When it grows to the point where it could be kept alive outside the womb (in a hospital's ICU nursery, for example) with the reasonable expectation that it would mature and grow properly, then it deserves legal protection. [ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Drysart ]
quote:
A sleep deprived Drysart stammered:
As long as the fetus requires being attached to the mother for survival, then it should not be considered a seperate life with its own rights and privileges. Carrying a child, even in a normal pregnancy, carries risks to the wellbeing and life of the woman, and as such should not be forced on her because of anyone's "moral grounds".When it grows to the point where it can be kept alive outside the womb (in a hospital's ICU nursery, for example) with the reasonable expectation that it will mature and grow properly, then it deserves legal protection.
This I will agree upon wholeheartedly. 
quote:
Drysart got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
As long as the fetus requires being attached to the mother for survival, then it should not be considered a seperate life with its own rights and privileges. Carrying a child, even in a normal pregnancy, carries risks to the wellbeing and life of the woman, and as such should not be forced on her because of anyone's "moral grounds".When it grows to the point where it could be kept alive outside the womb (in a hospital's ICU nursery, for example) with the reasonable expectation that it would mature and grow properly, then it deserves legal protection.
This.. I agree with. 
quote:
Check out the big brain on Drysart!
As long as the fetus requires being attached to the mother for survival, then it should not be considered a seperate life with its own rights and privileges. Carrying a child, even in a normal pregnancy, carries risks to the wellbeing and life of the woman, and as such should not be forced on her because of anyone's "moral grounds".When it grows to the point where it could be kept alive outside the womb (in a hospital's ICU nursery, for example) with the reasonable expectation that it would mature and grow properly, then it deserves legal protection.
Said so much better, and so much nicer than I would have phrased it... 
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Drysart said:
As long as the fetus requires being attached to the mother for survival, then it should not be considered a seperate life with its own rights and privileges. Carrying a child, even in a normal pregnancy, carries risks to the wellbeing and life of the woman, and as such should not be forced on her because of anyone's "moral grounds".When it grows to the point where it could be kept alive outside the womb (in a hospital's ICU nursery, for example) with the reasonable expectation that it would mature and grow properly, then it deserves legal protection.
Agree.
In fact there is no doctor (at least no doctor over here) that will conduct an bortion once the fetus is into the third trimester simply for the fact that the baby (which it really is at this stage) has a very good chance of being able to survive in a humidicrib of a hospital ICU.
With that said: we are nowhere NEAR that now, and were we to simply say "alright, because someday we would've done it anyway, congratulations, the world now runs on an anarchistic system or lack thereof," the human race would crumble within days, descending into war, hatred and conflict, simply because we are not yet prepared to live in such a manner. Right now, government is an aid to us: it allows us to focus on life by working to aid the details we are not yet ready to; it temporarily solves the problem of dictating how people SHOULD interact with one another, for better or worse.
The theme rings true here as well. Someday, abortion will not exist, simply because there will be no need for it: people will understand each other, and care about each other enough to be responsible with their choices.
Right now--they aren't.
I do not like abortion. I do not like the idea of killing anything. When I wake up late, and must take a fast shower but find spiders in the bathtub, I do not wash them down the drain: I grab a cup, pick them up with it, and set them outside. I don't like drugs: I talk to my user friends about them, and try to get them to find something better to do with their time (not so much on account of the drugs themselves, as to the reasons they generally use them). I don't like alcohol: I turn it down when it is offered to me.
But had I the power to make all the world's killing, boozing and drugging disappear--I wouldn't. There's no growth to be had in simply having options removed: that's just the easiest way to deal with a problem. (see also: affirmative action.)
Someday I believe the world will not have, need or want abortion.
This is not that day.
Why not work towards it, rather than eliminating the possibility of the learning experience?
[ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Where's Waisz? ]
quote:
Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Leopold, the Voice of Reason who doth quote:
I strongly believe that the destiny of society is anarchy. Not in the "DEATH TO THE STATE" manner, but rather in that, at some glorious point in our future, we will have evolved and matured enough that we as a race will be able to live in peace with one another without the need for standardized rules and regulations; without treaties and denominations. We will simply "be," and that will be enough for us.
Naive much?
Perhaps if the race ever evolves (or de-evolves) to a state where it's lost free will.
quote:
Azizza's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
After making it legal to kill millions per year
That right there is what will make this topic high flammable, Az. You don't get to take a shot and then say "Now everyone behave!"
