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Who's Smarter?
by Cindy Osborne

The Hollywood group is at it again. Holding anti-war rallies, screaming
about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming
the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone
who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like
"stupid" , "morons", and "idiots". Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a
crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush and is embarrassed to be an
American.

So, just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's
look at the biographies of these "stupid", "ignorant", "moronic" leaders,
and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University
and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for
the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas
business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986.
He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote.
In a historic re-election victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be
elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998 winning 68.6
percent of the vote. In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic
vote, 27 percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and
65 percent of women. He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern
Republican other than Richard Nixon in 1972 and is the first Republican
gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border
counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo. (Someone began circulating a false
story about his I.Q. being lower than any other President. If you believed
it, you might want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth.)

Vice President Dick Cheney: Earned a B.A. in 1965 and a M.A. in 1966, both
in political science. Two years later, he won an American Political Science
Association congressional fellowship. One of Vice President Cheney's primary
duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign
leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our
homeland and win the War on Terrorism. In his official role as President of
the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capital Hill to meet
with Senators and members of the House of Representatives to work on the
Administration's legislative goals. In his travels as Vice President, he
has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on
the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job
they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell: Educated in the New York City public
schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he
earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. He also participated in ROTC at CCNY
and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in
June 1958. His further academic achievements include a Master of Business
Administration Degree from George Washington University. Secretary Powell is
the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations.
Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of
Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the
Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy
Distinguished Service Medal. Several schools and other institutions have
been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and
colleges across the country. (Note: He retired as Four Star General in the
United States Army)

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: Attended Princeton University on
Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval
aviator; Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59;
U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; Assistant to the President,
Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Director of the Cost of
Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74; head of
Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the President, Director of
White House Office of Operations, White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77;
Secretary of Defense, 1975-77.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge: Raised in a working class family
in veterans' public housing in Erie. He earned a scholarship to Harvard,
graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson
School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an
infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor.
After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in
private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie
County. He was elected to Congress in 1982. He was the first enlisted
Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly
re-elected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice: Earned her Bachelor's Degree in
Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of
Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and
her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the
University of Denver in 1981. (Note: Rice enrolled at the University of
Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in
Political Science (Cum Laude). She earned a Master's Degree at the
University of Notre Dame and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's
Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are
also in Political Science.) She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts
and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse
College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of
Notre Dame in 1995. At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for
International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute
for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover
Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed
(1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin,
and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army
(1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European
foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging
from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to
the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions. From 1989 through March
1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet
Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior
Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security
Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security
Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on
Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee
on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military. She was a member of the
boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab
Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of
Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San
Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of
the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in
East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of
the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula. In addition, her past board
service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation,
Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for
International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet
and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED,
public broadcasting for San Francisco. Born November 14, 1954 in
Birmingham, Alabama, she resides in Washington, D.C.

So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their
experience in affairs of State or in National Security?_ While I will
defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if
they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we
should also have all the facts on their educations and background:

Barbra Streisand : Completed high school Career: Singing and acting

Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade. Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton. Career: Acting

Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year. Career: Acting

Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U. after scandal. Career:
Acting

Julia Roberts: Completed high school. Career: Acting

Sean Penn: Completed High school. Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in
Washington, D.C. Career: Acting

Ed Asner: Completed High school. Career: Acting

George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky. Career: Acting

Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan. Career: Movie
Director

Sarah Jessica Parker: Completed High School. Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School. Career: Acting

Mike Farrell: Completed High school. Career: Acting

Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College. Career: Stand up comedienne

Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year. Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should
also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even
hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to
information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the
threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting
governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI,
Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our
allies around the world. We cannot simply believe that we have full
knowledge of the threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we
are in any way as informed as our leaders.

These celebrities have no intelligence-gathering agents, no fact-finding
groups, no insight into the minds of those who would destroy our country.
They only have a deep seated hatred for all things Republican. By nature,
and no one knows quite why, the Hollywood elitists detest Conservative
views and anything that supports or uplifts the United States of America.

The silence was deafening from the Left when Bill Clinton bombed a
pharmaceutical factory outside of Khartoum, or when he attacked the Bosnian
Serbs in 1995 and 1999. He bombed Serbia itself to get Slobodan Milosevic
out of Kosovo, and not a single peace rally was held. When our Rangers were
ambushed in Somalia and 18 young American lives were lost, not a peep was
heard from Hollywood. Yet now, after our nation has been attacked on its
own soil, after 3,000 Americans were killed, by freedom-hating terrorists,
while going about their routine lives, they want to hold rallies against
the war. Why the change? Because an honest, God-fearing Republican sits in
the White House.

