How do they construct Katana's that are shipped to a 'Generic Asian Trendy Mall Store' differently from regular ones. This may sound like a dumb question, but, specifically.
Do they just stamp on the tempering lines? Does the Tang not go all the way through the hilt? Is the metal used differently?
Also, in dealing with those, is it possible to sharpen them to be able to cut, at all? Or are they STRICTLY for show?
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OtakuPenguin was naked while typing this:
Or are they STRICTLY for show?
Yes
I *think* swordsonline.com uses lasers to make their swords. They have a full tang 440C katana for about 200 bucks, and a reverse blade, same config, for 190.
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Kael thought about the meaning of life:
Depends on the price range of the blade. If it's cheap, the blade is gonna fall out of the hilt when you unsheath it.I *think* swordsonline.com uses lasers to make their swords. They have a full tang 440C katana for about 200 bucks, and a reverse blade, same config, for 190.
The difference is swordsonline.com seem to deal in REAL swords (albeit blunted)..
..whereas the ones OP refers to are those crappy katana/wakizashi pairs on a flimsy wooden frame you see in malls all over the place.. ie. lengths of low carbon steel shaped and polished to look like swords (but about as genuine as Paris Hilton's IQ test scores...) Abbikat fucked around with this message on 06-15-2004 at 12:18 AM.
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ACES! Another post by OtakuPenguin:
I dunno if anyone has any knowledge in this area, but I'm curious.How do they construct Katana's that are shipped to a 'Generic Asian Trendy Mall Store' differently from regular ones. This may sound like a dumb question, but, specifically.
Do they just stamp on the tempering lines? Does the Tang not go all the way through the hilt? Is the metal used differently?
Also, in dealing with those, is it possible to sharpen them to be able to cut, at all? Or are they STRICTLY for show?
Ok, lemme lay it out for you.
1. Hamon is stamped on (they don't have the actual temper line, just the hamon).
2. The nakago (tang) does go all the way through the handle but doesn't always have mekugi (pegs) going through it; often it has a think called a rat tail which essentially a little hook on the end and it's glued in place.
3. They're made of 440 stainless steel which shatters on impact with anything and generally sucks (too brittle for swords).
4. Sharpening them to cut is a bad idea because of fact three. They are indeed just for show.
You can find some cutting blades here Bugei but they're expensive as hell. If you want a functional blade that you can learn techniques with but can't cut with, look at Tozando. There you can find iaito which are berylium zinc blades that have no edge. They are made solely for practices iaijutsu techniques and bend easily so they won't break.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
And no, you cannot afford one. A proper Katana is made the old way. And, in fact, you can have one made, by the 24th generationd escendant of Masamune himself.. for a price.
but good luck getting it past Japanese and American customs.
But as you have no reason in your life to have a proper Katana, just go to the mall, and buy the prettiest toy you can find.
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Tal NSFW!! had this to say about Optimus Prime:
But as you have no reason in your life to have a proper Katana, just go to the mall, and buy the prettiest toy you can find.
..but... but... the vampyres...
...
oh wait... That was zeke...
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Tal NSFW!! had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
If you want a proper weapon, you do not buy them from a store, you have them made.And no, you cannot afford one. A proper Katana is made the old way. And, in fact, you can have one made, by the 24th generationd escendant of Masamune himself.. for a price.
but good luck getting it past Japanese and American customs.
But as you have no reason in your life to have a proper Katana, just go to the mall, and buy the prettiest toy you can find.
Yeesh, ok.
I just wanted to know out of curiousity. No, I'm never going to fight someone with it. No, I won't use it for class, my Bokken is for that. No, I'll never need to cut something.
So, yes, I will, "Buy the prettiest toy I can find"
Also, what's Iaijitsu? Isn't that the art of the draw or hip movements or something of the like? I'm currently studying a Bujinkan sword style, but still researching swordplay in general.
Also, anyone have any info about different styles ala Rurouni Kenshin? Do people still teach things akin to Kamiya Kasshin or Hiten Mitsurugi? The only info I can find online about Japanese sword styles is Kendo.
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Tal NSFW!! got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
but good luck getting it past Japanese and American customs.
Just say you're going to use it to take out some vermin and they'll let you have it in the seat next to you, no questions asked!
To practice Iaido with a false blade, would be like masturbating to the sears catalog. Sure, the pictures are just as glossy as Penthouse, buts its still FUCKIN WRONG.
