Apparantly, this kid has not one Stealthy bone in his body. (I.e. Plays Metal Gear Solid 2 with Guns blazing, instead of the stealthy approach)
I think, just to get him off being a rogue, that I should make up a dungeon RIDDLED with traps and such fun things.
The relic in the dungeon will be guarded by a Rogue god (custom made) and is asleep in a sort of Stasis mode. He can't be harmed in any way until woken, and the only way to wake him up, is to trigger one of the Alarm Spell Traps in his room.
I think this would be a good way to force him into being stealthy like a rogue should be, yes?
Suddar fucked around with this message on 03-21-2005 at 07:38 PM.
quote:Unless the characters are level 30+, I'd advise against that. Vehemently.
Ninety-nine bottles of Redmage Darkrayver on the wall, ninety-nine bottles of Redmage Darkrayver...
The relic in the dungeon will be guarded by a Rogue god
Traps and whatnot are fine. It'll encourage the rogue to use his skills, and maybe his head, instead of just his backstab. But if you want something that's dormant until woken by an alarm, use something that doesn't have human size or infinite attack range. Like a wyrm or a tarrasque, if the party is around that level.
Since you've already told us some about the friend who got you into D&D, and in particular his DMing style, and since this is your "random shit" game, I won't press any issues about diplomacy or roleplay scenarios.
quote:
There was much rejoicing when Suddar said this:
Rogues don't have to be "stealthy." A rogue can be a diplomat, a trader, a performer, a thug, an adventurer, thief...whatever you want. Rogues, moreso than any other character, are defined by their skills. Forcing this kid to be stealthy is approaching the class one-dimensionally. Rogues can very easily be a "bruiser," especially given 3E's flexible class system. (And remember, sneak attack doesn't require stealth.)
Exactly. Saying rogues have to be stealthy is like saying fighters have to wear plate armour and weild swords longer than the weilder is tall. Yeah, it's the general archetype, and a rogue can certainly put skill in stealth to good use, but it takes away the most fun aspect of D&D: Versatility.
Remember, RM, this isn't EverQuest on paper. Each class isn't forced into specific roles, things are very flexible. Even among fighters, who are, in a few words, the game's fighting class. All the fighter can really do in D&D is fight. However, what kind of warrior do you want to make? A knight? A fencer? A samurai? A zealot? A conqueror? All of them are the same class, only built quite differently.
I've never played a dungeon delving rogue. It sickens me to no end to believe that my character has focused his ENTIRE LIFE on being able to jump over spike-ridden pits.
No. My rogue's gonna say he's the greatest swordsman in the world, and people will believe him. Then he's going to say he's dying from a horrible disease a la Ferris Beuler, and people will give him money because they're so sympathetic to the dying, yet way cool, great swordsman.
My rogue will also have an 8 strength. Other rogues will say, "What a fuckin' rogue!" and applaud.
-dream ended-
quote:
Ruvyen wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Exactly. Saying rogues have to be stealthy is like saying fighters have to wear plate armour and weild swords longer than the weilder is tall. Yeah, it's the general archetype, and a rogue can certainly put skill in stealth to good use, but it takes away the most fun aspect of D&D: Versatility.
True, but the party I've been with in our normal campaign, and such, have no comphension of traps.
So I'm going to do this to teach this kid early on to be wary of ANYTHING in D&D when your a rogue.
I'm going to Make some of the traps obvious, and the rest, not so obvious. I'm tempted to give the guy a chance IF he wakes the god up (which I assume safely that he will), he can have a chance to bluff his way or such to get the artifact.
He will get the opportunity to start in a town, gather information and such...but I'm focusing on the Dungeon alone first. Then once I create the god, I can build storyline
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about pies:
Your campaign sounds lame if you're trying to pigeonhole your players.
I'm just throwing this one guy in this dungeon to get him into the Rogue mindset in using all his skills...or force him to choose another class that he can play.
*shrugs* From what my friend says, his brother doesn't comprehend steath or rogue-like strategies. If he's anything like the rest of my normal campaign's people...then he'll Die halfway to the relic on a trap.
I want to be mean. There won't be much in the way of combat in the dungeon. He can get the chance to use sneak attack and such to kill the few I'll throw in, but I'll make sure that he knows that rogues aren't the best head to head fighters.
quote:
Redmage Darkrayver had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Rogue mindset
That is myth #1 that has been planted in your brain by video games.
