So, all the people Ive talked to have had very mixxed opnions about this. mostly the clerics hate it, the druids/shamen love it everyone else likes it a bit. Personaly, and as a druid, I feel it gives me a chance to be an effective healer in the higher end grind groups, and has the potential to make me more than a patch healer on raids. And what I like even more is that with this we would no longer have to have any one class to take out high end targets. The total dependance on seems to be finaly comeing to an end. I just hpe it actually makes it live.
Now, I wanna know what everyone else thinks.
[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: Ceik ]
As a shaman I get a 1950 heal at max, and ONLY if that brings them up to 75% of max HP or less....
I'd rather just have a straight 2k heal. 
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Pirotess:
Soooo...clerics do what now? click the clickstick?
Um... CH... *duh*
Or a pack of shamans? Dunno. Shamans and Druids say "Hey we want bigger heals" and they get them. Clerics had AC buffs, Biggest heal, and the clickstick to their name. Now they have AC buffs and the clickstick, and the Shammies and Druids get upgraded heals. People might be more willing to skip the cleric (save as the person who clicks the clickstick) in favor of a bunch of druids. Or shamans.
Sounds like, in other words, that clerics are slowly getting edged out.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Clerics shouldn't complain that druids/shaman are getting better heals, because clerics are doomed to casting Complete heal, its simply more effecient then any other heal they currently have.
Right now I think a cleric only needs to heal someone for a little over 1200hp with CH to be more effecient then any other heal (Im sure Ferrel probably knows the exact number).
From a shaman perspective however, it basically makes me a better spot healer for other people. I'll still use torpor on myself for personal healing, since 1950 is not even close to 75% of my buffed hps (I buff around 5100hp).
It was a needed change.
Secondly, a 2k heal from a druid/shaman != 10k heal from a cleric. Much less the ability to outdo an aegolism. if we're talkin buffs.
Thirdly, I'll agree with you the day that shamen and druids can rez. Until then, the cleric will never be replaced.
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Pirotess:
People might be more willing to skip the cleric (save as the person who clicks the clickstick) in favor of a bunch of druids. Or shamans.Sounds like, in other words, that clerics are slowly getting edged out.
Nah, as long as Complete heal is 'required' for larger raids (not just uber guilds...even medium dragon raids) clerics will have a job. Unfortunatly for most, its one of the most boring things to do.
Complete heal rotations are the foundation raid skill.
1: Increase Hitpoints by 75% (2925 max)
Mana: 400 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 10 Recast Time: 0
Fizzle Time: 2.5 Resist: Unresistable
Range: 100 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Target Type: All
Spell Type: Beneficial Source: Test 08/22
Classes: DRU/54
Duration: Instant
Cast on you: This spell is a test spell and may not go live!
Cast on other: Someone The ratio and stats on this spell may change! Don't Panic!
SIGNIFIGANT raids do NOT happen without multiple clerics, shamen and druids. Support healing is JUST as important and sometimes MORE important than the Cleric heal chain. All this does is let them be a bit more efficent on the end game.
Shamans pratically have no heal after level 54. We get Cloroblast and Torpor. Oh, I'm sorry, we get assfucked for Torpor and we can't use it to heal anyone signifigant (read: tanks, damage dealers) because of the negatives. Oh yeah, and due to the negatives it's GROUP ONLY. As support healers Shamen are fucked and fucked hard. Granted we get all the cool buffs and we're usually dead from slowing. Not that anyone notices or gives a shit unless they want Focus/Stamina/Acumen.
Druids on the other hand do get some decent support heals and this allows them to be better at "post combat mop up" than they are now. Plus the fact that this is doing up to 3k in healing for them makes it a bit nicer. Druids are getting fucked a bit in that this heal replaces their final heal they get at 60 (and like Torpor, it's not all that easy). This will probally get changed around a bit, but getting a 75%/3k max heal is still damned nice and is IMPOSSIBLE to replace a cleric with.
Shamans? Shamans arent known for heals, nor would I want my shaman known for heals. The new DoT stacking makes Shamans far more powerful on raids now. They will be keeping things like PoB and BoN ( do any shamans have Ancient: Scourge of Nife yet? ) on mobs now after it is slowed / debuffed. And they *can* heal if needed. I dont really think you are going to see Druids on Winged Death duty as they are the support healers now. Shamans and Necros are very very dangerous now, lets not forget that.
Clerics will always have a position in raids, of that I have no worry.
This just further builds up the ability for clerics not to be worthwhile in experience groups. Now, more then ever, a shaman is more useful in an experience group if this goes live.
