I've been relatively silent on this issue until now, I've seen a lot of misinformation fly around here but I've hesitated to correct anyone. Now, since the partisan heat is largely out of the way, comes the important part of the case: the criminal investigation of Michael Schiavo.
Of all the cases I've seen fly through the political spotlight, the Schiavo case has been the most rife with sensationalism, ignorance and misinformation that I've ever seen. Now, I'm hardly a right-to-lifer. This is all coming from a guy that supports the abortion or euthanization of debilitatingly retarded children, and frankly I think Terri Schiavo should have been killed by lethal injection years ago, but there's a ton of stuff about this case that just doesn't sit right with me.
Let's start from the very beginning.
Roughly fifteen years ago Terri Schiavo was disabled during a heart attack due to blood loss to the brain. Michael Schiavo, loving hubby that he is, files a malpractice suit for an enormous amount of money that he claimed, under oath, was nesscessary because Terri was going to live a long and fruitful life despite her disability. The suit was over the hospital failing to diagnose Terri with the bulimia that, Michael claimed, caused a potassium deficiency which caused her heart attack. Michael was awarded a personal amount and a trust fund was created for the money intended for Terri's care. The justice presiding over this case? The very same Judge Grier that would preside over this more recent custody case.
A little over three months later, Michael Schiavo began spending money out of that trust fund to finance the legal process of finding a way to kill Terri Schiavo, however it would be almost ten years until Michael would tell Judge Grier during the custody case that he "remembered" Terri saying at a party when she was 20 years old that she wouldn't want to live in a vegetative condition. Despite a lack of witnessess to corroborate this statement, Judge Grier used this claim as the basis of his ruling.
Now, I'm sure you're thinking "Well, he was just fighting to see that his vegetable of a wife died peacefully instead of being artificially maintained by life support." After all, that's precisely the idea that Michael Schiavo's lawyer built his entire case on. However, this idea is flawed on several levels.
For starters, Terri Schiavo was never on life support, and at the time she wasn't even on a feeding tube. In fact, nurses have testified that she was ambulatory and even able to communicably speak during this time.
Second, Michael Schiavo has forbidden the administration of any kind of therapy. He had her moved to a terminal care hospice - a place where his lawyer George Felos was on the board of directors. A terminal care hospice is essentially a filing cabinet for the terminally ill (which Terri was not) where only comfort measures are provided. While here, he gave the staff orders not to resuscitate her if she showed signs of recovery, he forbade nurses to clean her teeth, removed family pictures, ordered her drapes shut at all times, refused to allow her to listen to music through headphones, and forbade certain visitors for months at a time, including her own parents. He also requested and recieved court permission to cremate Terri's body immediatly after her death, with no autopsy.
Is this the behavior of a grieving husband who just wants to allow his wife to die in dignity?
Moving on, you're probably wondering where congress fits into all this.
I'm pretty sure that everybody knows that the Schindler family sued for custody of Terri to prevent Michael Schiavo from pulling the feeding tube. Just so this is extra clear, they intended to take custody of Terri, pay all her medical bills, and leave Michael Schiavo with all the money he got from his malpractice ruling. The judge ruled against them, and they appealed the case.
Quick lesson on the judicial system - when someone appeals their case, the court of appeals does not re-do the trial, the only thing the appeals court does is determine whether or not the trial was conducted properly.
When the Schindlers appealed their case, congress stepped in and ruled that the court of appeals must review the case "de nuovo", that they review the case as if it were for the first time, as any lower court would.
Now, I've seen people trying to claim that this act violates the checks and balances of government. Anyone who actually believes that is a complete idiot, the lower courts (that is to say every court except SCOTUS) exist at the whim of congress, they're created and dissolved by congress. Ruling that a court review a case de nuovo is not at all outside the power of congress.
But it's a moot point, since the appellate court illegally ignored congress's order. The only reason they have not been dissolved and held in contempt of congress is because congress has no balls at all.
The Schindlers appeal still has not been ruled on. The appellate court refused to allow the feeding tube to be re-inserted while the appeal was in process, despite the obvious fact that, without water and nourishment, Terri would die during the appeal. Essentially, they ruled without ruling.