The truth is that there is no such thing as a "rogue mindset". If you think going around with guns blazing and saber rattling is the "wrong" way to play a rogue, then you aren't playing D&D right.
In fact, if you think there's such a thing as a "wrong" way to play ANY character, you're probably grossly misunderstanding the entire point of the game.
If he wants to go around slashing shit up, by all means let him. He'll NEED to do that if he plans on qualifying for some of the more combat oriented rogue prestige classes. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 03-21-2005 at 11:55 PM.
Model 1: Thali
Concept: Gnomish Cat Burglar
Notes:
Thali can't really fight her way out of a wet paper bag. She can climb and hide and sneak and pick locks and detect traps and so forth like nobody's business. She's a one-gnome multitool when it comes to getting into and out of places. But while she has sneak attack damage, she's very much not oriented toward offense. If Thali is forced into combat, her primary goal is almost always to retreat behind one of the party tanks. Thali is also extremely hard to hit due to selection of skills and feats.
Model 2: Ainanta
Concept: Half-elven Knife-Fighter Thief
Notes:
Ainanta is the counterpoint to Thali. Whereas Thali has knives, she uses them more or less like tools rather than weapons if she has any option whatsoever. Ainanta is more Solid Snake-like. She'll stealth her way in, lure away guards with mysterious noises, then ambush them and throat them with her knives. She's not quite as good a thief numbers-wise as Thali, but she's MUCH more effective as a combatant, particularly when she's paired with the Barbarian in the party who draws attention away from her and allows her to use her "Sneak Attack" from a comfortable flanking position with a minimum of effort. Her skills and feats reflect not so much Thali's defensive attitude as much as Ainanta's willingness to get messy to get the job done.
Model 3: Abel
Concept: Mage-thief charmer/gunman
Notes:
Abel makes up for a lack of levels in rogue by having a freakishly high intelligence and magic. He uses a revolver of his own construction (it's a steampunk setting in HSX and dual-action revolvers are cutting edge high tech). While Abel is capable of sneaking, he usually gets by with disguises and blending in with a crowd until he can pickpocket useful credentials/keys, etc, or get near enough to his objective that he can slip away to use his superior lockpicking, trap detecting, etc skills to get at the goods. In combat, Abel relies on his handgun (which due to a prestige class, the Gun Glyph, is how he casts many of his offensive spells), and range, along with specialized "trick shot" type feats that allow him to manipulate his surroundings to his own advantage better (ricocheting shots, precise aim to take out light sources, creative combinations of spell effects and feat-manipulated ranged attacks). Unlike Thali, who flees, or Ainanta, who gets up close and bloody, Abel is a tactician who uses his superior mobility and the advantage of range and perspective to control events on the field of combat.
As you can see, the three types of character are all very different. They're all rogue-based, with secondary or tertiary classes (Thali is Rogue/Thief-Acrobat, Ainanta is Rogue/Master Thrower/Knife Fighter, Abel is Rogue/Wizard/Gun Glyph) to hone their preferred tactics.
Keep in mind that a ranger/rogue is about as lethal a sniper as you can get, using a bow and the proper skills, or dual wielding and the proper skills to maximize an initial attack from the concealment of the trees. And that rogue is nothing like the diplomat, or the street con-man. Neither of them are like the thug, or the ninja, who are also rogue variant builds.
Rogues are probably the least-pigeonholed class in the game, to be honest.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
I'd say through a variety of elements towards him and let *him* decide how he wants to play the rogue. Traps? sure. Stealthing past a guard? Ok. Fast talking some poor snot into thinking he's the princess of Cormyr? Go for it. He wants to rush into combat with guns blazing? let him. He'll learn soon enough the ins and outs of the class and how he wants to play it.
My rogue for example, had no ranks in pick pocketing, bluffing or fast talking. No diplomacy or intimidation or Info gathering. Heck, didnt even have many ranks in Use Magic Device. He was a thief-acrobat type who's focus was getting in and out of places unseen. Had an insane enough AC to go toe to toe in combat, but chose not to. He acted more like a diversion than anything.