The fact is that a child in the first trimester isn't capable of surviving on it's own. You're eliminating the realized potential for life, not a life in and of itself. I think that adoption is a wonderful option (my mother is adopted) but the fact is that some people opt for abortion for all the right reasons, or in the very least for understandable reasons. Mankind does get to decide when certain things are meant or not meant to be.
I will agree that some people use abortion as a form of birth control, and those people are wrong. At the same time, they're no more wrong (and are easily argued to be much less bad) than jackass terrorist extremists (and they are terrorists; they act outside the law to inspire terror on those with legal but differing views on an issue) who bomb abortion clinics.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
That said, I am pro-choice. I had the chance to choose abortion, and I didn't. Now from that article, I should be all happy go lucky and thankful for my decision, but I'm not. I wish I had been hard-hearted enough to do it. Simon's a wonderful little boy, and I would think he was a darling...if he belonged to someone else.
I don't have the maternal gene. I don't have motherly feelings. I'm not ashamed to admit it. It's not something anyone has to be ashamed of. I resent my 4 year old greatly. I resent the problems he causes in my life. I get flack about him, from my mother, from his father over insurance, having to stay with a dead end job *because* he needed insurance. Even college. I was on my way to college when I was pregnant with him. He was the reason I couldn't go. He was the reason I moved up to Illinois to be with his dad, fell into financial trouble, and had to eventually declare bankruptcy, because I just couldn't manage to get out of that hole. Now I can't afford to go back to school yet, and the problems all stem with my 4 year old son.
So no, I'm not happy go lucky and thankful. I get depressed sometimes. I hate some things in my life. And they're not all his fault, but a large portion of them stem from the fact that I didn't have an abortion. It's not always a happy ending when you choose not to do it. [ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Lyinar Ka`Bael ]
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
As much as I consider you a friend, it's just WRONG to blame your entire lot in life on your son. And it greatly angers me to see that.
quote:
Azizza had this to say about Duck Tales:
Abortion is avoiding that responsibility.
Well it's not like the woman who gets the abortion is getting off scot-free. There's a whole plethora of complications that arise from abortion. Most of them are life-affecting.
Abortion can cause:
A) Pelvic inflammatory disease. It's common. STD's like gonorrhea and chlamydia can cause it. Even if she gets prompt treatment, she's got a really good chance of being rendered infertile. Some women experience chronic pain for the rest of their lives. But(!) if they're lucky, it's only every time they have sex.
B) incomplete removal of the products of conception... The placenta does not always seperate from the uterus during an abortion. Sometimes even a limb or the skull is left behind. Scraping the rest of the placenta off is something that can damage the uterus. But(!) if the material is left behind, symptoms include: high fever, cramping, heavy bleeding and infection. Advanced cases of infection mean a hysterectomy.
C) Uterine atony, which is when the uterine muscles don't contract to stop the bleeding that commonly results from an abortion, and if that isn't caught and fixed, can cause the blood to lose its clotting abilities (AKA: disseminated intravascular coagulation), which means: blood transfusions and a possible hystorectomy. May as well get a hysterectomy, she's ususually rendered infertile anyway.
There's also the possibility of puncturing the uterus/bowel/bladder, cervical damage (usually causes miscarriage or premature birth in future pregnancies, or even infertility altogether), scarring, embolisms (which can lead to lung damage and the occasional death... the blockages can also cause a stroke or heart attack), increased risk of breast cancer, and an increased risk of tubal pregnancies (where scar tissue keeps the fertilized egg from moving into the uterus to develop -- if the baby is not removed, the fallopian tube it's in ruptures, and the mother dies).
So, yeah, I'd say alot of women who get abortions don't realize the possible consequences of how badly it can fuck them up. They're avoiding responsibility for a child, yes, but at the same time they are taking on responsibility for alot of other fun possibilities. I think it's pretty safe to say that most women who don't want children now won't be getting children later, either.
And yes, I am pro-choice, to an extent at least. I don't agree with abortion after the third trimester. [ 06-17-2003: Message edited by: Veruca Salt ]
It is as simple as this.
1) You can't stop the populace from having premarital relations
2) You can't stop the populace from unwanted pregnancies as a result of point 1
3) There will be women who wish for this pregnancy to be terminated
These are not opinions, these are facts.