Not much left to talk about now. Fast forward a few weeks;
Reverand Jessie Jackson (who is not a reverand or clergyman of any kind) speaks out in favor of reinserting the feeding tube, finally putting to rest the myth that the whole thing was a construction of right-to-lifer conservatives.
Michael Schiavo tells Larry King that starving to death is a "euphoria"
David Gibbs, the schindler's lawyer, says Terri is bleeding from the mouth and eyes after twelve days with no food or water. George Felos (scientologist, member of the Hemlock Society, and Schiavo's lawyer) says this makes her beautiful.
And lastly but not leastly Terri dies.
Luckily, there's going to be an autopsy despite the court ruling that there not be one. Knowing all this, can anybody really oppose a full out criminal investigation? Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 09:54 PM.
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From the book of JooJooFlop, chapter 3, verse 16:
Wow, that's an awful lot of bullshit. It'll take me a while to sort through it.
It's nice that you wear your bias on your sleeve and don't try to pretend that your claims of bullshit have any basis at all.
Small note, anyway. Back later with better arguments.
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Leopold's fortune cookie read:
It's going to take me a little while to gather some sources, but FYI, the nurse who testified that Terri was ambulatory also reported to police that Michael attempted to give her insulin injections (which spawned an investigation, which found nothing); she was fired from the hospital the next day.Small note, anyway. Back later with better arguments.
Yeah, that was a part of the audio clip I linked, but I didn't mention it because the whole "michael tried to assassinate terri with insulin" thing is not really proveable at this point. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 10:06 PM.
You can't communicate if your cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid.
Terri's husband offered to donate the rest of the settlement to charity if the Schindlers would allow the feeding tube removed. They didn't.
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We were all impressed when Mightion Defensor wrote:
You can't communicate if your cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid.
It was not determined that her cerebral cortex had been replaced by spinal fluid until long after she was transferred to the terminal care hospice - long after her interaction with the above mentioned nurse.
Terri's condition took a permenant dive when she was transferred into that hospice.
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Terri's husband offered to donate the rest of the settlement to charity if the Schindlers would allow the feeding tube removed. They didn't.
Michael Schiavo also turned down offers from third parties for millions of dollars if he allowed the feeding tube to stay. He was willing to sacrifice huge sums of money JUST to see Terri die, all hinging on the totally uncorroborated claim that she told him she would want to more than a decade ago.
That doesn't sound at all odd? Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 10:19 PM.
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Maradon! wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Michael Schiavo also turned down offers from third parties for millions of dollars if he allowed the feeding tube to stay. He was willing to sacrifice huge sums of money JUST to see Terri die, all hinging on the totally uncorroborated claim that she told him she would want to more than a decade ago.That doesn't sound at all odd?
It demonstrates that his wife's wishes were worth much more to him than money.
What do you suppose his motive is? Obviously not money if he's turning it down.
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Pvednes had this to say about Cuba:
It demonstrates that his wife's wishes were worth much more to him than money.
That's idiotic. Did you miss the part about how poorly he treated Terri through the entire process? That is not the behavior of a concerned husband.
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Suddar enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
What do you suppose his motive is? Obviously not money if he's turning it down.
Michael Schiavo has a history of abuse and of being a control nut and previous girlfriends have testified so. The Schindlers have testified that Terri expressed a desire for divorce. Hypothesis: Michael beats the shit out of her and tries to kill her, but fails. While she was in hospital care, 17 healed fractures, some of them compound, were found in Terri's body. Michael's need to eliminate any chance of her recovering and testifying against him would easily surpass any possible monitary gain.
There's no proof of this now, but I'd say it certainly warrants a criminal investigation. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 10:29 PM.
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It has been ordained by Primus, that there will be a Chosen One who will use the Matrix to "light our darkest hour." That darkest hour may come sooner if Maradon! keeps posting things like this:
Michael Schiavo also turned down offers from third parties for millions of dollars if he allowed the feeding tube to stay. He was willing to sacrifice huge sums of money JUST to see Terri die, all hinging on the totally uncorroborated claim that she told him she would want to more than a decade ago.That doesn't sound at all odd?