And FYI.. Beryllium is toxic to TOUCH. I'd prefer the papercuts, to my skin turning green and rotting off.
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OtakuPenguin got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Yeesh, ok.I just wanted to know out of curiousity. No, I'm never going to fight someone with it. No, I won't use it for class, my Bokken is for that. No, I'll never need to cut something.
So, yes, I will, "Buy the prettiest toy I can find"
Also, what's Iaijitsu? Isn't that the art of the draw or hip movements or something of the like? I'm currently studying a Bujinkan sword style, but still researching swordplay in general.
Also, anyone have any info about different styles ala Rurouni Kenshin? Do people still teach things akin to Kamiya Kasshin or Hiten Mitsurugi? The only info I can find online about Japanese sword styles is Kendo.
Hiten Mitsurugi is battoujutsu which is the same as iaijutsu (focused on the drawing and resheathing of the blade vs. parrying and the like which is kenjutsu). The style you're studying is a ninjustsu/ninpo style. So far as I know, kamiya kasshin doesn't exist. What you want to look for is kenjutsu (which is what kamiya kasshin is) and iaijutsu (which is what hiten mitsurug is). Koryu.com lists a number of traditional japanese martial arts (sword and otherwise).
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Tal NSFW!!'s account was hax0red to write:
And maho..To practice Iaido with a false blade, would be like masturbating to the sears catalog. Sure, the pictures are just as glossy as Penthouse, buts its still FUCKIN WRONG.
And FYI.. Beryllium is toxic to TOUCH. I'd prefer the papercuts, to my skin turning green and rotting off.
Dude, a beryllium zinc blade (there's aluminum in em two if I remember correctly) is a practice blade. It's for learning how to draw and resheathe. It's not for cutting. You would never use a shinken (live blade) to practice kata; you'd wear out your saya (sheathe) way too quickly that way. Even iaito wear out the saya quickly, and they don't have an edge.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
The uh...like, specialized styles, ever play Way Of the Samurai for the PS2? A bunch of different swords had different stances and styles. What happaned to all of those different styles? Am I just not looking hard enough?
Edit: In case you're wondering why I'm so interested, I find swordplay and swordsmanship fascinating to the nth degree. Just to imagine being so trained, so disciplined as to wield a weapon with that kind of precision.
If I had the money and a place to do it, I would join an Iaito school in a heartbeat. It's that precision and discipline that I want in swordsmanship. I'm getting a lot of it from the Bujinkan style I'm studying now (my school is announcing a new name, much like Bruce Lee did with Jeet Kun Do, very shortly, we're all excited), and I've found that once you have a basic understanding of Swordsmanship, it's easy to take off and experiment.
And, silly as this may sound, with my studies into Zen Buddhism, Bushido and the Samurai way of life, I'm pulled deeper in. I can meditate longer and with more fruition, I'm more calm, clear headed and patient. I want to take the extra step, I suppose.
Samurai's believed their sword was their sould. So, if you really want to know, I wanted to know about swords because I want my own, I want to take the next step in my studies, to have my own sword. And I figure, in this day and age, I won't be using it to kill anyone, or to cut, so why can it not still be symbolic of a "soul", even if it is from 'Asia Mart 2k' or whatever. As long as it means something to it's owner, right? OtakuPenguin fucked around with this message on 06-15-2004 at 12:50 AM.
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OtakuPenguin had this to say about pies:
Right, Right, I was just throwing out names from Kenshin to try and get my question across.The uh...like, specialized styles, ever play Way Of the Samurai for the PS2? A bunch of different swords had different stances and styles. What happaned to all of those different styles? Am I just not looking hard enough?
A lot of game and anime styles don't exist in real life. They could also be chinese or korean. I'm inclined to think a japanese game would only include japanese styles so they're probably not real. The ones on koryu have established histories so you can be sure those are real. I myself am trying to get into Eishen Ryu iaijutsu.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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OtakuPenguin wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I just checked out that website, very cool and interesting stuff. Maybe in a couple years when I move to a bigger city I may be able to find and try to join a more obscure martial art such as Iaido.