If you make it against the law, these women will put their own life and health at risk to end the pregnancy.
In short, if you are campaigning to illegalize abortion, you are forcing young women to put their life and health at risk.
There is a difference between being pro-life and anti-abortion. There is a difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion.
Being pro-abortion means you think itĀs a moral and normal act.
Being pro-choice means you think the woman should have the right to choose, although you might not necessarily agree with a choice to abort
Being pro-life means you support programs to help SOCIALLY end abortion. Note the distinction between socially and legally.
Being anti-abortion means, quite literally, you think it should be outlawed, and women should have to live with the consequences of their actions, even if it means the ruination of two or more lives.
Personally, I'm pro-choice, even though if I ever got a girl pregnant I would urge her to keep the child, even to let me raise it if she doesn't want it. I am, however, opposed to third trimester and all forms of partial birth abortions. I am opposed to abortions of convenience in Marriage. Like wise, I am opposed to prostitutes raising children for welfare. I am opposed to pregnancies of convenience to force a manĀs hand in marriage.
If you want to illegalize abortion, you must also illegalize all of these things.
If you canĀt do that, then you canĀt do that.
quote:
Sergeant Blindy got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
If you make it against the law, these women will put their own life and health at risk to end the pregnancy.
See above. Even legal abortion puts a woman's life and health at risk. Even at a clinic that knows what it's doing.
quote:
We all got dumber when Veruca Salt said:
See above. Even legal abortion puts a woman's life and health at risk. Even at a clinic that knows what it's doing.
legal abortion puts the womans life in a lot smaller amount of risk than illegal abortion.
If it was illegal to have cosmetic surgery, do you think it would be just as safe to get it? Do you think surgens would be just as careful and precice knowing that they could never be sued for their mistakes? Do you think it would still take place in a steril and controled hospital environment?
ok now imagine they are performing cosmetic surgery up your no-no. would you like to be able to sue them if they fuck up? I know I would. [ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Sergeant Blindy ]
I'm with Drysart on this...a woman should have the choice to abort her pregnancy if its a good reason, but third-trimester abortions, when a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb is a definite no-no.
Lyinar, although I hate to say this, is a good example of what might happen if abortions were made illegal. Although she chose it on her own, thus making it partially her fault, choosing to have her son did raise tons of problem for her. Now, say there was someone else in her stead that really did want to go through with an abortion, but was told she couldn't, then had her future ruined. And its not just women with this problem, the father most of the time ends up having to get a job to support his kid, sending child care money, his future is gone too.
I met a kid in high school who was one of the best and brightest of my class year, active in drama, spirit-raising activities, etc. But in AP Gov, he pointed out in a discussion on Roe v. Wade that he might've been an abortion case if not for his mother's personal decision to keep him. Had she wanted to, he might not have been there. But it furthered one point home for me. If a person wants to keep their child, even though its possible to abort it, that's great, but the opportunity should still be there. Its their choice to take it.
I stand with the "life begins at birth" crowd, because even up to the point of birth, there is no guarantee that the kid or the mother is going to live through it. Its a potential life, not a life in itself. Until it can survive on its own or aided, its like an unfinished car. Sure, its a car, but will it run? I see life beginning with the first breath, when the baby begins to interact with the world around it, forming sensations, emotions, experiences, memories. It can cry, laugh, think, feel, and interact with the world around it.
Pro-lifers have some good points, but they are seldom raised, instead they go for emotional/religious appeals, etc. Then, they go and attack the clinics, or just plain out harass the women trying to visit the clinic, making the experience traumatic if it wasn't already. In addition to not only making the abortions in process or about to happen unavoidable by default, they're eliminating adult lives that have been there for years, affecting many others. I find that indistinguishable from terrorism, for its slaying people based on their own belief, not law, or in defense of their own lives or their country. I've even helped formulate a proposal to a local police department to station a cop's rounds around a clinic to help prevent this.
To sum it all up: Women have the choice of what to do with their bodies with some influence from the father, but aborting a child capable of surviving on its own is wrong.