Want to play a Rogue? You can be stealthy and sly, a thug, an assassin, a charmer, diplomat, whatever.
Fighters? Be a knight, a bodyguard, a brainless killer, a weapons master, a homesteader, whatever.
Cleric? Be a noble healer, a religious leader, a cultist, a brainwasher, anything!
The limit should be your imagination, not your crappy DM.
Sac some d6's of damage for Brilliant Energy weapons and you now have a rogue who ignores dex bonus to AC and armor bonus on every attack against living targets for about 13d6 per swing.
It was fucking scary. I'll see if i can get the URL from him.
Anyways, the entire point of mentioning this is to reiterate what people have been saying about rogues not having to be built just for being sneaky. You can build them for obscene damage, ultra defense, diplomacy, stealth, scouting, ect ect ect. It's the same with all the other classes. Once you realise that, for the most part, you don't have to stick with the traditional role of any class to be effective the game mechanics side of D&D gets to be just as much fun as the RP side without delving into munchkinism.
quote:
Dr. Gee wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Heh, my DM made a post on the D&D Online about rogues and how they're broken.
You can't really have a broken class, either for better or worse, if you have a worthwhile DM.
quote:
A sleep deprived Maradon! stammered:
You can't really have a broken class, either for better or worse, if you have a worthwhile DM.
Yeah, remember, you are god. You can fudge numbers and whatnot to make everything be just like you want it. I don't even really use stock entries from like the Monstrous Manual and whatnot for monsters and stuff, I make them up as I go to tailor them to the party. I vary difficulties from fight to fight to find a happy center and use that, stepping it up and down as need be, and focus more on the vocal aspects of it for experience.
However if you are not careful, you can essentially turn your game into a slaughterfest for your party and the fights have no challange and it sucks. I like to think I do a good job because the party wins most fights, they have had some serious close calls, and one has died.
Totally non-standard rogue mindset. No thieving skills, no hide/sneak, no skill with traps, and he fought bare-handed (doing only stun damage so that he wouldn't kill anybody). While I didn't get to play the character due to a small background problem, it worked. And it worked well.
quote:
Fizodeth had this to say about pies:
However if you are not careful, you can essentially turn your game into a slaughterfest for your party and the fights have no challange and it sucks. I like to think I do a good job because the party wins most fights, they have had some serious close calls, and one has died.
I'm a lot more brutal, but I make it memorable. 
Cept Kat is cursed, I swear...
All of our Rogues have been your typical trap trippers, not because I require it, but because that is what they do. However I can't think of a single one who wasn't unique.
Kat played a Blood Hunter once, which is a Rogue variant. She wasn't the stealthy sneaking type, she was brutal and methodical, who just happened to have a few tricks.
Then we have Pawni, who kicked ass, although she did the typical scout and find rogue stuff, she was not very combatant, avoided trouble unless curiosity got the better of her, she was more the sneaking, tricky, while acting entirely innocent type rogue, who, to be perfectly honest, was quite rich before she met her end.
We also had Pierce, who never once searched for a single trap, and never once hid or anything. Yet he was sly, and calm, convincing, and rather, well.. rogue. He was also a hard one to peg.
Along those same lines we have had some very anti-stereotype players as well. Xyrra for instance played a fighter who was more of a rogue in personallity and mentality (The stereotype that is). KaL played one nasty ass messed up Ranger who I think tracked maybe once, but prefered the "I WILL SMASH YOU!" approach to 'survival'. Even our mages have varied. Sean played a Mage once who you could never quite define, and aside from the spell slinging, was more a mystery than a definite. He also played one of the best Rangers ever who was a quiet reserved and brooding one, who relied more on his expertise than the survival aspects of a Ranger. Batty played a Templar, that was not very Templarly, and was reknowned for her ability to make doors instead of bothering to wait for someone to unlock it, and prefered the hands on approach to spreading justice.
Aside from using the abilities available to them... I dont think any of our players have really been a-typical.
quote:
Batty had this to say about Optimus Prime:
That wall felt my wrath. Mightly. Verily. Yes.
And so did the rest of your party when the fireball inevitably collided. Oh yes they did...
quote:
Faelynn LeAndris had this to say about Punky Brewster:
And so did the rest of your party when the fireball inevitably collided. Oh yes they did...
