(Sort of a crosspost of my reply to a D&D thread on SA)
Now. First of all, since we have weeded the nutjobs out now, it must stand to reason that the human mind, in the pseudo-soul sense, is a mix of electrical impulses and chemical reactions or whatever the hell the brain works by, it's largely inconsequential to this argument as long as it has a basis in science as opposed to SCIENCE.
Now if we define X as the current state of the brain, where the mind is based off, and we define Y as the current input being received and processed on some level, then we will always reach action Z. Never action B or action N, we will always reach action Z assuming X and Y and any other relevant factors are the same.
Which effectively makes the idea of free will silly. Free will is, in fact, entirely mystical and has a place only in SCIENCE or religion. Without some kind of divine randomizer or 'immortal soul' or other crap like that, it cannot exist because with enough information, you can precalculate any action.
bznizzle
Alright, I'm not saying that it isn't predetermined, much as the roll of a die is always predetermined. I'm saying that if you don't know the moment of inertia, torque, drag, and force applied to the die, you might as well consider it random. So while it's true that "random" does not exist, it will be a while before we can quickly and accurately predict the outcome. Snugglits fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 07:29 PM.
I guess on the large scale there's not really a sense of "free will," but individually, certainly. Humans do way too many nonsensical things to explain it away with science. Kait fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 07:27 PM.
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In a disastrous attempt to be funny and clever, Snugglits wrote:
Oh, yeah, it's that simple if you know the states, but that's the trick, isn't it?Alright, I'm not saying that it isn't predetermined, much as the roll of a die is always predetermined. I'm saying that if you don't know the moment of inertia, torque, drag, and force applied to the die, you might as well consider it random. So while it's true that "random" does not exist, it will be a while before we can quickly and accurately predict the outcome.
That's pretty much what I'm saying, yeah.
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Kait has a secret obsession with Richard Simmons, as evidenced by...
So the electrical impulses in your brain forced you to write this post, which talks about how your electrical brain impulses make you do things like write posts, such as...I guess on the large scale there's not really a sense of "free will," but individually, certainly. Humans do way too many nonsensical things to explain it away with science.
OUTTTTTTT Jensus fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 07:33 PM.
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How.... Jensus.... uughhhhhh:
OUTTTTTTT
Because you're right and I'm wrong? Because you said so? ...
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Kait has a secret obsession with Richard Simmons, as evidenced by...
Because you're right and I'm wrong? Because you said so? ...
Your argument is based on bullshit as opposed to reason and I don't want you in the thread.
Anything can be explained by science if you know all the factors, and if you believe otherwise, you damn well better explain why that is.
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Jensus obviously shouldn't have said:
Your argument is based on bullshit as opposed to reason and I don't want you in the thread.Anything can be explained by science if you know all the factors, and if you believe otherwise, you damn well better explain why that is.
As far as I know, you can't post a thread on a public forum and exclude certain people from responding to it simply because they disagree with you...but I'm not going to go into that...
Anyway, I meant modern science can't really explain everything about why we do what we do. There are random events in nature all the time that simply defy what we know of science. Maybe someday we can classify every synopsis that has and ever could exist, but as for now, we cannot. But I digress... If you really feel that free will is impossible, then I'm sorry for you, because that takes a lot of the fun out of life.
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Snugglits has a secret obsession with Richard Simmons, as evidenced by...
Though with quantum mechanics things do become somewhat more complicated. I'm going to chuck it up to our quantum mechanics system being very new still. With things like observed/unobserved phenomena you realize that maybe QM just has a few things left to work out still.
That's still assuming the brain works on a quamtum level, IF true randomness turns out to definitely exist in QM.
If that does happen though, I admit defeat. 
Unless you have some explanation for that, too.
p.s. I know where you're going and stuff, and it sort of makes sense, but there's got to be something you're overlooking, because things usually aren't so simple as "x + y = z." Suddar fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 08:01 PM.
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How.... Jensus.... uughhhhhh:
That's still assuming the brain works on a quamtum level, IF true randomness turns out to definitely exist in QM.If that does happen though, I admit defeat.
It doesn't seem too far-fetched to say it does work on a quantum level. If it worked on a chemical level I think we'd be closer to figuring out how the brain works completely by now.