1. Don't eat. Guess what, that lettuce is/was alive. As are those bacteria in the cheeses.
2. Take immunosuppressive drugs. Guess what! Your OWN IMMUNE SYSTEM KILLS DYSFUNCTIONAL HUMAN CELLS ON A REGULAR BASIS! Not only that, *ANYTHING* IT DETECTS AS 'NON-SELF'! MASS MURDER!
3. Don't drink. Water contains microorganisms, which will die in your body, or will die in the sterilization process.
4. Don't breathe. For much the same reason as drinking things.
A zygote, an embryo, or a fetus is but a group of cells. It is NOT a human being, it is only a human potential. But yes, it is alive.
[Edit: However there is a point where I feel the potential is more a strong likelyhood. After that point, I think it is definatly wrong. For example, to my ideals, 7 months pregnant is very wrong, two months pregnant is not at all.]
[ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]
Like I said, I am pro-choice. If a woman wants to have an abortion, she is probably going to do it. The cleaner and safer the environment, the better. Not all clinics are that safe, though. The staff is not always highly trained, some may not have a clue what the fuck they are doing. Stuff like that tends to happen because the staff is not trained well enough in what they're doing. Bad clinics do exist -- they perform abortions "assembly line" style on a particular day and use counselors that are trained to "sell" abortions and convince women that abortion is the only way. Legal, state-funded clinics with doctors who have a clue are good; symptoms and long-term side effects are minimal in those cases. But there are just as many bad clinics as there are good ones.
And for alot of states, the only requirement to perform abortions is a medical license. That's it. Experience comes on the job. That's one of the many reasons bad clinics exist. Some psychiatrists and ear, nose and throat specialists have been known to perform abortions, as well as some people with no medical training at all. They are supposed to do an ultrasound on the woman before they perform the abortion; do you think all of them do that? There have been cases of doctors performing abortions on women who weren't even pregnant.
Anyway, I'm not really sure what we are 'locking horns' about. I like to think my first post had alot of good examples of how not ALL clinics are all super safe and squeaky clean with doctors who know exactly what they are doing, because if ALL or even MOST clinics were like that, that list would probably be cut in half. The bad clinics are still around because women who are desperate do not educate themselves about their options and make sure that what they are doing will be safe.
As she said, abortions are just as dangerous to the mother. Why should they NOT be regulated with standards for safetly like any OTHER legal medical practice?
Edit: I agree totally with Dens here. There should be a set standard for clinics, they should be regulated by health agencies, covered under HMO's, etc. [ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Azrael Heavenblade ]
If this goes against being a Roman Catholic and all oh fucking well.
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Azrael Heavenblade said:
Sorry, misread your post there. Just wanted to point out that if this goes through, there won't be any of the good, funded clinics anymore.Edit: I agree totally with Dens here. There should be a set standard for clinics, they should be regulated by health agencies, covered under HMO's, etc.
Yeah, definitely. Some states are like that, but it should definitely be all of them.
quote:
Azrael Heavenblade had this to say about Knight Rider:
Lyinar, although I hate to say this, is a good example of what might happen if abortions were made illegal. Although she chose it on her own, thus making it partially her fault, choosing to have her son did raise tons of problem for her. Now, say there was someone else in her stead that really did want to go through with an abortion, but was told she couldn't, then had her future ruined. And its not just women with this problem, the father most of the time ends up having to get a job to support his kid, sending child care money, his future is gone too.
One other reason I contemplated it was for health reasons. I only have one kidney, and they were extremely worried about my being pregnant like that. They watched that one kidney like a hawk. I had to have constant blood tests for diabetes, and they also did urine tests constantly to make sure all was going well there.
It's enough of a worry that I don't think I'm going to have anymore. I had no trouble with Simon, other than getting fat. I didn't even have morning sickness. But the last thing I want to do is push my luck. And Deth doesn't want me to do anything that's going to put my life at risk, either.
So I'd hate to be selfish, but if my birth control pills failed somehow and I got pregnant, and it was going to kill me, I would abort the baby. I'm not self-sacrificing enough to end my own life so another that's not even there can replace it.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
Also, why when a pregnant woman is murdered do they say that "(insert name) and her unborn child were killed", but if the "mother" wants to kill her unborn child, it's no longer a child, but a "blob of cells" or something? [ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Cheese ]
I also said not to attack each other. You can attack the issue all you want. I just asked that people have a bit of respect for the other board members and thier opinions.
I feel that Abortion is murder. Saying that it is the same as eating meat is trying to avoid the argument.
