what the smart people spec for at 60, seeing as there's NO REASON to solo at that point. And it's not like getting to level 60 is at all hard.
ps post your warrior's profile
Group benefit from Trueshot end-game is generally a moot point. In my experience the hunters are all out of range of the melee for this ability and/or are placed all in the same group, negating any benefit that might be gained. Given this, I can see no reason to get the group ability when there's greater benefit elsewhere.
At this point, my warrior's spec is designed for damage. It's been tweaked a little bit to enhance dual wielding while still retaining MS. I've yet to see any compelling reason to switch my build; guilds I've raided with either already have protection tanks or have realized that protection isn't necessary.
Edit: I'm well aware of the necessity for raid specs for many classes. It seems to me that the only non-raid-suitable spec for hunters is Beast Mastery since hunters are there purely for dps and the pet dies too easily. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 02:45 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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This one time, at Inferno-Spirit camp:
Deep Wounds, Sweeping Strikes, and Mortal Strike are so much better with a two-hander and THWS than with two weapons and DWS.
Very true, but it's Impale I want and MS is a high damage instant swing that doesn't generate extra aggro. I tweaked it to favor dw because I was snapping aggro with my 2h in MC (lots of 1.5-2k crits on MS and normal swings). It's an experimental build, anyhow.
Edit: Oh snap. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 08-17-2005 at 03:07 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Kuroi Madoushi wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Very true, but it's Impale I want and MS is a high damage instant swing that doesn't generate extra aggro. I tweaked it to favor dw because I was snapping aggro with my 2h in MC (lots of 1.5-2k crits on MS and normal swings). It's an experimental build, anyhow.Edit: Oh snap.
I just see Bloodthirst as as good an option as Mortal Strike. Flurry replaces Sword Mastery (I'm not sure on the exact difference in dps, but they seem close) but no longer restricts weapon types, and Improved Berserker Rage is fucking love.
Deep Wounds is kind of universal though (Impale, and it's almost as good on 2H as 1H), so the 1H vs 2H thing for that I mentioned isn't important.
I prefer this build. I find that I use HS enough with all the crazy rage that IHS is worth it. I almost always stay in Berserker Stance(which is the only reason I don't have IOP). I can solo enemies at or below my level range almost indefinitely.