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In a disastrous attempt to be funny and clever, Suddar wrote:
I disagree that we lack free will. We do have limited control over what our body does, and if certain chemical reactions or electrical impulses are causing things we don't like, we can set other reactions into motion that can counteract them.Unless you have some explanation for that, too.
The fact that you could only ever have reached that particular decision to do whatever you decide to at that specific instance. 
No matter what you decide, even if it's to change something, you can predetermine it with enough information, thus making free will impossible. Your entire argument is moot because it harmonizes perfectly with what I said.
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This one time, at Suddar camp:
I disagree that we lack free will. We do have limited control over what our body does, and if certain chemical reactions or electrical impulses are causing things we don't like, we can set other reactions into motion that can counteract them.Unless you have some explanation for that, too.
If the brain were just a state machine, you'd have no control over that. You'd only have an illusion of control. With enough inputs known ahead of time, you would know precisely how the brain would respond. The issue is that anything in reality must face an unending number of variables. All of our current math/science works best with a small number of variables. Even 20 variables begins to get incredibly hairy. That's part of why it's hard to fathom that everything is an input to the brain as a state machine.
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While possessed by the spirit of Somthor, Snugglits wrote:
It doesn't seem too far-fetched to say it does work on a quantum level. If it worked on a chemical level I think we'd be closer to figuring out how the brain works completely by now.
There's no evidence that the brain works on quantum level that I know of. I regard it as a somewhat plausible theory and little more.
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Snugglits has a secret obsession with Richard Simmons, as evidenced by...
If the brain were just a state machine, you'd have no control over that. You'd only have an illusion of control. With enough inputs known ahead of time, you would know precisely how the brain would respond. The issue is that anything in reality must face an unending number of variables. All of our current math/science works best with a small number of variables. Even 20 variables begins to get incredibly hairy. That's part of why it's hard to fathom that everything is an input to the brain as a state machine.
I don't know, I don't think it's hard at all. I can easily envision the brain as a giant, highly advanced computer-like entity.
Maybe it'd be so impossible to calculate that it would SEEM random, but wether it can be detected or not is actually irrelevant. Regardless of detection, it still makes free will impossible.
There are too many variables to reproduce the exact same reaction every time. While I agree that it's probably possible, actually succeeding is another matter entirely.Even if free will is an illusion, it may as well exist because there are so many possibilities and so many differences between people. But eh. Suddar fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 08:13 PM.
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Suddar has a secret obsession with Richard Simmons, as evidenced by...
I probably shouldn't have posted what I did, because I see what Jens is saying and I don't really disagree with it. I guess I was just looking for a way to agree with Waisz without actually saying the same thing he is.There are too many variables to reproduce the exact same reaction every time. While I agree that it's probably possible, actually succeeding is another matter entirely.
Even if free will is an illusion, it may as well exist because there are so many possibilities and so many differences between people. But eh.
I don't disagree, but I'd be inclined to say that's the reason the idea of free will appeared in the first place. 
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Jensus had this to say about Captain Planet:
Which effectively makes the idea of free will silly. Free will is, in fact, entirely mystical and has a place only in SCIENCE or religion. Without some kind of divine randomizer or 'immortal soul' or other crap like that, it cannot exist because with enough information, you can precalculate any action.
Are you sure of that?
It is part of mankind's nature to keep looking for explanations behind things. When we find them, we then look for the explanations behind that. The human mind does not accept possibility of there being no more to learn. We keep at it 'till we find more things to explore and learn. We keep breaking things down into smaller and smaller reasons.
Do you really think that someday we as a race will say "We understand the brain now"? Or will we forever be at the stage of "We're getting close to understanding the brain now"? I'm pretty sure it's the second one.
And until we can claim total understanding of the brain and how it works, there will allways be that unknown factor that we, for lack of a better term, will call "Free Will". Palador ChibiDragon fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 08:17 PM.
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Manticore was listening to Cher while typing:
so, why was this a flame?
So he could tell the religious nuts who are trying to avoid the argument by using religious explanations to fuck off?
Disclaimer: I'm just kidding, I love all living things.
The fastest draw in the Crest.
"The Internet is MY critical thinking course." -Maradon
"Gambling for the husband, an abortion for the wife and fireworks for the kids they chose to keep? Fuck you, Disneyland. The Pine Ridge Indian Reservation is the happiest place on Earth." -JooJooFlop
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A sleep deprived Palador ChibiDragon stammered:
Are you sure of that?It is part of mankind's nature to keep looking for explinations behind things. When we find them, we then look for the explinations behind that. The human mind does not accept possibility of there being no more to learn. We keep at it 'till we find more things to explore and learn. We keep breaking things down into smaller and smaller reasons.