Many people say that people will do it anywya so we should keep it legal. Well the same could be said for drugs, murder, rape, etc. Yeah how about that. Some people will commit rape even though it is illegal. So lets just legalise it. Yeah thats the ticket. 
If women are faced to go into a back alley to take a life then so be it. I have no more sympathy for them than I do for some crackhead who tries to kill someone to get money for his next fix.
Yes that is right boys and girls I am a Cold hearted bastard. I feel that if someone is going to do something that I see as so very, very wrong then they should not get off scott free because of it. Yes I realise that this will probably piss people off but I am as entitled to my opinion as you are.
Now if a Womans life is in danger then I can see the reasonong behind having one. And in this case I would even agree with it being done if that is the Mother and Fathers decision.
*sigh*
Ok story time. Some will care some won't.
When I was a bit younger I dated a woman who got pregnant. We were in a serious relationship and who knows where it might have gone. We had even talked about getting married a couple times. Without telling me that she was pregnant she went and had an abortion. I found out through a friend who decided she thought I should know. I was heartbroken not only at the fact she had done it, but at the thought that she didn't trust me enough to confide in me. Her and I could have easily supported a child both financialy and emotionally. She never could give me a good reason as to why she did it. She just shrugged her shoulders and I walked away from the relationship. Sometimes I sit and think about the life that could have been.
Now at least anyone who cares will know one of the reasons I hate it with such a passion.
quote:
We all got dumber when Azizza said:
Many people say that people will do it anywya so we should keep it legal. Well the same could be said for drugs, murder, rape, etc. Yeah how about that. Some people will commit rape even though it is illegal. So lets just legalise it. Yeah thats the ticket.
If women are faced to go into a back alley to take a life then so be it. I have no more sympathy for them than I do for some crackhead who tries to kill someone to get money for his next fix.
I don't even know where to start.
what the hell are you talking about?
Legalizing rape, murder, and drug use will do no social good. People will still be taken advantage of, hurt, and killed.
Legalizing abortion jelps prevent women from being taken advantage of, physically damaged, rendered infertile, legally unable to right wrongs...
as a person who claims to be all about protecting women, I would think you could understand this.
That having been said...
If I were female and I got pregnant, I would want abortion to be an option, even if it was an option that I didn't end up taking. Even if there were no health risks (IE I wasn't doing it to preserve my own life), even if the pregnancy wasn't the result of rape. The fact is that I like having lots of options, and pregnancy isn't something that you, Azizza, or anyone else can decide for people you're not involved with. You shouldn't have the right to decide for Kloie, Lyinar, or any of the other ladies on the board whether or not they have the option to get an abortion. The only time you should conceivably have a say in it is if the child is potentially yours; and even then have fun taking a woman to court and getting someone to sympathetically hear your side of the case to force the woman to carry out her pregnancy. The fact is (and I hate saying this because it's such a cop-out) that it's not our body that's at risk, and it's not our life that will, like it or not, change forever (and I'm not talking smarmy parenthood stuff; a woman who has a baby is vastly more likely to be seated with taking care of the child than the father, who usually provides child support at most and can otherwise walk away).
The raw deal some woman gave you in your relationship, Azizza, is not a logical argument for eliminating abortion as an option for other couples.
If Lyinar turned out pregnant tomorrow, I would (despite my general distaste with the notion of abortion; I am not pro-abortion, but rather pro-choice) seriously consider the notion of abortion. If Lyinar and I agreed (and only if we agreed; I wouldn't pressure her into it), then I would whole-heartedly go into it. The fact is that beyond the staggering number of health risks for Lyinar (one kidney, no gall bladder; plus the health risks for a baby that might likely miscarry anyway...Simon being pretty miraculous in how he didn't come into the world early or damaged or anything), neither she nor I are in a good place in life to raise a (second, for Lyinar) child, financially or otherwise. The fact is that humanity hedges it's bets. We use birth control; is her egg sacred? Is the song right and Every Sperm Is Sacred? Are all the single guys wanking off in their bedrooms committing a little genocide every time they blow 60 million sperm away? No. And if we practice birth control scrupulously and it fails, we have the right to another option, right? Right?