Another irony is that in 1987, when Ronald Reagan was in office, the
Hollywood group aligned themselves with disarmament groups like SANE,
FREEZE and PEACE ACTION, urging our own government to disarm and freeze the
manufacturing of any further nuclear weapons, in order to promote world
peace. It is curious that now, even after we have heard all the evidence
that Saddam Hussein has chemical, biological and is very close to obtaining
nuclear weapons, their is no cry from this group for HIM to disarm. They
believe we should leave him alone in his quest for these weapons of mass
destruction, even though it is certain that these deadly weapons will
eventually be used against us in our own cities.

So why the hype out of Hollywood? Could these celebrities believe that
since they draw such astronomical salaries, they are entitled to also
determine the course of our Nation? That they can make viable decisions
concerning war and peace? Did Michael Moore have the backing of the Nation
when he recently thanked France, on our behalf, for being a "good enough
friend to tell us we were wrong"?_ I know for certain he was not speaking
for me. Does Sean Penn fancy himself a Diplomat, in going to Iraq when we
are just weeks away from war? Does he believe that his High School Diploma
gives him the knowledge (and the right) to go to a country that is
controlled by a maniacal dictator, and speak on behalf of the American
people? Or is it the fact that he pulls in more money per year than the
average American worker will see in a lifetime? Does his bank account give
him clout?

The ultimate irony is that many of these celebrities have made a shambles
of their own lives, with drug abuse, alcoholism, numerous marriages and
divorces, scrapes with the law, publicized temper tantrums, etc. How dare
they pretend to know what is best for an entire nation! What is even more
bizarre is how many people in this country will listen and accept their
views, simply because they liked them in a certain movie, or have fond
memories of an old television sitcom!

It is time for us, as citizens of the United States, to educate ourselves
about the world around us. If future generations are going to enjoy the
freedoms that our forefathers bequeathed us, if they are ever to know peace
in their own country and their world, to live without fear of terrorism
striking in their own cities, we must assure that this nation remains
strong. We must make certain that those who would destroy us are made aware
of the severe consequences that will befall them.

Yes, it is a wonderful dream to sit down with dictators and terrorists and
join hands, singing Cumbaya and talking of world peace. But it is not real.
We did not stop Adolf Hitler from taking over the entire continent of Europe
by simply talking to him. We sent our best and brightest, with the strength
and determination that this Country is known for, and defeated the Nazi
regime. President John F. Kennedy did not stop the Soviet ships from
unloading their nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962 with mere words. He
stopped them with action, and threat of immediate war if the ships did not
turn around. We did not end the Cold War with conferences. It ended with
the strong belief of President Ronald Reagan... PEACE through STRENGTH.

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Martin Sheen, for instance, has gotten arrested numerous times for demonstrating against one thing or another. I don't have the list at my disposal, but quite a few are things that most folks would consider morally or ethically right.

Janeane Garofelo has been big in grass-roots efforts at reform for who knows how long. Most of the time, again, it's stuff people would morally and ethically agree with, if not the methodology.

I categorize some "stars" in that case as being on the wrong side of this conflict. On the other hand, the audacity of some (Sean Penn on his "fact finding" mission to Iraq) is sickening. Others (Lange's publically-stated comments about being ashamed to be an American) are about as unpatriotic as it comes.

See...here's the deal with war: It's horrific. It's terrible. It's a penetrative act for both sides, psychologically and (all too frequently) physically. No one in the world WANTS to go to war. That's where the celebrities have it right. Do you think Colin Powell or Rumsfeld or Bush honestly sat down one day and said "Hey I've got a hankering for a war, let's get a pizza and work the numbers." ? Negative. I would daresay that no President, Republican OR Democrat, has ever sat down and cooked up such a thing. It may have looked different to certain parties in the opposition, but it only looks that way because we have the freedom to look around and think such ludicrous things.

You're free to say and think terrible things about your government, because of the other truth of War: It is, unfortunately, necessary at times. That in itself is a big, nasty, dark truth of the world. War is necessary. Unfortunately, many of Hollyweird's actors don't quite get that. Probably never will.

At this point, their opinions against Bush are just what they are because it's easy to pick on Bush.

At least there are some celebs I can respect. Bill Maher, for one. He can be a jerk, a jackass, etc, but at least he's an intelligent guy. At least he sticks by his point, rain or shine.

Wish his show on ABC hadn't gotten booted...Politically Incorrect rocked.

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael said this about your mom:
Wish his show on ABC hadn't gotten booted...Politically Incorrect rocked.

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There's always Tough Crowd with Colin Quinn.

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Nicole probably says this to all the girls:
Fun thing to note is that education does not automatically mean you're a smart, gerat, wonderful person.

