Yes I know this could get ugly very fast. Please dont' attack each other in trying to make your point(s)
quote:
Whereas the argument over when life begins was a philosophical one 30 years ago, it now is a scientific one that says life begins at conception, McCorvey said
Wrong right there. First off the debate is not about weather 'life' exists at conception, but human life. Defining life is still a Philosophical question, and defning 'human' moreso. If two fused cells are human life, it would lead to the conclusion that a decapitated corpse whose organs are beeing kept in function by life-supporting machines would be as well, since he does in fact have human DNA. [ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Shazorx / Modrakien ]
[ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: D ]
I don't want babies raised by complete idiots who don't understand how to use a condom to be in our society. I can't say I care for these babies/children to be wasting lots of tax money for their care, either.
quote:
Someday, children will study Where's Waisz? in school:
I don't want babies raised by complete idiots who don't understand how to use a condom to be in our society. I can't say I care for these babies/children to be wasting lots of tax money for their care, either.
These people point to "Baby Moses" laws as an excuse to ban abortion, whereas I see them as a reason not to - I'd just as soon not toss my tax money into supporting the numerous offspring of the Village Bicycle just because condoms take away all the sensation.
quote:
x--OtakuPenguinO-('-'Q) :
Abortion is totally wrong in my eyes.
Nice of you to share, but it doesn't mean much unless you state reasoning. [ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Bill ]
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and OtakuPenguin was all like:
My reasoning is this: Why kill something?Adoption anyone?
Most children stay in government run adoption clinics for quite some time before they are adopted.
It just doesn't work.
quote:
x--OtakuPenguinO-('-'Q) :
It's still better than murder.
Not if it's only murder in your opinion
Adoptions very seldom successfully happen and many times children remain wards of the state until adulthood. [ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Bill ]
Personally I feel that people should take responsibility for thier actions. Abortion is avoiding that responsibility. We all make mistakes in life, and we have to learn to deal with them. I know a couple women who have had abortions. Years later they are still pretty torn up over it.
I feel that abortion is wrong and not due to religious reasons.
I value life, while I feel there are many things we can do to give up the right to live, being concieved is not one of them. Many people tout the rights of the mother as a reason for being Pro-Abortion. What about the rights of the child? What about the right of the child to be given a chance? Those rights are no less important than the mothers.
The right to have an abortion is no different from my right to shoot somone because I don't like them. Neither are really "rights" They are choices that should never be protected. THey are wrong.
Because
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.
MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.
PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!
NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.
EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
It's not really right to waste tax money where it could be better used because some believe that a fetus in the first trimester is a human. It is going to come down to opinion in that area. It's not something that is fact like "the sky is blue" or "the ocean contains water". What if I said I am some king from a distant planet who has been mistreated here, and now I deserve restitution? Would you think it was fair to waste tax dollars on something that I hold as belief?
Stopping clinic abortions isn't going to stop abortions, either. You'll still get things like the coat hanger or babies being left in dumpsters. These methods are much, much more painful for all involved. While I do believe in making laws to curb immorality, I think that some people are knowingly unfit to be parents, and if these people are going to get rid of the child, it would probably be best to not make the process so torturous.
quote:
Where's Waisz? wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I'm all for abortions.I don't want babies raised by complete idiots who don't understand how to use a condom to be in our society. I can't say I care for these babies/children to be wasting lots of tax money for their care, either.
Word.
quote:
There is no easy answer.
Both sides can argue until the end of time about it, and they probably will. But neither is completely right. Sometimes there just isn't an easy answer to these things. Black and white is not the way to look at the issue, the way many people do. There just isn't a solution to this problem that will satisfy everybody, especially if we look at it in terms of "wrong" or "right."
Ban abortions, but only for pro-lifers. It can be on your driver's liscense right next to "Organ Donor"
There! We've got it all sorted!
"i'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-life" Translation: "There should never be any abortions ever. Even if you were raped by your retarded, crackhead father and carrying the baby to term will kill you."
"Americans are distressed at the number of abortions performed every year." Translation: "Would this be a bad time to mention that we've also opposed research to the point that there've been no major advances in contraception for the last 30 years? Contraceptives that could, ya know, eliminate the need for a lot of these abortions we're so opposed to?"
"Life is sacred". Translation: "In the womb that is. Once you're out, you're on your own there, slick. You want money for child nutrition, daycare or medical care? Tough. You think the government's made out of money or something? And don't come whining to us. We're busy looking out for other unborn children."
"Killing is wrong." Translation: "If the victim is an unborn child. If you live in a country we don't like or if you're stupid enough to kill someone during a robbery, then your ass is grass and we're the lawn mower."
quote:
Callalron had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
While I don't doubt the sincerity of belief in the pro-life community, I have a big problem with their addiction to doubletalk and obfuscation."i'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-life" Translation: "There should never be any abortions ever. Even if you were raped by your retarded, crackhead father and carrying the baby to term will kill you."