The new cleric heals I'm not so crazy about. They're picking some odd shit to balance clerics. For example Yaulp V. Its a crappy spell that they're trying to buy us off with.
I saw one today that was a really crappy heal that is just long range. I'm not sure what these crack heads are up to but they;ve obviously not been listening.
Regardless, I'm happy for shamans and druids for the most part.
Ferrel!
50 more mana than throwing a GCH?
And as for the shaman and druid heals... I absofuckingloutely hate them. But not like my opinion matters or anything
Inefficient as all hell... Post combat might be the only use considering it's a HoT spell, but even then GCH winds up being the better choice since it's less mana.
And Suchii, you're not even of the level where you're competing against this spell.
Clerics that hate the new Druid/Shaman Changes are suffering from Rogue Syndrome
quote:
Pesco impressed everyone with:
Shamans? Shamans arent known for heals, nor would I want my shaman known for heals. The new DoT stacking makes Shamans far more powerful on raids now. They will be keeping things like PoB and BoN ( do any shamans have Ancient: Scourge of Nife yet? ) on mobs now after it is slowed / debuffed. And they *can* heal if needed.
I haven't heard of any shaman with it yet.
With the new dot stacking we will be even more powerful at soloing.
quote:
Reynar wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I haven't heard of any shaman with it yet.With the new dot stacking we will be even more powerful at soloing.
I don't see how...
You can't stack multiple copies of BoN or EBolt on a mob, but if you were teamed with another shaman (or a necromancer in the case of EBolt) you could both DoT the hell outta something....
quote:
Random Insanity Generator spewed forth this undeniable truth:
I don't see how...You can't stack multiple copies of BoN or EBolt on a mob, but if you were teamed with another shaman (or a necromancer in the case of EBolt) you could both DoT the hell outta something....
Um, yea you'll be able to stack multiple copies of BoN/PoB. Taken from: http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4486
quote:
This means that it will now not only be possible to stack multiple DoT spells on NPC's, but you will be able to do enough of them that it really will make a significant improvement to the damage output of DoT specializing classes such as Necromancers, Shamans and Druids.
So I could cast 20 Nifes on a monster if I wanted to.
All the other sites have been pointing out that the DoTs will stack from MULTIPLE Sources, not from a SINGLE Source.
You can still nail him with VoS/EBolt/BoN and Scourge/Plague/PoB combos, but you're not going to get 20 BoN to stack on him....
quote:
Random Insanity Generator painfully thought these words up:
WHy not read a better site....All the other sites have been pointing out that the DoTs will stack from MULTIPLE Sources, not from a SINGLE Source.
You can still nail him with VoS/EBolt/BoN and Scourge/Plague/PoB combos, but you're not going to get 20 BoN to stack on him....
Ok, point me to a better site?
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Azizza said:
It was stated at the begining that you would not be able to stack muliple copies of a DOT from the same caster. If I cast Plague and another Necromancer Casts Plague then they will stack. However if I cast it twice it will just reset the timer on the DOT.
And a higher level DoT overwrites a lower level DoT as well (which is what happens now anyways I think). I wonder if this DoT stacking will make it so that when 2 DoT'ers are grouped with a spell circle difference between them, it might be better for the Higher level DoTer to cast their lower level dots?
And as for the new Druid and Shammy heals, I am all for them (and I'm left wondering if they'll move SupHeal down a bit further now too). I've got both a Cleric at L49 and a Druid at L51, and I don't think this will affect things too much for XPing groups anyways.
In XP Grind groups, I usually find myself not using CHeal too much unless we have adds without a Mezzer. In good groups, the battles in an XP group don't last long enough for the PC's to get muhc damage. Often times I find myself stepping in with my hammer just to keep my meelee skills up, or I'll play the fury game and keep the Main Tank around 2 bubs of Health.
If your group needs a CHeal or two every battle in an XP group, then I doubt that the new Druid and Shammy heals will make that much difference in the end, other than maybe making the group consider moving to easier fields.
Most of the people who are complaining about this seem to be taking the view that an XP Grind Group with no healers usually has one spot available and they see two L54 char's LFG, one Cleric and one Druid and they'll take the Druid because the Druid is more versatile.
Me, my Point of view on this is that that sort of situation doesn't come up as often as you think, except in the overcamped Safe XP camps (Velks, DL, KC, Seb, etc....).
What *I* see more often is a group of 5 without a healer looking for one and ignoring the Druid because they want a 'real healer'. (And for the record, I also just as often see my Cleric passed up because the group wants a SoW/Snaring class or a slowing class ). With the new heals at least, the group mentionned above would hopefully be more willing to take on a Druid or Shammy if a Cleric wasn't available, instead of the group sitting around bitching about not doing anything cuz they want a real healer.