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However if your in a postion to make rather important choices, the level eduction does wonders for how well you can do that job. Dunno how it is in Canuckistan, but haveing a Highschool education in the Good US of A is pretty much worthless, Hell I don't even think any HS teaches Civics anymore, it a fricking shame I had to get in in College via US history.

Education helps, but it isn't everything.

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Nicole painfully thought these words up:
True, but if you measure the worth or weight of a person's opinion based on education, you're just being stupid.

Education helps, but it isn't everything.

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If you want to go around trashing other peoples' intelligence, it accounts for a whole lot, sister.

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Nicole had this to say about dark elf butts:
Fun thing to note is that education does not automatically mean you're a smart, gerat, wonderful person.

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That article wasn't just pointing out education, however, but experiences and accomplishments, which oftentimes speak volumes.

[ 03-25-2003: Message edited by: Fazum'Zen Fastfist ]

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about Tron:

That article wasn't just pointing out education, however, but experiences and accomplishments, which oftentimes speak volumes.

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Which is why I generally don't take actors seriously.

But I judge a person's opinion based on the weight of that particular opinion, not the fact that they did this or that or didn't do this or that.

STOP FLAMING SADDAM, GEORGE W.!! YOU ARE A PIG AND A BITCH

Of course people that are headed on a political track are going to have more formal education, while people that are headed towards more artistic endeavors are going to end their education earlier. The issue is fundamentally one of morality, and morality should not be reserved for those that succeed in formal education.

Most of you have flamed people that launch into ad hominem attacks at one point or another.
From http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

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An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

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Furthermore, even ignoring that fallacy the article is incredibly biased. Notice how it provides a lengthy discourse into the careers of each of the favored politicians, but doesn't bother to delve into any even quasi-relevant endeavors of the disfavored opponents of the war.

If they want to protest and give good reason for protesting, that's fine. When Hollywood backs it up with little more than "Bush is a moron" then I'm not going to take their opinon very seriously, and I doubt other people who keep themselves educated about the world will either.

Fire off your mouth again ignorantly and I'll come down on you like...let's see...term Faz will understand... ah yes. Like a Kamehameha from Goku. Capiche, DBZ-Boy? I see you pop into thread after thread, make nasty comments, post once...maybe twice to make nasty comments, then leave. Other folks might shrug it off and say "That's how Faz always is" but not me. Back off.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about pies:
Okay, so are you more likely, in something like a war discussion, to credit the opinion of someone like Bloodsage or someone like say, Faz?

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Actually, Faz, if it came to it, since he hasn't proven himself to be incredibly biased so far. But this isn't a question of opinions, it's a debate over the stance of our country. I'll believe whoever ponies up the evidence, and in this war, I'm straddling the fence because neither side has done so convincingly.

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So quoth Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael:
No cable. If I had cable, I'd watch Maher's new show on HBO.

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Surviver: Politically Incorrect

Outwit. Outlast. Outdebate.

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Rabidbunnylover'nix had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Actually, Faz, if it came to it, since he hasn't proven himself to be incredibly biased so far. But this isn't a question of opinions, it's a debate over the stance of our country. I'll believe whoever ponies up the evidence, and in this war, I'm straddling the fence because neither side has done so convincingly.

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I posted that comparison to tie into Nicole's post about experience, actually. I wondered whose opinion she would place more value on, and most importantly, why.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael said this about your mom:
RBL, the point is that if you're going to go around calling someone "moron" "idiot" and such, you'd better have the backing in your own intelligence before you claim someone else doesn't possess it.

If they want to protest and give good reason for protesting, that's fine. When Hollywood backs it up with little more than "Bush is a moron" then I'm not going to take their opinon very seriously, and I doubt other people who keep themselves educated about the world will either.

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Agreed, but this article's doing little more than saying, "[Celebrity X] is a moron because they dropped out of high school." Sure, it's evidence if you squint *real* hard, maybe. But it's still a far cry from the issue at hand. At least Moore and company have the excuse that they only had a minute or so on stage, which is hardly enough to express a well formulated argument.

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Drysart had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Let's not forget about Ronald Reagan... man now there was a celebrity who should have kept his "Stupid because he's famous" mouth shut! Any Sonny Bono... and ooo.. don't forget Charleton Heston.

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Big difference is that they possessed experience and knowledge of the subject they may have been speaking of. Many celebrities lately have merely been grandstanding on an issue they haven't even bothered to do research into. That's what makes me lose my respect for the way they choose to use their popularity.

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We were all impressed when Rabidbunnylover'nix wrote:
Agreed, but this article's doing little more than saying, "[Celebrity X] is a moron because they dropped out of high school." Sure, it's evidence if you squint *real* hard, maybe. But it's still a far cry from the issue at hand. At least Moore and company have the excuse that they only had a minute or so on stage, which is hardly enough to express a well formulated argument.