Did it not ever occur to you that he could have loved her and was doing his best to fulfill her wishes, and that possibly the thought of taking money to relinquish his guardianship was abhorrent to him? I think it's more odd that those things didn't occur to you. Not everybody on the planet tries to turn their personal tragedies into money.
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Mightion Defensor impressed everyone with:
Did it not ever occur to you that he could have loved her and was doing his best to fulfill her wishes, and that possibly the thought of taking money to relinquish his guardianship was abhorrent to him? I think it's more odd that those things didn't occur to you. Not everybody on the planet tries to turn their personal tragedies into money.
See above. That is not the behavior of a loving husband.
I'm not suggesting that his behavior alone warrants a conviction, but combined with the other evidence there NEEDS to be a criminal investigation. If he's just a loving husband whose grief drove him to boarderline abuse, then he has nothing to be afraid of.
Incidentally, we also have no proof that those were her wishes at all. Forgot that bit. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 10:40 PM.
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Hypothesis: Michael beats the shit out of her and tries to kill her, but fails. While she was in hospital care, 17 healed fractures, some of them compound, were found in Terri's body. Michael's need to eliminate any chance of her recovering and testifying against him would easily surpass any possible monitary gain.There's no proof of this now, but I'd say it certainly warrants a criminal investigation.
A hypothesis isn't the same thing as probable cause... as for the second part:
She was BRAIN DEAD. She wasn't going to recover and testify. Of all the links I've followed lately, you're the first (I've come across) that even suggested such a thing.
Oh, and this from CNN:
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Two hours after her death, Schiavo's body was taken by a white van escorted by police motorcycles to the Pinellas-Pasco County Medical Examiner's office in Largo for an autopsy.The autopsy report about the cause of death may not be available for several weeks.
Schiavo's husband requested the autopsy so the extent of her brain damage could be made public.
Guilty men don't let people perform autopsies on their victims if they can possible help it, and as legal guardian, he most likely could have stopped it.
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Michael Schiavo has a history of abuse and of being a control nut and previous girlfriends have testified so. The Schindlers have testified that Terri expressed a desire for divorce. Michael beats the shit out of her and tries to kill her, but fails. While she was in hospital care, 17 healed fractures, some of them compound, were found in Terri's body. Michael's need to eliminate any chance of her recovering and testifying against him would easily surpass any possible monitary gain.
Horseshit. Here is the police report from the night of Terri's collapse; note no sign of physical trauma. Here is the discharge report from Humana hospital, corroborating this.
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For starters, Terri Schiavo was never on life support, and at the time she wasn't even on a feeding tube. In fact, nurses have testified that she was ambulatory and even able to communicably speak during this time.
We've already pointed out that your nurse was full of it. But, just for fun: here's the nurse's signed affadavit. Note that neither nurse nor notary certified it as a legal oath. This is a link to the CT scan of Terri's brain from 1997. Feel free to compare it to a normal one. Feel free to look into the testimony about her EEG being flat, while you're at it.
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A terminal care hospice is essentially a filing cabinet for the terminally ill (which Terri was not)
except that she couldn't survive by her own means
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forbade certain visitors for months at a time, including her own parents
possibly because they violated a judge's order to cease taking photographic and video footage of Terri, which they then doctored down into a shorter videotape
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He also requested and recieved court permission to cremate Terri's body immediatly after her death, with no autopsy.
Except that even FOXNews has since updated this statement with the fact that Michael is now requesting that an autopsy be done to prove the extent of the damage to her brain.
The "Michael didn't do enough" lynchpin is crazy. Your own source notes that Michael sought training as a nurse, personally supervised her care, took her to California to have a thalamic implant placed in her brain as an attempt at rehabilitation (which cost in the neighborhood of $750,000), etc. Feel free to look into the testimonies describing Michael as "a hospital administrator's worst nightmare" in terms of the trouble he gave the nurses in terms of taking care of his wife; feel free also to note that in fourteen years of hospitalization under his advisement, she never received a bedsore.
More?
If anything, the most relevant actions are the ones at the start of the hospital treatment. Everything that has happened within the past year could have been done for a number of reasons.