Something else I might add. Iaido is almost pure philosophy; some iaido schools even think it's blasphemous to cut anything with the blade (at least, that's what a friend of mine who has studied iaijutsu for some years told me). Iaijutsu is similarly philosophical but also adds kata and often tameshigiri (practice cutting on soaked, rolled tatami) into the regimen. Kendo has become primarily a sport like fencing and will actually build some very bad habits technique wise (but it sure is fun). Kenjutsu is the actual fighting technique, there are many different schools of it around.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Verily, Maho doth proclaim:
Dude, a beryllium zinc blade (there's aluminum in em two if I remember correctly) is a practice blade. It's for learning how to draw and resheathe. It's not for cutting. You would never use a shinken (live blade) to practice kata; you'd wear out your saya (sheathe) way too quickly that way. Even iaito wear out the saya quickly, and they don't have an edge.
You sir, are wrong. Beryllium, even in a mild alloy is still toxic. And your spouting of shit about wearing things out, and never using a live blade, is mindless drivel. You're speaking from an american sport martial arts point of view, rather than a realistic point of view.
AND you dont even seem to grasp what Iaido is for. A false blade represents a lack of trust and faith in ones self, and forgiving ones self for fucking up. NEITHER of these is allowable. Now why don't you go watch "The Last Samurai" and beat off again, See if you learn any more.
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Tal NSFW!! had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
You sir, are wrong. Beryllium, even in a mild alloy is still toxic. And your spouting of shit about wearing things out, and never using a live blade, is mindless drivel. You're speaking from an american sport martial arts point of view, rather than a realistic point of view.AND you dont even seem to grasp what Iaido is for. A false blade represents a lack of trust and faith in ones self, and forgiving ones self for fucking up. NEITHER of these is allowable. Now why don't you go watch "The Last Samurai" and beat off again, See if you learn any more.
Ouch. =\
One can adapt their beliefs from a whole slew of different sources. Of COURSE no one is going to follow the traditional, actual, word for word code of Bushido, of course not. Then you would commit seppukku if someone cut you off at an intersection.
Everything is open to interpretation, for looking at it as you see fit. Bushido is a good set of principles when dealing with Self Control, Discipline and Respect towards others among other things. So why not take it as that? OtakuPenguin fucked around with this message on 06-15-2004 at 01:05 AM.
I have no parents; I make the Heavens and the Earth my parents.
I have no home; I make the Tan T'ien my home.
I have no divine power; I make honesty my Divine Power.
I have no means; I make Docility my means.
I have no magic power; I make personality my Magic Power.
I have neither life nor death; I make A Um my Life and Death.
I have no body; I make Stoicism my Body.
I have no eyes; I make The Flash of Lightning my eyes.
I have no ears; I make Sensibility my Ears.
I have no limbs; I make Promptitude my Limbs.
I have no laws; I make Self-Protection my Laws.
I have no strategy; I make the Right to Kill and the Right to Restore Life my Strategy.
I have no designs; I make Seizing the Opportunity by the Forelock my Designs.
I have no miracles; I make Righteous Laws my Miracle.
I have no principles; I make Adaptability to all circumstances my Principle.
I have no tactics; I make Emptiness and Fullness my Tactics.
I have no talent; I make Ready Wit my Talent.
I have no friends; I make my Mind my Friend.
I have no enemy; I make Incautiousness my Enemy.
I have no armour; I make Benevolence my Armour.
I have no castle; I make Immovable Mind my Castle.
I have no sword; I make No Mind my Sword.
Uuumm.. sumimasen..
How exactly does someone cutting you off at an intersection stain your personal honor to such a degree (given the above creed of Bushido), that ritual suicide is the only way to atone before your ancestors???
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OtakuPenguin obviously shouldn't have said:
Then you would commit seppukku if someone cut you off at an intersection.
That made me snicker. Hordes of people along the shoulder of the roadways offing themselves!
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Check out the big brain on Abbikat!
How exactly does someone cutting you off at an intersection stain your personal honor to such a degree (given the above creed of Bushido), that ritual suicide is the only way to atone before your ancestors???
It was merely an extreme example.
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There was much rejoicing when Tal NSFW!! said this:
You sir, are wrong. Beryllium, even in a mild alloy is still toxic. And your spouting of shit about wearing things out, and never using a live blade, is mindless drivel. You're speaking from an american sport martial arts point of view, rather than a realistic point of view.AND you dont even seem to grasp what Iaido is for. A false blade represents a lack of trust and faith in ones self, and forgiving ones self for fucking up. NEITHER of these is allowable. Now why don't you go watch "The Last Samurai" and beat off again, See if you learn any more.