Do you really think that someday we as a race will say "We understand the brain now"? Or will we forever be at the stage of "We're getting close to understanding the brain now"? I'm pretty sure it's the second one.
And until we can claim total understanding of the brain and how it works, there will allways be that unknown factor that we, for lack of a better term, will call "Free Will".
Jens is speaking on a conceptual level, not an applicable level. You can reason things without knowing how the brain actually works. This is pretty much what abstraction is.
In a similar way you could take an average woman who for no reason becomes interested in her car. She decides to take the engine apart to see how it works, but because she lacks any mechanical knowledge or a penis she will never figure it out without outside help. It will probably remain a mystery to her for the rest of her life. However, this in no way makes it a mysterious object, it just makes it too complicated for her to figure out in her lifetime. Snugglits fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 08:21 PM.
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Kegwen stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
So he could tell the religious nuts who are trying to avoid the argument by using religious explanations to fuck off?
You give Jens too much credit; he's not that smart.
It was a flame so he could start a fight by attacking religious people without provocation.
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Noxhil2 got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Determinism is nice but really there's no way to prove it. It's not really a theory, because it cannot be debunked. So I'm guessing you want a thread where you say "you were meant to do that11!11!!" for a few pages?
you're just angry because the "voices" told you to say that.
Even some of the 'religious nuts' think we don't have free will, because 'God knows what you're going to do already'. Take that as you will.
Edit: Anyway, we all know Existentialism is the only way to go Noxhil2 fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 08:24 PM.
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Nobody really understood why Noxhil2 wrote:
Determinism is nice but really there's no way to prove it. It's not really a theory, because it cannot be debunked. So I'm guessing you want a thread where you say "you were meant to do that11!11!!" for a few pages?
This is a typical fallacy. You might as well have said "You can't prove there's no God so He must exist." Evolution cannot be debunked!!111
Look! I'm Jens!
Look! I'm Yuri!
It is I, Waisztarroz!
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Mr. Parcelan Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Look at me! I hope that math will someday cure my white man's afro and bad skin!It is I, Waisztarroz!
I had my hair cut.
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Snugglits painfully thought these words up:
I had my hair cut.
PRAISE JESUS MATH!
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Palador ChibiDragon, what the hell are you doin' out here? You oughta be in bed.
Do you really think that someday we as a race will say "We understand the brain now"? Or will we forever be at the stage of "We're getting close to understanding the brain now"? I'm pretty sure it's the second one.
I think we'll eventually realize that with every breakthrough we make on understanding the human brain, the next generation of humans' brains are just all the more complex.
You may know X, but the variable in question is X+1 by the time you reach your conclusion.
It's not something people hear about.
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How.... Sean.... uughhhhhh:
I think we'll eventually realize that with every breakthrough we make on understanding the human brain, the next generation of humans' brains are just all the more complex.You may know X, but the variable in question is X+1 by the time you reach your conclusion.
But, genetically, Homo Sapiens sapiens is still the same as it was upon first arriving. Or that's what I was taught...
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And now, we sprinkle Jensus liberally with Old Spice!
Now if we define X as the current state of the brain, where the mind is based off, and we define Y as the current input being received and processed on some level, then we will always reach action Z. Never action B or action N, we will always reach action Z assuming X and Y and any other relevant factors are the same.Which effectively makes the idea of free will silly. Free will is, in fact, entirely mystical and has a place only in SCIENCE or religion. Without some kind of divine randomizer or 'immortal soul' or other crap like that, it cannot exist because with enough information, you can precalculate any action.
The randomizer exists. The requisite information is masked by the Uncertainty Principle, so, while you can probably predict certain, limited responses with decent accuracy, you'll never, ever have enough information to make the kind of predictions you're talking about.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Jensusing:
Your argument is based on bullshit as opposed to reason and I don't want you in the thread.Anything can be explained by science if you know all the factors, and if you believe otherwise, you damn well better explain why that is.
People who disagree with Jens are all stupid.
Have you noticed that you bring a zeal to anti-religion that's almost...religious? Maradon! fucked around with this message on 04-10-2005 at 09:14 PM.