-Tok
I certainly wouldn't want to look down from heaven and see my soulless body being kept "alive" for 15 years. I agree that she died when her brain did, back in 1990.
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Maradon!'s fortune cookie read:
Of all the cases I've seen fly through the political spotlight, the Schiavo case has been the most rife with sensationalism, ignorance and misinformation that I've ever seen.
After reading this write-up, did anyone else find this statement to be pure comedy gold?
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A sleep deprived Mightion Defensor stammered:
Guilty men don't let people perform autopsies on their victims if they can possible help it, and as legal guardian, he most likely could have stopped it.
That quote is from AFTER it was found that there HAD to be an autopsy. It's real easy to act forthright if you've been forced to do so.
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Horseshit. Here is the police report from the night of Terri's collapse; note no sign of physical trauma. Here is the discharge report from Humana hospital, corroborating this.
The fractures were HEALED and only indicate signs of past abuse. There are a myriad of ways to induce a heart attack, even via a potassium deficiency.
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We've already pointed out that your nurse was full of it. But, just for fun: here's the nurse's signed affadavit. Note that neither nurse nor notary certified it as a legal oath. This is a link to the CT scan of Terri's brain from 1997. Feel free to compare it to a normal one. Feel free to look into the testimony about her EEG being flat, while you're at it.
I already linked the signed affidavit, so it looks like we have conflicting information on both counts. It'd be nice if we could discern truth, as in some kinda investigation.
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possibly because they violated a judge's order to cease taking photographic and video footage of Terri, which they then doctored down into a shorter videotape
They probably violated a judge's order to cease taking video footage because Michael violated a judge's order to release medical records and findings. Also, the dates don't mesh.
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Except that even FOXNews has since updated this statement with the fact that Michael is now requesting that an autopsy be done to prove the extent of the damage to her brain.
He requested one AFTER it was found that one was legally required. Pretty slick, eh?
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The "Michael didn't do enough" lynchpin is crazy. Your own source notes that Michael sought training as a nurse, personally supervised her care, took her to California to have a thalamic implant placed in her brain as an attempt at rehabilitation (which cost in the neighborhood of $750,000), etc.
First off, I never made that claim.
Second, all those things were done during or immediatly after the initial malpractice trial, and long before Terri was transferred into the terminal care hospice. He HAD to make it seem like he was making an effort to rehabilitate her in order to keep the trust fund.
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How.... Toktuk.... uughhhhhh:
You and your apparent hero Tom DeLay have fun "prosecuting" Michael Schiavo. Guess we'll how far you get, but my money says you won't be able to overturn the rulings of over 40 different judges.-Tok
Not sure what you're talking about, since there's never been a criminal investigation of Michael Schiavo in relation to this event.
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Mightion Defensor stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
Is it my imagination, or is nothing allowed to happen in this country without people requiring someone be nailed to the wall for it?
If he's just a loving husband, why would an investigation "nail him to the wall"?
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Snugglits's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Many of his actions do seems suspicious. On the other hand, nothing anyone would have done of late would have brought Schiavo back to being a normal person again. At this point, it's possible that Michael's guilt (assuming hypothesis that he did do something to her) made him decide to do the "best" thing and get Terri out of her unchangeable vegitative state. He probably also wanted to get it done with.If anything, the most relevant actions are the ones at the start of the hospital treatment. Everything that has happened within the past year could have been done for a number of reasons.
I don't think his actions are even known at this point so I wont even speculate. I would want all avenues of treatment to be attempted and then if no improvement was observed then please just let go. I feel that if he had wanted her dead he could have had this fight fourteen years ago... and if he really didn't care about her then why not just walk away after the malpractice suit and let her parents take over?
Then what, specifically, are you arguing? Sum it up, I seem to be missing something.
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Maradon! got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
If he's just a loving husband, why would an investigation "nail him to the wall"?
Especially not when you've done such a wonderful job of it yourself with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. 
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Leopold had this to say about Robocop:
So you never made the claim that Michael did not provide care enough for Terri?Then what, specifically, are you arguing? Sum it up, I seem to be missing something.
I never made the claim that Michael did not provide ANY care for Terri, ever. I only made the claim that he quickly turned to obstructing care.
