).If desired i can go through the errata needed to convert the magic items from the DMG to 3.5, but from what i recall there isn't a huge difference.
quote:
Densetsu wrote this stupid crap:
One would think that the game was already balanced to include it the way it is, since it wasn't revised when 3.5 was released.I mean really, how unbalancing is it to let a rogue have some extra damage dice when spellcasters do practically the same thing? The rogue still needs to hit with an attack roll. A wizard can lob 3d4 dice at an opponent without fail, or send a 6d6 fireball at them only allowing them a save for half damage.
I don't really see it as unbalancing unless your campaign is filled completely with creatures of your own design and they are a bit underpowered.
more like doing 5x 9d6ish damage vs 1 shot of 15d6 (assuming neither party takes feats that alter the damage). That's roughly 3x the damage potential of a wizard throwing a fireball. And please to be keeping in mind that strict rules state that certain spells require a ranged touch attack to hit. There aren't nearly as many "guaranteed hit" arcane spells in 3e as there were in 2e.
So the wizard heaving a high damage spell around may well miss to begin with, not a lot of wizard spells have splash/AOE effects. The Rogue has a better to strike roll and can do greater damage.
Granted a wizard can in theory just disintegrate your punk ass, but if the target makes a save they take damage that's still comparitive pittance to what a rogue can reasonably be expected to dish out.
And like I said, Dens, certain large creatures with poor maneuvering ability (dragons in tight quarters, elephants pretty much whenever, etc) who need more maneuvering room wouldn't automatically rotate position to keep targets off their flank after that first attack.
However, I still don't see why if a party of medium/small size class folks are fighting medium/small (even arguably some large) foes and one of them sinks a vicious blow into X person's back, they wouldn't automatically shift to prevent that.
The only way to counteract that sort of effect for non-barbarians is to start handing out Armor of Fortitude or whatever it is that has a damage reduction on it.
Now I'm not arguing that several rogues all catching the party off guard couldn't do terrible things in that first round of combat. Gee's example of the first attacks stands. But I disagree with the idea that they get an entire round of sneak attacks. I agree they're probably down their Dex bonus to AC, but I'd be hard pressed to say they're stupid enough to stand around and not raise their shields or something.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Also, i'm almost done with that Rogue. He has 58 AC when he cranks it up during battle. Without Combat Expertise. And without any of the Improved/Greater Two Weapon Defense feats that are in supplemental books.
HP: 112 Skills: Tumble23 + 9 + 4 = 36 (Skill mastery. Allows player to Take 10 during combat) Feats: Two weapon fighting Bab: Single Attack (+5 Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shock Short Sword): Full Attack (Not using Defending or Hasted) (+5 Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shock Short Sword / +5 Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shock Short Sword) Full attack Hasted and Pulling +5 Defensive +5 Defending, Flaming, Frost, Shock Short Sword x2 Ring of Force Shield 8,500 gp Ring of Protection +5 50,000 gp Amulet of Natural Armor +5 50,000 gp Bracers of Armor +8 64,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +6 36,000 gp Boots of Speed (for the Haste) 12,000 gp Total money sunk in gear: 544500gp Dr. Gee fucked around with this message on 03-25-2005 at 03:43 PM.code:
Str:10 (+0)
Dex:28 (+9)
Con:14 (+2)
Int:10 (+0)
Wis:8 (-1)
Cha:10 (+0)
AC: 19 (Base with no items)
Passive AC: 39 = 10 + 9 (Dex) + 2 (Ring of Force Shield) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amu Nat Armor) + 8 (Bracers of armor)
Max AC: 58 = 10 + 9 (Dex) + 2 (Ring of Force Shield) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amu Nat Armor) + 8 (Bracers of armor) + 1 (Haste) + 10 (2x Defending) + 2 (2-Wep Defense While Total Defense) + 6 (Total Defense with Tumble)
Jump5 + 0 + 4 =9
Dodge
Evasion [Rogue]
Acrobatic
Uncanny Dodge [Rogue]
Weapon Focus Short Sword
Imp Uncanny Dodge [Rogue]
Imp 2-Wep Fighting
Imp Evasion [Rogue]
2-Wep Defense
Crippling Strike [Rogue]
G. 2-Wep Fighting
Skill Mastery [Rogue]
Combat Reflexes
Opportunist [Rogue]
15/10/5
+30 1d6 + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Frost) + 1d6 (Shock) + 5 (Enhancement) Avg 19 damage
Sneak attack: Avg 54 damage
+28/+23/+18
1d6 + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Frost) + 1d6 (Shock) + 5 (Enhancement) Avg 19 damage per hit
Sneak attack: Avg 54 damage per hit
+28/+23/+18
1d6 + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Frost) + 1d6 (Shock) + 5 (Enhancement) Avg 19 damage per hit
Sneak attack: Avg 54 damage per hit
Total Average (All hit): 114
Total Average Sneak: 324
+24/+24/+19/+15
1d6 + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Frost) + 1d6 (Shock) Average: 14 per
Average Sneak: 49 per
+24/+19/+15
1d6 + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Frost) + 1d6 (Shock) Average: 14 per
Average Sneak: 49 per
Total: 98(Without pulling Defensive 133)
Total Sneak: 343 (Without pulling Defensive 378)
Magic Items:
Left from lvl 20 recomended wealth: 215500
Also note that since he can take a 10 on Tumble and get a 46 he can do a DC 25 to tumble past enemies at full move speed without provoking attacks of opportunity. Adding +2 to the DC per enemy he tumbles past. This means he can tumble past 11 enemies at full speed without provoking an attack of opportunity.