Another thing to consider is that the Cleric might have become too Specialized and Too Set in its ways, hence the uproar. You can look at this as a chance to give Clerics the opportunity to try some other skills besides:
/sit off
/cast 3
/g Comp Heal on %t in 10 seconds
/pause 1000
/sit on
Clerics are the ONLY caster class that wears plate (and if you aren't wearing plate why the hell aren't you?), thus of all the pure casting classes Clerics can take the hits the best, especially with the AC and HP buffs we can cast on ourselves. We have a memblur spell, self-invulnerability spells, the best damn rezzes in the game and still the best Heals in the game, not to mention the most variety in ways we can heal. We have decent nukes considering our specialty is NOT nuking, we have nukes and DoT's vs Undead mobs that are no slouches either, and by the levels we're talkign about here we have enough stuns to keep a mob occupied throughout the battle (Not to mention they're looking into giving Cleric's a Bash skill too) Oh and they're also looking to give Clerics a short term self only buff that Hastes, improves standing mana regen and a few other nice things, not to mention a summoned hammer that procs often for 100+ damage.
Do many people realize clerics have all this? Not usually. For a lot of people, if they see the Cleric standing to do anything but Heal and refresh the Buffs, they start panicing and tell them to sit back down and Med.
If there was another class that could heal well enough to take a cleric's role and let the cleric do more in battle, I'm all for it.
Heck one of my dreams that I'd love to see is a dungeon with mobs immune/resistant to a Druid's offensive spells but hitable with the Undead spells a Cleric has... basically it would be a dungeon where the Cleric and Druid would be swapping roles for a change.
But that's all just my opinion in any case. 
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Well, this is a very idealistic view of clerics and I think its nice to see it this way, but it isnt all correct.
As far as "Plate." In EQ right now there is no or no noticable mitigation or avoidance difference between armor types. So when you say clerics can take hits the best because of it, you're incorrect. At my level of the game, armor type is blurred by 65 AC chain BPs, 55 AC leather BPs, etc. Druids and shamans can get just as much or more ac then clerics.
Atone (memblur) rarely works on mobs higher level then 35 and almost never works on mobs 45 and higher.
Auras and Resurrections are great, yes.
Our DoTs are a joke. Our regular undead nuke is more efficient and our regular nuke is even better then our undead nuke. This makes no sense to me.
Bash wouldn't do anything for clerics really, we dont have to Atk to hit a mob after 50ish.
See, I'm not sure where this balance is going for clerics. They're giving us better pets and as you said, Yaulp 5. This adds Atk, Haste, and Mana regen (pathetic you gain less then 40 mana total). Its more efficient to med. Cleric melee will never make any difference.
They've niched us into Complete Healing and now they're trying to give us something we're never going to have time to do.
Ferrel!
Anyway... Clerics cant take hits worth a damn. It is all about Defense and Clerics have a 200 cap. You can have all the AC in the world, but due to soft caps and defense caps, it means jack squat.
quote:
Ferrel was listening to Cher while typing:
Well, this is a very idealistic view of clerics and I think its nice to see it this way, but it isnt all correct.As far as "Plate." In EQ right now there is no or no noticable mitigation or avoidance difference between armor types. So when you say clerics can take hits the best because of it, you're incorrect. At my level of the game, armor type is blurred by 65 AC chain BPs, 55 AC leather BPs, etc. Druids and shamans can get just as much or more ac then clerics.
Atone (memblur) rarely works on mobs higher level then 35 and almost never works on mobs 45 and higher.
Auras and Resurrections are great, yes.
Our DoTs are a joke. Our regular undead nuke is more efficient and our regular nuke is even better then our undead nuke. This makes no sense to me.
Bash wouldn't do anything for clerics really, we dont have to Atk to hit a mob after 50ish.
See, I'm not sure where this balance is going for clerics. They're giving us better pets and as you said, Yaulp 5. This adds Atk, Haste, and Mana regen (pathetic you gain less then 40 mana total). Its more efficient to med. Cleric melee will never make any difference.
They've niched us into Complete Healing and now they're trying to give us something we're never going to have time to do.
Bash's main use I can forsee is to add another chance for a spell interrupt mainly, and is what I would use it for. I can't count the number of times I've been hunting the gnolls in Jagged Pines recently and wished I had a Bash or a Stun up (I've been hunting with my druid and I rarely have my druid stuns up) to interrupt the caster.