One of my finest moments ever. Doors are meant to be opened!
Really, the "classes" in D&D are pretty much ways to say "You start the game with the chance to get these skills, now go make an interesting character using some of them." Not to say "You have these skills, you're required to use them."
There's a reason that most classes don't have enough skill points to get every single available skill -- you need to pick and choose what you want your character to be. Whether that is through powergaming it and picking the most ideal and optimal skils or by coming up with a character background and going off of that...it's what the system is built for.
I, personally, like playing rangers that don't really use bows. It can also be fun and interesting to play, say, a fighter-based archer.
The system is wide open for a reason. It should stay that way. Tailor your game around the party, don't attempt to tailor your party around your game and what you envision each class as. If the rogue focuses heavily on combat feats and abilities, throw stuff at the party that would allow him to make use of those abilities in an efficient manner. Just because he is a rogue doesn't mean you need to throw traps at him and the rest of the party.
Really, the game is about fun and not about forcing a playstyle on anyone.
Most (traps in) Dungeons don't even make sense. Gawd, I hate Dungeons. And traps.
In my experience, my favorite games where the ones that had little to do with like, dungeon crawling, and more to do with interaction and puzzles and government and whatnot, with battles thrown in so I can be all artful when I describe someone missing four turns in a row. *coughLeopoldcough*
edit: damned grammar Leopold fucked around with this message on 03-22-2005 at 03:40 AM.
quote:He's a new DM. He's a new player. And the group that started him off has been described as fitting the Monty Hall stereotype. Though I agree with most of the people who've replied, I'm not pressing the issue, because as I understand the situation, RM's exposure to roleplay and similar concepts has been minimal at best.
Ninety-nine bottles of Fizodeth on the wall, ninety-nine bottles of Fizodeth...
Frankly, unless you're a new DM I'd steer away from the basic dungeon crawl scenario and just pick up something out of the blue, something that gives him an option to use any select number of his skills.
quote:
`Doc's fortune cookie read:
He's a new DM. He's a new player. And the group that started him off has been described as fitting the Monty Hall stereotype. Though I agree with most of the people who've replied, I'm not pressing the issue, because as I understand the situation, RM's exposure to roleplay and similar concepts has been minimal at best.
Then ignore everything I've said and maybe even look into a module.
quote:
A sleep deprived `Doc stammered:
He's a new DM. He's a new player. And the group that started him off has been described as fitting the Monty Hall stereotype. Though I agree with most of the people who've replied, I'm not pressing the issue, because as I understand the situation, RM's exposure to roleplay and similar concepts has been minimal at best.
*nods* Since people don't pay attention while we're playing, they continue doing what they were doing, or they stop and stare blankly at a wall...or their weapons (I like swords?). So in the case of the one Alarm trap...the cleric wasn't paying attention, and walked right into it, awakening a half-fiend Cleric. >_< I hated her for that.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:And that's typical for his RL D&D group. This is why he needs to sit in on some ECer campaigns, particularly those with a roleplay focus.
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael is attacking the darkness!
so you have newbie players and you're throwing monsters with class levels from the pits of hell at them?
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Cuba:
Your campaign sounds lame if you're trying to pigeonhole your players.
Absolutely.
There's nothing suckier than a DM who tries to force the players to play the "right" way.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Now, with that said, no class should be pigeonholed.
As a new DM myself, after running a campiagn for about... 1/3 a year, and such, I chose a more traditional group (well, the two people wanted to be a massive barbarian and a sorceror), tossing in a healer and giving the bard access to pick lock and disable, just so I can have a few traps.
The first two levels I kinda helped the newer players be more traditional, but now I'm letting them do whatever they want.
So, yeah, sometimes it helps to be more traditional to get new people into the game, but, as said, get them being creative, and give them the option to explore. ;p
I wanted to play a egomanical diplomatic rogue in Za's campaign that mysteriously vanished Lenlalron Flameblaster fucked around with this message on 03-22-2005 at 04:07 PM.
quote:
Lenlalron Flameblaster wrote this stupid crap:
I wanted to play a egomanical diplomatic rogue in Za's campaign that mysteriously vanished
The diplomatic rogue aspect of the egomaniacal diplomatic rogue archetype is overrated.