"Americans are distressed at the number of abortions performed every year." Translation: "Would this be a bad time to mention that we've also opposed research to the point that there've been no major advances in contraception for the last 30 years? Contraceptives that could, ya know, eliminate the need for a lot of these abortions we're so opposed to?"
"Life is sacred". Translation: "In the womb that is. Once you're out, you're on your own there, slick. You want money for child nutrition, daycare or medical care? Tough. You think the government's made out of money or something? And don't come whining to us. We're busy looking out for other unborn children."
"Killing is wrong." Translation: "If the victim is an unborn child. If you live in a country we don't like or if you're stupid enough to kill someone during a robbery, then your ass is grass and we're the lawn mower."
You only look at one side of the arguments.
I am Anti Abortion. Although as with anything there are times when it is a must. Sometimes the mother must choose the baby or herself. This is a choice similar to taking someone off life support. And yes shit can happen to good people. But just because something can be done does not mean it should be done.
I do not oppose research into contraceptives. I encourage it in fact. The male pill, etc are all great things.
All life is sacred. So should we start making abortions a requirement for anyone who makes under a certain ammount per year. Or perhaps for those who have some sort of dissability? Sure lets just do that. Your problems are solved now.
And finally.
Killing innocents is wrong. That is a very fine line but a very important one. If I kill a drugged up punk who is trying to rob me then I am justified. If I unload on a couple of strangers who are just walking down the streed then I am not justified.
Cal you are trying to break it down into a black and white argument. Something that it is not. I expected better.
quote:
Ford Prefect spewed forth this undeniable truth:
If you blow up a hospital wing where doctors perform abortions, haven't you just performed several abortions?
Hmm As much as I hate Abortion I can never understnad the people who actually think this kind of action would be right. I feel that 99% of Abortions preformed today are immoral. And the people who perform them will have thier own little corner in hell. However it is not my right to take that persons life.
If these people really think that abortion is so terrible, then the best advice I can give them is to never get themselves in the position where they'd need to avail themselves of one. But they've got no business telling everyone else how to live their lives. If I wanted to follow their rules, I'd join their church. I didn't, so there you have it.
And it's not like the pro-choicers force anyone to do anything. I can't ever recall pregnant women being rounded up at gunpoint and forced to have abortions. Yet the pro-life crowd doesn't see anything wrong with shooting people, blowing up buildings and generally doing whatever is necessary to force others to do their bidding.
Before you talk about both sides of the argument, consider both sides of this:
Which group has been indicted under RICO statues?
Which group has had members on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List?
Which group has not only refused to disavow violence but actively and repeatedly used murder and arson to further it's cause?
However just to point something out. The attempt to indicted under Rico failed.
You say which groups and try to shove everyone who is on the same size ove the fence under that umbrella.
Which side kills millions every year? Which side throws the bodies of dead children in garbage bags?
It can be turned both ways Cal.
You favor contraception and are opposed to the bombings and murders. Great, you've staked yourself a position on the rational wing of the pro-life camp. But there are way, way more people who are willing to do all the things I've mentioned and more to impose their will on others.
Let me put it too you this way. How does some woman you don't know having an abortion affect your life? In what way is the existence of the pro-life crowd lessened by this woman exercising control over HER body? Does ice cream suddenly not taste as sweet? Is the sun not as bright? If the pro-lifers are so damn certain they're right, why not just go off and be right together and be all smug about it, knowing us heathen abortionists are going to wind up in hell?
quote:
OtakuPenguin spewed forth this undeniable truth:
My reasoning is this: Why kill something?Adoption anyone?
So, how many are you planning to adopt?
Better question, can anyone find for me some figures on just how many Pro-Lifers have adopted? Is it 100%? Is it 50%?
Adoption works only if enough people make it work.
An abortion does not destroy a life, it stops a life from coming into existance. I guess that's the crux of the disagreement.
^____________________________^
(yes, Nicole does not want to be Mommy)
Does that make me responsable for the potential murder of possibly dozens of kids? How many kids can a woman have before her body just gives out?
For fucks sake. It's the woman in question's decision. This makes me fucking sick.
quote:
She said the court case "brought the holocaust of abortion"
Nice attempt to try to tie-in the abortion debate with the fate of Jews in Nazi Germany... Scores 8 for effort, but only 1.5 for execution.. 
(pun not intended)
quote:
More technology exists now than it did 30 years ago, McCorvey told Fox News Tuesday, such as three-dimensional sonograms that can show women that the fetus growing inside of them is viable.
True. Then again consider... does a woman who falls pregnant after rape have the right to determine what happens to her own body? And how that woman might feel about being "forced" to give birth (and subsequently raise) a child that is a daily reminder of one of THE MOST traumatic experiences anyone could ever face??
The viability of a fetus, or its physical condition (ie: free of defomity, whether physical or mental), is not the only reason pregnancies get terminated.
