Pvednes fucked around with this message on 12-07-2004 at 07:30 AM.
But as I clicked Reply, they all suddenly became immensely less funny.
Commonly, unions are nothing more than self-serving marxist liberal special interest groups.
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Maradon! had this to say about pies:
No, and I do not approve of them.Commonly, unions are nothing more than self-serving marxist liberal special interest groups.
Oh crap. You got him started, Pved. Flee. Flee now.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
What maradon pointed out is that many times, they go overboard and put their noses where they arent necessarily needed or wanted. In this, they can act like extremist groups.
I think the concept behind a union is good. However, in the execution, many times it only creates more contention.
That was a bad situation. The fact is that the industry on the whole is in bad shape and it needs pilots to succeed, but that doesn't mean pilots can lead the industry around by the nose with unreasonable demands.
Likewise, there are some fairly ludicrous rules for things like the teamsters. Know why Sony's never doing the EQ Fan Faire in Chicago again? Because they were hassled constantly about setting up. You need a ten dollar power bar to plug stuff into? You're not ALLOWED to just go buy one and plug it in. You have to get a teamster, who gets paid union rates to totter over with a power bar and plug it in for you. Real brain surgery.
On the OTHER hand, the unions DO protect members from all sorts of stuff. There was a plant in North Carolina not long before I moved that was under investigation because the Union members there claimed that safety standards were bad. In that case it was a matter of too little, too late (the plant blew; shook my windows like three miles away), but without a Union to provide a unified front, it would fall to solitary whistleblowers to do that sort of thing, which means it wouldn't get done in many cases. And when it comes time for large groups of people to negotiate for pay increases, etc, a union helps negotiate the point. Yes the unions start by asking for a lot. They want as much as they can get. So does the company administration. They both want; it's just a matter of getting what they each want the most.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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Lashanna had this to say about Tron:
That's really uh... strong, Maradon. You think they have zero purpose? There's all sorts of safety regulations and legislation that has been pushed through that would have been ignored if not for labor unions...
They may have once had a purpose when industry was new and federal safety regulation hadn't been developed yet, but nowadays they aren't simple worker coalitions anymore, they've developed into their own entities and have their own political agendas. Their interests are no longer the best interests of the worker and are more frequently intensely anti-capitolist than anything else.
They're expensive, there's no need, and all they really wind up doing is advancing their own radical political agenda using your membership money.
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Check out the big brain on Maradon!!
They may have once had a purpose when industry was new and federal safety regulation hadn't been developed yet, but nowadays they aren't simple worker coalitions anymore, they've developed into their own entities and have their own political agendas. Their interests are no longer the best interests of the worker and are more frequently intensely anti-capitolist than anything else.They're expensive, there's no need, and all they really wind up doing is advancing their own radical political agenda using your membership money.
Government regulators rely on unions and advocacy groups to give them a heads up about a lot of things. America is a very BIG place, from an industrial perspective, with lots of places to hide misbehavior.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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Karnaj had this to say about dark elf butts:
Eh, I look at them as a means for the common worker to screw over his employer just as much as the employer looks for means to screw over the common worker. That way, everyone's miserable, and the system stays in balance. After all, capitalism is a pretty crappy moral system, and, simply put, people are under no obligation to do the nice thing or the right thing. At least this way workers have a recourse when their employers inevitably fuck with them. Sure, it ain't perfect, and is sometimes downright bad, but such things are acceptable.
Pretty much, Unions keep things in balance. A good example would be the UAW (United Auto Workers). If GM/Ford/Chrysler had their way, workers would be paid the wages they pay people down in Mexico. But the Union steps in and looks out for workers rights somewhat, as well as keeps management spinning it's wheels so much that anything negative is usually very slow to develop, if at all.
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Reynar had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Pretty much, Unions keep things in balance. A good example would be the UAW (United Auto Workers). If GM/Ford/Chrysler had their way, workers would be paid the wages they pay people down in Mexico. But the Union steps in and looks out for workers rights somewhat, as well as keeps management spinning it's wheels so much that anything negative is usually very slow to develop, if at all.
This is a common misconception.