I'm arguing that there should be a criminal investigation of Michael Schiavo because his actions and history more than constitute probable cause.
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Nobody really understood why Mooj wrote:
Especially not when you've done such a wonderful job of it yourself with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
Way to illustrate that you didn't actually read anything I said.
You'd make a great anchorman on FOX News, but a prosecutor you are not.
With that said, I'll leave this debate be, because there's no factual basis whatsoever to argue the point of what Michael Schiavo might have done back when no one was looking at him, which means there's no factual basis to argue against it. Which means there is no argument, only wild speculation and hearsay.
I think I've held a pretty good track record of staying out of character attacks in my time at EC, but...jesus christ, man.
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Mooj had this to say about Knight Rider:
Having read everything you wrote, my statement stands.
Your statement doesn't even make sense. Try forming an actual argument instead of just spouting off party line bullshit and trying to pidgeon hole me.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Leopold was all like:
With that said, I'll leave this debate be, because there's no factual basis whatsoever to argue the point of what Michael Schiavo might have done back when no one was looking at him
Except for the small fact that people actually were looking at him and are willing to testify and such as that.
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This one time, at Leopold camp:
I think I've held a pretty good track record of staying out of character attacks in my time at EC, but...jesus christ, man.
Shucks it must be infuriating to know that someone disagrees with you. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 11:08 PM.
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And the Replyobots combined to form Maradon!, who roared:
I'm arguing that there should be a criminal investigation of Michael Schiavo because his actions and history more than constitute probable cause.
Because otherwise, heaven forfend, all the parties involved would otherwise be able to go on with their lives, and the news might turn to something else.
Can't have that!
/sarcasmoff
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Maradon! attempted to be funny by writing:
Your statement doesn't even make sense. Try forming an actual argument instead of just spouting off party line bullshit and trying to pidgeon hole me.
Pigeon.
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Mightion Defensor had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Because otherwise, heaven forfend, all the parties involved would otherwise be able to go on with their lives, and the news might turn to something else.Can't have that!
/sarcasmoff
The persuit of justice is so fucking irritating. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 11:09 PM.
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This one time, at Maradon! camp:
Your statement doesn't even make sense. Try forming an actual argument instead of just spouting off party line bullshit and trying to pidgeon hole me.
Your entire arguement is completely lost in the cloud of your bias. Whatever point you were trying to make is utterly ineffectual, and I can only laugh at how absolutely sure you are of facts that you know absolutely nothing about. My own thoughts on this will remain my own, I'm only laughing my ass off at what an idiot you look like.
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Nobody really understood why Maradon! wrote:
The persuit of justice is so fucking irritating.
Pursuit.
I don't really hate you.
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Everyone wondered WTF when Mooj wrote:
Your entire arguement is completely lost in the cloud of your bias.
Uh, how so?
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Whatever point you were trying to make is utterly ineffectual, and I can only laugh at how absolutely sure you are of facts that you know absolutely nothing about. My own thoughts on this will remain my own, I'm only laughing my ass off at what an idiot you look like.
Translation: "I don't know enough to argue with you but you must be wrong because you're a republican so I'll just insult you."
Of all the cases I've seen fly through the political spotlight, the Schiavo case has been the most rife with sensationalism, ignorance and misinformation that I've ever seen. Now, I'm hardly a right-to-lifer. This is all coming from a guy that supports the abortion or euthanization of debilitatingly retarded children, and frankly I think Terri Schiavo should have been killed by lethal injection years ago, but there's a ton of stuff about this case that just doesn't sit right with me.
Let's start from the very beginning.
Roughly fifteen years ago Terri Schiavo was disabled during a heart attack due to blood loss to the brain. Michael Schiavo, loving hubby that he is, files a malpractice suit for an enormous amount of money that he claimed, under oath, was nesscessary because Terri was going to live a long and fruitful life despite her disability. The suit was over the hospital failing to diagnose Terri with the bulimia that, Michael claimed, caused a potassium deficiency which caused her heart attack. Michael was awarded a personal amount and a trust fund was created for the money intended for Terri's care. The justice presiding over this case? The very same Judge Grier that would preside over this more recent custody case.