I also don't like the anti-female notion in your statements. I find them personally offensive, and I'm a guy. It was an EVIL WOMAN who aborted your baby, right Azizza? It's EVIL WOMEN who are getting abortions and being likened to crack dealers, murderers, and their ilk. It's EVIL WOMEN who get abortions and who should suffer. It's EVIL WOMEN who are loose and who, if they want an abortion, be forced to go the route of a back alley abortion involving a coat hanger (which, historically, was the route most abortions went pre-Roe V. Wade). No offense, buddy, but I think you have some serious issues with women. It takes two to tango, and frankly I think that more men have a say in the abortion of an unwanted pregnancy than the media likes to portray (women, in terms of media coverage of abortion, are almost always women who were abandoned by EVIL MEN and were left to their fates). You didn't get your say, and I'm sorry for you in that respect, but most times I think that in a responsible relationship guys do have a say, even if it's not with the commanding number of votes.
And the right to options brings me to Dens's comment about how Lyinar got herself into the mess with Simon. The truth is that Lyinar made a choice. She responsibly and scrupulously used birth control (and unless you're arguing on the abstinence ticket, please don't bitch about how she could have opted to not have sex), it failed, she got pregnant. At that point, Lyinar had several choices: 1. Continue the pregnancy, keep the baby; risk catastrophic damage to her own body given the state of her health, but carry the baby to term, try and work things out with the father, keep the child; 2. Continue the pregnancy, give the child up for adoption; risk catastrophic damage to her own body given the state of her health, but carry the baby to term, try and work things out with the father, keep the child; 3. Abort the pregnancy; risk further damage (possibly catastrophic), but live with the idea of what might have been.
Lyinar opted for choice number 1. That should be completely clear. Lyinar opted to continue the pregnancy (and from what all sources tell me she had a pretty miserable pregnancy as far as pregnancies go; even causing some unforeseen damage in delivery), opted to keep her child, and opted to try and work things out with the dad, who she thought would be reasonable. Unfortunately, having a baby made a lot of her plans moot or invalid or in the very least HIGHLY delayed. But Lyinar made her choices (all of them, systematically) on the basis that the baby didn't have a choice in being conceived and Lyinar could not ultimately bring herself to give him up (which she saw as being tantamount to abandonment). Unfortunately, Lyinar discovered that: 1. Her boyfriend, while a fantastic father, was rather lacking in terms of what he could offer as a steady relationship, 2. She was now playing second-fiddle to her kid in the eyes of members of her family (or more to the point one particular member of the family) who wouldn't let her and her now ex-boyfriend handle things, and 3. once she got knocked off track, it has been exceedingly difficult to get back on track.
Ultimately, Lyinar's choices are what led her here, but they are all embodied in one person, Simon. That isn't to say that Lyinar doesn't love Simon; Lyinar is probably more harsh in words than she is in actions, and actions are worth a million words a piece. She just wishes, in the perfect clarity of hindsight, that she had taken the option not to have him. Having a child when she did, no matter how much fun it can be to have Simon around, was not the best choice for her.
Now, imagine if all women were forced into Lyinar's position as far as pregnancies were concerned. All the scrupulous women who religiously practice birth control and have it, by the luck of the dice, fail...all suddenly faced with no other option but to have their child, to face the same risks Lyinar did. Now, cold logic says they should just keep their damned legs closed, not have sex until they're ready to have a baby, and if they get pregnant they should damned well prepare to be supermoms if they want to raise a child, have a career, and never stop chasing their own dreams.
It's a very pretty, very solid, very idealistic sort of logical notion, pretty and idealistic in the way that ice crystals or diamonds are pretty and idealistic and solid, hindered only by the fact that humanity is HIGHLY illogical, warm, squishy, and has developed relatively safe alternatives to cold logic. As Blindy, I believe, put it , "You can't stop the populace from having premarital relations; you can't stop the populace from (having) unwanted pregnancies as a result of point 1," and then in response to those facts, "There will be women who wish for this pregnancy to be terminated". Not logical, not cold and idealistic, but very, very solid, and very real, and very true.
And it isn't up to anyone to try and legislate otherwise.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
One can argue that, even though it is not a person yet, a potential person deserves the same kind of protection a real person does. But by that kind of argument, every time a couple decides not to have sex, they're destroying a possible human being. Am I saying abstinence is the same thing as abortion? Of course not, there's a ludicrously huge difference between the two, a fetus is something that, unlike sperm, will inevitably become human with the aid of its mother, and deserves respect as such; however, there's an equally important jump from killing a fetus to murder. There is no mind there to suffer when a fetus is killed, there is no human life cut short, the life simply never was.