First off, the UAW has nothing to do with the wages workers are paid. If automakers wanted to pay the same salaries that mexicans made, they would (and do) hire mexicans, and there's nothing the UAW could do about it. When they pay higher salaries, they do so voluntarily. Higher salaries are an investment, they yield more skilled labor and a higher quality end product. Even on the assembly line you can see returns on a higher salary.
When the UAW demands higher salaries, the company has no choice but to compensate by either cutting quality or cutting jobs. Union demanded across-the-boards raises help nobody.
The proper application of a worker union is as a temporary, unfinanced entity gathered to solve a specific problem, then disbanded after that problem is fixed. Permenent union entities almost invariably develop into a severe detrement to industry and worker alike. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 12-07-2004 at 11:07 AM.
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Check out the big brain on Maradon!!
This is a common misconception.First off, the UAW has nothing to do with the wages workers are paid.
Wrong, the UAW negotiates salaries everytime the contract is up. Along with benefits, time off, holidays off, etc. I worked for the UAW local 652 in Lansing for over 3 years, wages were always on the top of everyones list of importance, second only to medical benefits.
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If automakers wanted to pay the same salaries that mexicans made, they would (and do) hire mexicans, and there's nothing the UAW could do about it.
They would strike, and cause the automakers a whole heep of trouble and legal action would ensue. Moreover, they have to go setup the plants down in Mexico and whatnot, which have proven time and again to produce lower quality cars, which is why they don't build all of their plants down there, as it doesn't save them money in the end.
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When they pay higher salaries, they do so voluntarily. Higher salaries are an investment, they yield more skilled labor and a higher quality end product. Even on the assembly line you can see returns on a higher salary.
All assembly line workers are paid the exact same wage.
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When the UAW demands higher salaries, the company has no choice but to compensate by either cutting quality or cutting jobs. Union demanded across-the-boards raises help nobody.
I agree with you.
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The proper application of a worker union is as a temporary, unfinanced entity gathered to solve a specific problem, then disbanded after that problem is fixed. Permenent union entities almost invariably develop into a severe detrement to industry and worker alike.
I sorta agree. Unions serve a good purpose, but like all things they get corrupt and abused overtime. So the overall message is lost.
Alaan fucked around with this message on 12-07-2004 at 12:06 PM.
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How.... Maradon!.... uughhhhhh:
They may have once had a purpose when industry was new and federal safety regulation hadn't been developed yet, but nowadays they aren't simple worker coalitions anymore, they've developed into their own entities and have their own political agendas. Their interests are no longer the best interests of the worker and are more frequently intensely anti-capitolist than anything else.They're expensive, there's no need, and all they really wind up doing is advancing their own radical political agenda using your membership money.
So you're arguing that federal regulations are a good thing by removing the need for freemarket supporting entities such as unions?
quote:Either that or he thinks we'd be better off earning the same wage as they pay plant workers in Mexico.
When they turned on the Infinite Improbability Drive, Blindy. stammered,
So you're arguing that federal regulations are a good thing by removing the need for freemarket supporting entities such as unions?
Dues are extremely high, workers get no real benefits and they tend to get screwed harder by the union that the company could ever do. In addition they have been known to check voter records and harass any employee who voted in a Republican Primary. Unions should not be a political organization but they are.
Mexican auto industry wages and benefits average $4.00/ hour, vs. $30/ hour in the U.S. Would you take that job for $4 or would you go elsewhere? The value of labor differs from country to country because our economies differ. Companies want the best labor they can get for their dollar, so they compete with each other over the laborers.
Personally, I think unions have outgrown most of their usefulness in their current manifestation. The days of life-threatening work conditions and sweat-shops have past (At least in regards to American industry within U.S. borders. Outside our borders, all bets are off.) For the most part, save a few rare cases of intentional negligence, these industries have radically reformed since industrial revolution. Most companies are too afraid of being sued to take chances, so they overprotect themselves. This has hurt some businesses that are genuinely trying to cooperate with workers, since some unions take advantage of them.
While I think it's important for there to be negotiation, open communication between both the employers and the employed, and investigation of worker treatment, some unions are just legal mafia.
Just my opinion.
Everything ever taught to you by Jim Bob of Billy Bob's Black Belt Emporium is a lie. Now, tie your obi UNDER the hakama and try again.