And what do you mean by 'never have time to do'? Is it because you spend so much time healing in a group you don't have the chance to do anything else? Well the Druid/Shammy heals will help with that. Or do you mean because you might be spending more time LFG? Well many of the spells and tweeks being introduced are trying to make cleric's more soloable (and could probably use more tweeking but it's a start at least)
Also, don't forget the changes announced are only phase one, phase two for clerics is pending analysis of the new changes done now.
In any case, instead of just raging mindlessly about the changes on test (not that I'm saying anyone is ranting and raging here), my suggestion would be to make a Cleric wish list of sorts; ideas you think would make the cleric class more versatile without unbalancing them too much (ie no asking for group ports or SoW or things like that). Take that list and send it to the Dever's corner. Be reasonable and they're more likely to consider it and not toss the entire thing out (and any good ideas you may have had with it)
Goign off track a bit, all things considered, my wishlist (which includes the Dungeon change I mentionned above) would include:
Improved Undead DoT's; make them a mirror of the Druid normal DoT's or something similar like that.
Improved/rebalanced Undead nukes in general, point out the differences you mentionned above.
More group buffs; something like the Druid's Protection Of line of spells.
Hmm, I had other ideas that I forgot now. Oh well, it's a start. That's basically what I sent to Devers corner anyways.
Anyway, Phase 2 is all I care about.
Clerics will be able to at least solo now, vs not being able to before. It w/ill be bad, but its something.
Phase 2 are changes that make us wanted in groups. We're extremely lacking there now. So this is what I'm interested most in.
Ferrel!
I now know why I'd be horrible at the high end EQ game...I don't care the slightest about spell affects or haste ratios or anything, I know my auto attack button =p
quote:
Ferrel had this to say about (_|_):
I sent my letter a few days ago =DAnyway, Phase 2 is all I care about.
Clerics will be able to at least solo now, vs not being able to before. It w/ill be bad, but its something.
Phase 2 are changes that make us wanted in groups. We're extremely lacking there now. So this is what I'm interested most in.
Just curious, what would you like to see in Phase 2? Off the top of my head, about the only thing I can really think of right away would be a group form of some of our Shield buffs. It makes me want to cry when I start seeing Bravery and my other shields start flashing. (Can't recall their names now hehe)
Improved undead spells might be nice to have. I doubt it's possible to set up, but a high damage undead only (Phantasm spikes?) Damage shield might be nice. (Sorry I focus on Undead so much, they're what I tend to fight when I switch back to my cleric. Maybe there could be some Undead Debuff spells we could get instead, miscellaneous slows and resistance/AC lowerers, on par with other classes.
More versions of Healing shields for lower levels maybe, so young clerics get used to them?
A minor thing, but clerics should IMO get their own bind wound caps raised to 70% as they level up. (Start at 50%, then 55% at 20, 60% at 40, 65% at 50 and 70% at L55, rising to 100% through AA abilities)? They are the masters of healing; even if they are casting heal spells, they should know the bodies enough to bind people's wounds better than 50%.
Man I'm drawing a blank now as for what else could improve clerics. :< Oh well
quote:
ACES! Another post by Pesco:
Focusing on Undead Spell Lines will come back and bite clerics in the ass IMO. Not enough undead in the game. Look at all the high end EXP zones, um.. pretty much no undead.
Well, with better undead spell lines, there would be a better reason to put more undead mobs into the game at the high end. And they do exist from what I understand, they're just rarer. Luclin seems to have a lot of Undead mob camps from what I hear.
(And hell, I just love hunting zones like ToFS.
Druids alone can:
Heal Well
Buff Well
Use Utility
Nuke Well
Evac and port
Shaman alone can:
Heal better the druid
Buff well
Use less utility
Nuke average
Sow
Debuff the best
Clerics alone can:
Heal the Best
Buff the best alone
No utility
No Travel spells
Res
Nuke poorly
So, I'd ask for a debuff or two that was unique. I'd ask for some utility spells (we'll never get). I'd ask that they make us extremely effective vs undead and then make PoP have some undead.
Ferrel!
Druids get Nature's Touch which is far more useful than Torpor.
Shamen can heal themselves and casters in their group well... The use of Torpor as a heal is like a cleric using nothing but HoTs for their healing... It's somewhat mana efficient, but it's not your best idea.
quote:
Pesco had this to say about Tron:
Focusing on Undead Spell Lines will come back and bite clerics in the ass IMO. Not enough undead in the game. Look at all the high end EXP zones, um.. pretty much no undead.
Most of the Ssrae basement is undead. As are a good portion of the snakes.
Acrylia has undead, as does Akheva and VT.
And the grey is crawling with undead. Undead in Umbral as well =)
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