I don't think Tozando would still be selling them if they were that toxic. Nor would a japanese sword company keeping iaito if it's sacriligious to use them for practice. Shinken are used in the higher dan levels (dan is what we westerners would call a black belt). Sometimes, students in the higher kyu (student) levels will use them for tameshigiri but not often. If you used a shinken from the beginning, you'd lose your fingers the first time you did nukitsuke or notou. If you want to debate this, IM me via AIM and I'll introduce you to a friend of mine who knows this stuff far better than I do.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Maho had this to say about Pirotess:
I don't think Tozando would still be selling them if they were that toxic. Nor would a japanese sword company keeping iaito if it's sacriligious to use them for practice. Shinken are used in the higher dan levels (dan is what we westerners would call a black belt). Sometimes, students in the higher kyu (student) levels will use them for tameshigiri but not often. If you used a shinken from the beginning, you'd lose your fingers the first time you did nukitsuke or notou. If you want to debate this, IM me via AIM and I'll introduce you to a friend of mine who knows this stuff far better than I do.
Hi. I'm Tal, and I know this stuff better than you do. I would go into detail, and provide links, and shit... But, well, I am fairly certain that my study of weapons, metallurgy, chemistry, killing, death, combat, and discipline, through most of the major cultures, and nations on this planet...
Well, I figure it kinda outweighs your arguement of "My friend will back me up"
God, you're turning into Somthor without the Fark Links...
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Tal NSFW!! said:
Hi. I'm Tal, and I know this stuff better than you do. I would go into detail, and provide links, and shit... But, well, I am fairly certain that my study of weapons, metallurgy, chemistry, killing, death, combat, and discipline, through most of the major cultures, and nations on this planet...Well, I figure it kinda outweighs your arguement of "My friend will back me up"
God, you're turning into Somthor without the Fark Links...
Well, given that you've provided no basis for your arguement other than "Tal says so", I can't give you credibility at all. I've provided references and reasoning for my arguement and I can't see where you can dispute that without some sort of proof.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Maho wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Well, given that you've provided no basis for your arguement other than "Tal says so", I can't give you credibility at all. I've provided references and reasoning for my arguement and I can't see where you can dispute that without some sort of proof.
But if I linked random shit I googled, it would make my arguement credible?
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Tal NSFW!! obviously shouldn't have said:
But if I linked random shit I googled, it would make my arguement credible?
I didn't link random shit I googled. Those are sources for equipment that were suggested to me by students of the style I'm attempting to get in to. You have to show me (and everyone else here) any reason why your arguements are credible. I see no reason to believe you, especially given that I've actually bothered to start learning about this particular japanese sword style. You can choose to believe me or not, you're wrong either way.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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This insanity brought to you by Tal NSFW!!:
But if I linked random shit I googled, it would make my arguement credible?
At least then you've got something to cite.
You tend to come into threads like this a lot and say "You're wrong... not going to go into why, but you're wrong." While that may be the case, if you're going to come into a thread and toot your own horn, give a little citation, explanation, or something.
My name is as stated, Ian Benjamin, because I don't like hiding behind the anonymity of a chat room. I train in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu under the Jikishin-Kai under Shimabukuro Shihan who is in charge of foreign affairs, while Miura Hanshi manages the Hombu dojo in Japan. If you'd like the phone numbers and addresses of these locations feel free to ask and I'll provide them, however I'm not sure Miura Hanshi speaks enough english to explain things at great length.
Anyway, you sound a lot like some of the misguided youths of some forums like www.swordforum.com or www.bugei.com They come and go. It's common practice to use an iaito (practice blade) and you respect it as if it were live. The benefit is that in small dojo where there is little room for movement or, god forbid, error, the iaito minimizes damage caused to oneself or others. As far as your understanding of what is acceptable metals for these iaito, I don't really understand your logic. I'd knicked myself before with iaito and I can assure you that I've suffered no such toxic misadventures. I don't understand why people think all Masamune are instantly cultural treasures, you can take them out of the country so long as they aren't. I saw one that was saiba (retempered and thus greatly devalued) on ebay being sold on the US market, it happens. Would have been a juyo quality blade otherwise, good stuff. If you want people to take you seriously Tal, then you need to start acting like a mature gentleman. Right now you are coming off arrogant, intended or not. I'm not so sure you want to learn, but this has been my attempt to move in a positive direction. Otherwise, this flaming will continue.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm "Maho"s Sempai. I was thinking about it, and on second thought, it may have been a saiba Muramasa and not a Masamune, but the point stands all the same. Great names don't always make great swords. Ian Benjamin fucked around with this message on 06-15-2004 at 02:12 AM.