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Pvednes had this to say about Punky Brewster:
How powerful are trade-industrial unions in your country? Are you a member of a union, and do you approve of them? In which case why, or why not?
... I read the title as Onions. And then 'How powerful are trade-industrial onions in your country? Are you a member of a onion...' and then I caught on.
Having car companies go to mexico, or whatever, is good for the world. Specialization lets whatever interaction become more beneficial for most, at the expense of a few, who, should, be assisted with part of the surplus gained from specialiazation. Trade increases the standard of living for the whole world, it starts to average it. One reason americans shouldnt like the trade bit. Too many are just, DAERK ER DARB, and little else.
Labor unions are bad, might be needed again soon, if the badshit goes any farther.
quote:So are you a member of an onion?
See, your nem-x means your hair. So technically it's true.
... I read the title as Onions. And then 'How powerful are trade-industrial onions in your country? Are you a member of a onion...' and then I caught on.
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Blindy. got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
So you're arguing that federal regulations are a good thing by removing the need for freemarket supporting entities such as unions?
Unions are in no way a "freemarket supporting entity," unions are a leech on the back of the free market.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Blindy. had this to say about Robocop:
So you're arguing that federal regulations are a good thing by removing the need for freemarket supporting entities such as unions?
Even if one doesn't back Maradon's radical views, that's a nonsensical statement. Unions exist primarily to hamper the free market process to the benefit of workers.
Reasonable people can disagree whether their influence is still necessary to keep the bourgeoisie from screwing the proletariat, but it's simply not possible to argue that unions enhance the free market process, since they came into being specifically to put the brakes on rampant free market capitalism.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Wrong, the UAW negotiates salaries everytime the contract is up. Along with benefits, time off, holidays off, etc. I worked for the UAW local 652 in Lansing for over 3 years, wages were always on the top of everyones list of importance, second only to medical benefits.
I understand that. What I meant by this was that a union can negotiate salaries all they like, but salaries will still be determined by the needs of the business. No cashier's union is going to get the lady at the register in wal-mart a $12.50/hr salary.
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They would strike
The business would close, liquidate it's assets, and use them to build a facility twice as big in Mexico. Yes, they'll be making a lower quality product, but doing so can frequently be more profitible than doing business under a union.
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All assembly line workers are paid the exact same wage.
Don't know why you chose to mention this. My point was only that if your assembly line positions are higher paying, they will attract more dedicated and skilled workers.
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Bloodsage was naked while typing this:
Even if one doesn't back Maradon's radical views, that's a nonsensical statement. Unions exist primarily to hamper the free market process to the benefit of workers.Reasonable people can disagree whether their influence is still necessary to keep the bourgeoisie from screwing the proletariat, but it's simply not possible to argue that unions enhance the free market process, since they came into being specifically to put the brakes on rampant free market capitalism.
STOP USING BIG WORDS! THEY MAKE BRAIN HURT!
Heh.
I remember one King of the Hill where they hired a drug addict at strickland propane. And because they now had "15 or more employees" they had to comply with the americans with disabilities act.. which meant turning the lights down, having him come in late and drunk/high..
They all got so fed up with it that Mr. strickland fired hank (Because he couldn't do his job with the changes) and since they now had 14 employees, they didn't have to play nicenice with the fucking drug addict, fired him, and rehired hank.
It was a good episode, and proof that TV can teach you anything.
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Check out the big brain on Bloodsage!
I can't believe anyone's asserting that the quality of American cars is an argument for the existence of the UAW.
Am I missing something? When was that said?
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Reynar said this about your mom:
Am I missing something? When was that said?
You seemed to be implying that unions kept quality high.
So I scoffed.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Maradon! had this to say about Optimus Prime:
[qb]I understand that. What I meant by this was that a union can negotiate salaries all they like, but salaries will still be determined by the needs of the business. No cashier's union is going to get the lady at the register in wal-mart a $12.50/hr salary.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, of course a union could ask for $95/hr, and if the business profit doesn't warrant it, no way in hell are they gonna get it. So in the end, salaries are set by the company, and get tweaked slightly up or down depending on union contracts.
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The business would close, liquidate it's assets, and use them to build a facility twice as big in Mexico. Yes, they'll be making a lower quality product, but doing so can frequently be more profitible than doing business under a union.