Having said that, though, I now must point out that, on a personal level, I hold almost the exact opposite opinion (I wouldn't be my good old fence-straddling self if I didn't). I buy into pretty much every argument of personal responsibility made in this thread. When a person has sex, even with protection, they accept the risk of pregnancy. Sidestepping that responsibility with an abortion, the destruction of something that would be human, is wrong (nowhere near as wrong as murder, of course, but still significantly wrong). In any case where the mother's life is not in significant danger, there are alternatives. I am a firm believer and advocate of adoption. Though many may argue about the suffering caused by adoption cases, I myself believe life to be an innately good thing. Every life has good in it, and a small amount of pleasant times can outwheigh a tremendous amount of bad. Even a horrible life of foster homes is preferable to never having been. Obviously, in rape cases, that argument doesn't hold water; the person never willingly accepted the responsibility and risk. That case is not the black and white moral situation of willing sex, I can't really call abortion wrong there. Rather, I see it as a decision of whether a person is willing to sacrifice some of their own happiness for the happiness of another (the child); never required, but a truely altruistic act.
So, you ask me "Chalesm, if you're against abortion, why are you pro-choice?" (at least, you ask that if I haven't scared you off with the first three paragraphs, if I have, you've already stopped reading). The answer to that is a bit complicated. Simply put, I believe the role of law, and the only proper role of law, is to prevent one person from harming another, and to prevent someone from significantly increasing the chance of harm coming to another. That's it. It is not the law's place to govern morality, or to force altruistic acts from people outside of a small handful of exceptions (such as forcing parents to care for their children, a case where not helping a child would significantly hurt it). A government who does that kind of thing lives in danger of a single moral ideal dominating, and preventing people from doing anything outside it. Quite simply, a fetus is not a person, only a potential one, and as such does not, and should not, recieve the protection a person gets. The death of fetuses and potential human beings is a moral grey area, and I do not want a government who believes it has the right to declare such grey areas punishable, even if I agree with the government that it's wrong.
That pretty much sums of my position on the issue. I'm sorry if I didn't explain my idea of the role of law well, it's a complicated issue, and it's been a while since I've written one of these. I'm out of practice. If I wasn't clear about it, just ask me, I'd be glad to go into more detail, but I don't want to take up more of anyone's time if it is already clear. It's an interesting topic, one which has important, and sometimes scary, implications, some of which I've considered, some of which I haven't.
Cliff notes version of the post (for those who dont want to read all that)
Abortion is not murder, a fetus has no brain.
Abortion is still wrong, a fetus is still important, personal responsibility is good.
The government shouldn't step in. Moral governing is bad.
[ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Chalesm ]
Thank you for your time.
In the beginning the Universe was created.Douglas Adams, 1952-2001
*brandishes his traditional 10-foot pole, because nothing he says will help this discussion*
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
In the beginning the Universe was created.Douglas Adams, 1952-2001
[ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Gydfather ]
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
quote:
Chalesm stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Abortion is not murder, a fetus has no brain.
Soooo...you're saying that the brain magically appears as the head comes out of the birth canal? 
quote:
Cheese had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Soooo...you're saying that the brain magically appears as the head comes out of the birth canal?
Nope. If the brain is too developed, than the fetus has become a human, and abortion really does become killing in my mind. Like I said, I place the limit a bit earlier than the "function on its own" crowd. First trimester: fine. Second trimester: I'd need to do more research for (haven't looked into the issue as deeply as I'd like, but that's life). Third: pretty definitely not. Sorry if I wasn't clear. [ 06-18-2003: Message edited by: Chalesm ]
In the beginning the Universe was created.Douglas Adams, 1952-2001
quote:
Katrinity's fortune cookie read:
<tempts the Law with juicy, spicy buffalo wings>
I can't eat wings. Stop it. 
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
quote:
Sergeant Blindy had this to say about Pirotess:
Are my 8-bit-sigs making a comeback or something?
He hasn't posted since you made them.
quote:
D stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
He hasn't posted since you made them.
It hasn't been quite that long.
In the beginning the Universe was created.Douglas Adams, 1952-2001