For the girls, consider the rape situation. Would you give birth to child (even if you give it up for adoption) that is a reminder of the trauma you went through? (Remember, you get 40 weeks of carrying the child before it's born to relive the trauma too)
For the guys, consider (girls consider too, as another alternative): Your wife is pregnant, and the doctor tells you both "I'm sorry but if the child is born, the mother will die. We can abort the pregnancy now however, with no medical consequences, and you can try again for another child." Who has the right to life? Which is the better alternative, watching your wife die during/after birth, and raising the child alone? Or trying for another child, which may not cause the same complication, and allow you to have both wife AND child?
quote:
McCorvey's lawyer, Allan Parker, lead attorney for the Texas-based Justice Foundation, said recent changes in law make the court's decision no longer just. "Why do women have abortions? Because they don't think they can take care of the child," Parker told Fox News.
Perhaps in the absolute MINORITY of occasions... but to make such a broad generalised statement that all abortions are for this reason just shows how much of an idiot some people can be (And unfortunately, most of them become lawyers... No offence Gyd 
)
quote:
McCorvey and more than 1,000 other women who have had abortions are including statements in the petition to the court on how abortions have affected their lives.Among the effects, the women say they: became alcoholics; "hated life in general," were "unable to bond with anyone;" suffered from depression, various medical problems, years of mood swings and eating disorders, panic disorder and promiscuity, post-abortion syndrome; "felt empty inside;" "lack of ability to deal adequately with true love and sex in marriage;" went to therapy for anger and other symptoms; and "I'm always thinking about my unborn child."
And I'm sure I could find studies on more than 1000 women that didn't have an abortion that had these effects too... Post-natal depression anyone??
Also women who miscarry can have the same problems... I am aware of several women who miscarried at various stages of their pregnancies who all suffer from the various things listed above...
So abortions are hardly the only cause of such emotional/psychological effects... Banning them wont make the 'problems' go away...
Personally, I'm pro-choice. My body, my choice.
I don't tell smokers to quit, despite reams and reams of medical evidence showing the harmful effects. Their choice.
Ditto alcoholics.
Ditto illicit drug-users.
Ditto obese people who blame McDonalds/BurgerKing/et al for their weight problems.
If folks want to be able to tell others what they can and cannot do, picture the possible consequences.
Someone has alcohol completely banned because of incidents of drink-driving..
Someone else has smoking banned completely because they dont want to breathe in the smoke (and imagine then the repercussions for motor vehicles... the exhaust fumes from gasoline-powered vehicles is more harmful than even the carcinogens that are acknowledged to exist in cigarettes/cigars...)
And we've all seen and heard Pipper Gore and Hillary Clinton regarding "violent video games".... (Won't someone think of the children!!!)
Where does it all end?
Soccer mom to pwn??
[ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Abbikat ]
[Edit:] Editted out some typos...
quote:
Where's Waisz? painfully thought these words up:
That "chance" stuff doesn't hold up. First, it's not a human!. It's dependent on its mother, not functioning out on its own. Second, there's a chance the baby could grow up to be a terrorist or whatever, too.
That's what I say, Waisz.
Every governmental body, church, whatever in the world recognizes a person's life starting the second they were born.
Point me to a church where they have birthdays for people on their conception date.
If I was 15, I don't wanna celebrate my birthday on the day my parents fucked.
Eww.
quote:
Delphi Aegis stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
That's what I say, Waisz.Every governmental body, church, whatever in the world recognizes a person's life starting the second they were born.
Point me to a church where they have birthdays for people on their conception date.
If I was 15, I don't wanna celebrate my birthday on the day my parents fucked.
Eww.
It'd be roughly 24 to 36 hours after your parents fucked, actually.
When I say "functioning on its own", I mean capable of doing so. An 8-month-old fetus is very close to being capable of functioning on its own and using the logic/intelligence part of its brain.
A 3-month-old fetus is not. It is not a human!
quote:
Mog had this to say about Captain Planet:
Azziza, sayw hateveryouwa nt, but keep i mind, no matter waht happens, you will never get pregnant, you will never have a child inside you, wether or tno thats waht you want, dotn you think its ad descion that should be made by te poeple who need to deal with soemthign that weighs 8 pounds comeing out their relativlsamll openenings?
It's anyone's right to make the decision, really, because a child is a part of a society.
I'd place more bias on the female's right to decide on this case, but I wouldn't say the males have no say, either.
quote:
From the book of Mog, chapter 3, verse 16:
Azziza, sayw hateveryouwa nt, but keep i mind, no matter waht happens, you will never get pregnant, you will never have a child inside you, wether or tno thats waht you want, dotn you think its ad descion that should be made by te poeple who need to deal with soemthign that weighs 8 pounds comeing out their relativlsamll openenings?
Who cares, he's still free to debate the topic as long as he is informed. Emotionalizing this is not a good thing for the debate.
quote:
Mog stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Azziza, sayw hateveryouwa nt, but keep i mind, no matter waht happens, you will never get pregnant, you will never have a child inside you, wether or tno thats waht you want, dotn you think its ad descion that should be made by te poeple who need to deal with soemthign that weighs 8 pounds comeing out their relativlsamll openenings?
OUCH!!
(not just reading that hurt... but the sudden thought of 8 pound somethings coming out of relatively small openings did too...)
Attempted funnay break