Depending on the business, that can be more or less likely. You wont see a major company doing that unless demands made by the union are completely insane. Because the amount of money it would cost a large nationwide company to pack up and move offshore would far outweigh giving into union demands.
edit: damn ubb Reynar fucked around with this message on 12-07-2004 at 02:55 PM.
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There was much rejoicing when Bloodsage said this:
You seemed to be implying that unions kept quality high.So I scoffed.
I don't think I was implying that anywhere, if I was that wasn't my intention.
Unions have no bearing whatsoever on quality. I was saying that most companies have visible evidence that things like cars made in the US have a higher level of quality then a place like Mexico.
I dont get why unions arent gone yet, only something like 15-20% of workers belong to them anymore, and they are no where near as effective as during the start. Stats show em getting weaker since the 70s or so.
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ACES! Another post by Elvish Crack Piper:
I dont get why unions arent gone yet, only something like 15-20% of workers belong to them anymore, and they are no where near as effective as during the start. Stats show em getting weaker since the 70s or so.
Because in many cases, people have no choice as to whether or not they can join a union. If you get a job at GM/Ford/Chrysler working on the line, you become a member of the UAW and have to begin paying dues immediately.
If you refuse to join said union, you won't be keeping your job for very long.
So you get hirer wages so you can pay union dues, when you could just get lower wages and no dues, and get more total?
WTFY.
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Elvish Crack Piper probably says this to all the girls:
Thats...So you get hirer wages so you can pay union dues, when you could just get lower wages and no dues, and get more total?
WTFY.
Pretty much, the average line worker at GM pays about $50 a month out of their check to Union Dues last I knew.
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael spewed forth this undeniable truth:
9/11 was the first plate falling. A number of major airlines had to file for bankruptcy protection and get governmental aid to stay in business while they restructured. Unfortunately the pilots weren't willing to accept a lower pay rate and fewer benefits, and the union was holding out.That was a bad situation. The fact is that the industry on the whole is in bad shape and it needs pilots to succeed, but that doesn't mean pilots can lead the industry around by the nose with unreasonable demands.
oh yes, unreasonable demands like retirement.
The complaint wasn't that pilots, mechanics, and FA's alike would have to take a few cuts... Some of the cuts were on the order of a 50% pay cut and ZERO retirement. In the meantime management was giving themselves multi-million dollar bonuses for "cutting costs"
Tell me, would you accept a 50% cut in pay and lose your retirement while the management give themselves million dollar pats on the back?
Unions in the airline industry are more vital now than ever because management is using the fact that they mismanaged an airline into the ground as an excuse to throw out labor contracts and mistreat workers. Consider the effect on pilots, mechanics and flight attendants next time you get on an airplane.
The glorified life of a pilot is someone who makes $200,000 a year and has half the month off. The reality is that it takes 10 years of poverty wages, 15 years of hard work, and being in the right place at the right time to get there, and you're forced to retire at 60. I have a friend who just got a first officer job at Skywest... she makes less than I do pimping videos. That'll be me someday... every one of us do it because we'd rather fly than be rich... most of us will never ever make it to that $200k a year captain's seat... some of us will be lucky to make $70k as a regional captain, every last one of us will put around 50,000$ of our own money into getting that first 21k a year regional airline job, and that's just for flight training. I have $25,000 in college loans too. Kermitov fucked around with this message on 12-07-2004 at 03:38 PM.
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Alaan impressed everyone with:
I'm in a union(Foodworkers local 75 or somesuch) but I really don't want to be. I work at Jewel for a bit under $7/hour starting pay. If I had been lucky enough to snag a job at Wal-Mart(haet u automated phone application) I would be making more than that at the start, doing essentially the same job. Right now the only thing the Union has to offer me is a chunk out of my paycheck into their pocket. I see no benefit to it since Wal-Mart hass nearly identical insurance, profit sharing, and has an even better employee discount(10% on everything compared to Jewel's 5%).
...You DO realize that no union can force you to be a member, right?
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Densetsu spewed forth this undeniable truth:
...You DO realize that no union can force you to be a member, right?
That's not entirely true. Some places (the federal and many state governments being some of them) require you to pay union dues whether or not you become a "member."
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