A little over three months later, Michael Schiavo began spending money out of that trust fund to finance the legal process of finding a way to kill Terri Schiavo, however it would be almost ten years until Michael would tell Judge Grier during the custody case that he "remembered" Terri saying at a party when she was 20 years old that she wouldn't want to live in a vegetative condition. Despite a lack of witnessess to corroborate this statement, Judge Grier used this claim as the basis of his ruling.
Now, I'm sure you're thinking "Well, he was just fighting to see that his vegetable of a wife died peacefully instead of being artificially maintained by life support." After all, that's precisely the idea that Michael Schiavo's lawyer built his entire case on. However, this idea is flawed on several levels.
For starters, Terri Schiavo was never on life support, and at the time she wasn't even on a feeding tube. In fact, nurses have testified that she was ambulatory and even able to communicably speak during this time.
Second, Michael Schiavo has forbidden the administration of any kind of therapy. He had her moved to a terminal care hospice - a place where his lawyer George Felos was on the board of directors. A terminal care hospice is essentially a filing cabinet for the terminally ill (which Terri was not) where only comfort measures are provided. While here, he gave the staff orders not to resuscitate her if she showed signs of recovery, he forbade nurses to clean her teeth, removed family pictures, ordered her drapes shut at all times, refused to allow her to listen to music through headphones, and forbade certain visitors for months at a time, including her own parents. He also requested and recieved court permission to cremate Terri's body immediatly after her death, with no autopsy.
Is this the behavior of a grieving husband who just wants to allow his wife to die in dignity?
Moving on, you're probably wondering where congress fits into all this.
I'm pretty sure that everybody knows that the Schindler family sued for custody of Terri to prevent Michael Schiavo from pulling the feeding tube. Just so this is extra clear, they intended to take custody of Terri, pay all her medical bills, and leave Michael Schiavo with all the money he got from his malpractice ruling. The judge ruled against them, and they appealed the case.
Quick lesson on the judicial system - when someone appeals their case, the court of appeals does not re-do the trial, the only thing the appeals court does is determine whether or not the trial was conducted properly.
When the Schindlers appealed their case, congress stepped in and ruled that the court of appeals must review the case "de nuovo", that they review the case as if it were for the first time, as any lower court would.
Now, I've seen people trying to claim that this act violates the checks and balances of government. Anyone who actually believes that is a complete idiot, the lower courts (that is to say every court except SCOTUS) exist at the whim of congress, they're created and dissolved by congress. Ruling that a court review a case de nuovo is not at all outside the power of congress.
But it's a moot point, since the appellate court illegally ignored congress's order. The only reason they have not been dissolved and held in contempt of congress is because congress has no balls at all.
The Schindlers appeal still has not been ruled on. The appellate court refused to allow the feeding tube to be re-inserted while the appeal was in process, despite the obvious fact that, without water and nourishment, Terri would die during the appeal. Essentially, they ruled without ruling.
Not much left to talk about now. Fast forward a few weeks;
Reverand Jessie Jackson (who is not a reverand or clergyman of any kind) speaks out in favor of reinserting the feeding tube, finally putting to rest the myth that the whole thing was a construction of right-to-lifer conservatives. (Mooj's note, what the hell does this have to do with anything? Jessie Jackson knows dick about this)
Michael Schiavo tells Larry King that starving to death is a "euphoria"
David Gibbs, the schindler's lawyer, says Terri is bleeding from the mouth and eyes after twelve days with no food or water. George Felos (scientologist, member of the Hemlock Society, and Schiavo's lawyer) says this makes her beautiful.
And lastly but not leastly Terri dies.
Luckily, there's going to be an autopsy despite the court ruling that there not be one. Knowing all this, can anybody really oppose a full out criminal investigation?
All the bold points are points that were completely unneccessary and biased. I could also draw a response to your massive lack of infomation listed in this, but frankly I don't give a damn.
You don't need to be a republican to be an idiot. As a matter of fact, I don't see anything wrong with republicans. You need to stop waving a republican banner on these crusades, because you make all republicans look stupid.
Blindy. fucked around with this message on 03-31-2005 at 11:42 PM.