Everything ever taught to you by Jim Bob of Billy Bob's Black Belt Emporium is a lie. Now, tie your obi UNDER the hakama and try again.
who are you?
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Check out the big brain on Ian Benjamin!
Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm "Maho"s Sempai. I was thinking about it, and on second thought, it may have been a saiba Muramasa and not a Masamune, but the point stands all the same. Great names don't always make great swords.
This is the aforementioned friend. For those who may not know, a sempai is someone senior to you. He's taught me most of what I know and directed me to websites and books that taught the rest of what I know. Also recommended a few dojos.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
I specialize in Nihonto History and Collecting. As well as training in Batto-do/Battoujutsu. I'm a recognized member of the Zen Nihon Toyama Iaido Renmei. I have had the chance to work with various styles ranging from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu to Mugai-ryu. I am a serious Budo practitioner who has a official background in Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo and Toyama Ryu Battoujutsu.
Tal,
Your understanding of Iaido is FAR from complete to say anything about the philosophy or understanding of Iaido. Because the term Iaido is really a category of lets say 500 or so existing styles in Japan. And No one in the world will ever have the time to even reach a level of competency in each and everyone of those styles to be able to make any sort of statement about how they train. Why they train. And what its all about. You say it is sacrilegious to use an Iaito in training. How is it so? When such companies like Meirin Sangyo, Tozando, and Nosyuiaido make and sell such products to the Japanese Sword Training community? If you believe you are truly right that it is WRONG to do so. I highly suggest you talking to people like, Miura Hideyuki Takefusa(Soke of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu Jikishin-kai), Sono Seigo(Soke of Edo Yagyu Shinkage Ryu heiho), Imai Masayuk(Headmaster of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu), and the various exponents of other styles who allow the use of Iaito in there dojo. There history and understanding will far exceed your own. Do they consider it sacriligous to use an Iaito? I know for a fact that they don't. Each and everyone one of those styles has there own philosophy in there training. On how to approach the sword to how it is used. Iaito are mere training tools to be used to help people learn.
Next you go on to tell Maho. That Maho does not understand what Iaido is for. The sad truth is in its originality as created back in 1590(using the starting point of MJER since Shigenobu is the father of Iai) has become obsolete. Even among us practitioners doing tameshigiri on tatami omote. We will never understand all there is to know about it. Iaido or any form of it be it Batto-do, Battoujutsu, or Iaijutsu at this point in time is nothing more then a Art to be preserved as a piece of history. With that said, I am reminded of a quote that Shiokawa-gosoke(15th Soke of Mugai-ryu) said to Niina-gosoke(16th Soke of Mugai-ryu). "In the 20 years I've been studying this style. I've only begun to understand half of it". Because none of us will grasp what it meant. We will never master or come close to it.
Tal, I highly suggest doing a bit more research into the styles and philosophies taught by various styles before making any kind of comment when refering to a Category of styles such as Iaido.
Maho,
First off. Tal is correct on the point of metal alloy. Iaitos are actually made of Aluminum/Zinc alloys not Berrylium. Your reference on use of Shinken or the Live blade is going to vary between different styles. I study Toyama Ryu. And after a certain point we only use Shinken. Except when doing Kumitachi. Iaito are usually used as a stepping stone before going onto Shinken. Iaitos can be a good thing especially when someone is new. You should be learning more about the sword before making such kind of statements when refering to swords. Although 440 Stainless Steel is a bad steel for swords. You fail to realize there is a 440M Stainless Steel. Which references that steel's ability to form a Martensite Edge. Which is really what a Hamon is. Anything you see on Iaitos and Cheap Sword Like Objects. Are not Hamon. Hamons are specifically the temperline caused by the formation of Martensite as the Blade's edge. Overall 440 Stainless is bad. But there is a form that can be used for blades. Just rarely ever used because of the price. Thats why most use Carbon steel of some kind be it 1084, 1095, 1050, or even 1070. The steel needs to react a certain way to make a Hamon.
Maho, I applaud you for having the willingness and dedication to take up Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. I will be honest. Its not a cheap hobby. But the rewards in doing it is great. You will slowly learn the history behind the art.
Final note to both of you and everyone. There is never enough time in any of our life times to learn all there is to know about the sword. Or to grasp the meaning of it as it was once used back in the Muromachi period and such. None of us will have the chance to test our skill. But we are given a great opportunity to preserve and become a part of its history.
Katsujinken
You guys got served. 
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