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To be honest, with how he presented himself, Moore *did* look like a moron. The other two gentleman who made statements did it much more eloquently and in a much more agreeable manner.

Cheney, during the Clinton administration, was CEO of Halliburton Industries, an oil company that had a strong business relationship with Saddam Hussein.

Bush and Cheney both had dealings with Enron, even appointing an Enron CEO as a Presidential advisor.

I could go on and on, even to include that out President has only a fourth grade reading level, got into Yale despite there being hundreds of applicants with higher GPAs and SAT scores. Money goes a long way in America. Then of course, there's Bush's felony records of drunk driving as well as joining the National Guard, then going AWOL for a year and a half.

It's not a question of smart or stupid. It's a question of good or evil. I'm merely putting out more facts. I'll keep my opinions to myself.

"It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, and incumbency." -George W. Bush, 2001 while speaking to Swedish Prime Minister, unaware a live television camera was still rolling.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Okay, so are you more likely, in something like a war discussion, to credit the opinion of someone like Bloodsage or someone like say, Faz?

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Depends not on the person, but the opinion expressed.

I strive to be as unbiased as possible while still keeping my own opinions, which is both really hard and really weird.

'Sides, Bloodsage can be anagrammed to BS! BS! I think that speaks for itself, don't you?

joekitude!

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We were all impressed when Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael wrote:
Faz...that comment about Lyinar was in rather bad taste. She could have very well said Death of Rats or Karnaj or Trent or any other non-military person, for that matter. It was a quick pulling of a name out of the proverbial hat.

Fire off your mouth again ignorantly and I'll come down on you like...let's see...term Faz will understand... ah yes. Like a Kamehameha from Goku. Capiche, DBZ-Boy? I see you pop into thread after thread, make nasty comments, post once...maybe twice to make nasty comments, then leave. Other folks might shrug it off and say "That's how Faz always is" but not me. Back off.

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I think Faz's assumption that Lyinar was essentially calling him an idiot was fair enough. Mostly because he has that "DBZ/kung fu loving dumdum" image he can't seem to shrug off so I imagine one can be sensitive about things like that.

The topic up to then with me and Nicole had been experience versus inexperience. So you have Sage, who has lots of experience, and Faz, who has not had the opportunity to have very much experience.

Never once in there did I mention him being an idiot, or the DBZ thing, or the martial arts thing. Others on the boards that have posted in political threads seem to be keeping up on it pretty well, and Faz was the first to come to mind of who I could think of who I didn't think really was that interested in the politics of things.

So it seemed a good comparison. Sage is in the military, and is very informed on the topic. Faz is not in the military that I know of, and (not that he couldn't understand what's going on), but I don't get the impression that he really cares to keep up with things, so he would be on the opposite end of the spectrum as far as being informed.

Don't put actions on me that I didn't do, JooJoo. Especially when you know I'm not that type of person at all.

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Nicole had this to say about Optimus Prime:
True, but if you measure the worth or weight of a person's opinion based on education, you're just being stupid.

Education helps, but it isn't everything.

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ACES! Another post by Nicole:
True, but if you measure the worth or weight of a person's opinion based on education, you're just being stupid.

Education helps, but it isn't everything.

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An Opinion should be backed up by facts, other wise it is not a very good opinon.

And educated person stand better a chance to have a better grasp on the facts, or at least know facts rather than base off of False information. However this does not mean a person with an education automaticly will have a better opinon, cause first hand experiance is worth its weight in gold. It is a mix of both, and when it comes to something like this you need alot both.

To Bring some point back to the post, When was the last time one of these actors ran a real country? Or have trained or gone to war in real life? Other than fake wars and pretending to be real leaders, what experiance or fact can these actors place as a stronghold to their opinion?

Seriously, who do you think fears you? "Oh no! He'll attack me with his Essay of Smiting +2!"

Give it a rest, jocko.

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We were all impressed when Lyinar Ka`Bael wrote:
Where in anything in that post did I call him an idiot?

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Did I say you did? Re-read my post.

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Drysart had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Let's not forget about Ronald Reagan... man now there was a celebrity who should have kept his "Stupid because he's famous" mouth shut! Any Sonny Bono... and ooo.. don't forget Charleton Heston.

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I don't believe any of them tried to claim the president was stupid. They particularly didn't do so based on no other evidence than the fact that his public speaking skills aren't top notch and the fact that he's wearing an elephant pin instead of a donkey.

Sorry, if you want to flame a president, have an argument first. Half the limousine liberals out there couldn't point out Iraq on a map.

[ 03-25-2003: Message edited by: Maradon XP ]

So how is his assumption that I called him an idiot fair enough?