For a long time I believed as you did, Deth, that a full round sneak attack was overpowered and not meant to be, and thus only did sneak attack damage, but this current DM pointed out that sneak attack damage is meant to be delivered for every attack that qualifies. And for his campaign we need it. He houseruled that everything will have max HP: players and monsters alike. And a lot of the time, without sneak attack hitting for the full round from a flank, we probably would have died. Not to mention that he's a filthy undead lover and throws a lot of undead and constructs and plants at us. Which really completely balances it when every other fight is against something immune to sneak attack.
quote:
Dr. Gee had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
SNIP
Greetings,
Just to break that a little more, AC wise at least.
+5 Mithirl Chain Shirt with Heavy Fortification.
+5 Animated Mithirl Large Shield (frees up your off hand yet still gives the AC bonus)
Also...
Add Brilliant Energy to your two short swords, in 3.5 the elemental additions are +gp not +enhancement. Then you can boost your AC some more with Combat Expertise since your melee attacks will be touch attacks against non undead/construct opponents.
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael impressed everyone with:
And like I said, Dens, certain large creatures with poor maneuvering ability (dragons in tight quarters, elephants pretty much whenever, etc) who need more maneuvering room wouldn't automatically rotate position to keep targets off their flank after that first attack.However, I still don't see why if a party of medium/small size class folks are fighting medium/small (even arguably some large) foes and one of them sinks a vicious blow into X person's back, they wouldn't automatically shift to prevent that.
But that's not how it works. There is no positioning in D&D. If there was, then you'd choose your direction at the end of your turn and there would be bonuses to attacking from the sides or back, like in Final Fantasy Tactics.
Instead, you must remember that all combat in a single round of D&D is simultaneous. A character being flanked must divide their attention between multiple angles of attack. So what the rogue does is take advantage each time the enemy must focus on another opponent, allowing him a sneak attack. Basically, everytime the enemy raises his shield or sword to parry someone else's attack, the Rogue takes that oppotunity to strike a vital, now exposed area.
If the enemy simply rotated to face the Rogue after one attack, then anyone else flanking that enemy should be allowed attacks of opportunity, since the enemy is no longer attempting to defend himself against anyone but the Rogue.
The enemy is aware of the Rogue on the first attack as well, and he is attempting to defend himself against the Rogue. It's the fact that during the 6 seconds of simultaneous combat he must attemmpt to defend himself against other opponents as well, thus leaving the chances for a Rogue to strike a vital area. What prevents the Rogue from doing it a second time if the opportunity presents itself??
[Edit: Edited to preserve UBB code.] Densetsu fucked around with this message on 03-25-2005 at 05:10 PM.
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Unless we're talking something huge with excess flank (elephant, dragon, etc) I just can't see every attack being a sneak attack. Losing the dex bonus to AC for the round is okay, I can dig it. There are other abilities that let you take advantage of someone with no dex bonus (any number of PClass stuff, for one thing, but also any number of actual feats) without requiring a Precision Damage attack.
See, that's what I think. I coulda sworn it was in the books though.
(Thanks for the refresher Gee, I know they don't have to be "snuck", I DM too, remember? )
quote:
From the book of Densetsu, chapter 3, verse 16:
But that's not how it works. There is no positioning in D&D. If there was, then you'd choose your direction at the end of your turn and there would be bonuses to attacking from the sides or back, like in Final Fantasy Tactics.Instead, you must remember that all combat in a single round of D&D is simultaneous. A character being flanked must divide their attention between multiple angles of attack. So what the rogue does is take advantage each time the enemy must focus on another opponent, allowing him a sneak attack. Basically, everytime the enemy raises his shield or sword to parry someone else's attack, the Rogue takes that oppotunity to strike a vital, now exposed area.
If the enemy simply rotated to face the Rogue after one attack, then anyone else flanking that enemy should be allowed attacks of opportunity, since the enemy is no longer attempting to defend himself against anyone but the Rogue.
The enemy is aware of the Rogue on the first attack as well, and he is attempting to defend himself against the Rogue. It's the fact that during the 6 seconds of simultaneous combat he must attemmpt to defend himself against other opponents as well, thus leaving the chances for a Rogue to strike a vital area. What prevents the Rogue from doing it a second time if the opportunity presents itself??
[Edit: Edited to preserve UBB code.]
If position doesn't matter than the barbarian "can't be flanked" ability is pointless.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about pies:
If position doesn't matter than the barbarian "can't be flanked" ability is pointless.
That represent's the barbarian's uncanny ability to manage more than one opponent in melee. It's a 6th sense type of dodging.
Explain how it makes any more sense with your way of positioning.
Densetsu fucked around with this message on 03-25-2005 at 08:41 PM.
And by 'positioning' I meant direction you're facing.
quote:
Nobody really understood why Suddar wrote:
Position definitely matters. If the direction you're facing isn't taken into account, flanking isn't possible at all.
Incorrect. All that matters for flanking is where you are positioned around your enemy. You are considered to be defending from all sides that you are being attacked from.
Otherwise, as I said, there would have to be bonuses to being "behind" an enemy, or on an enemy's "sides". You would also need an option to choose which direction you are facing, because it would then be a tactical necessity.
1. Range:
the minimum range for a wizards spells is the close range which is 25+5/2 caster levels) so that makes the minumum range for a wizard is about 30 feet. At the lowest levels most spells are close range and as you level your spells range increases and you start getting spells that have medium and long range distances, to the point wizards are capable of chucking spells from half a mile away that do decent chunks of damage. On the other hand, the poor rogue has to be with in 30 feet to do any kind of sneak attack with a ranged weapon and most of the time he is going to have to be in Melee range.
Consequences:
The Rogue is much more vulnerable to reprisal, the guy he just did a bunch of damage to will turn around focus on him as the major threat. and given his AC is probably lower than that of a tank like a fighter or paladin and doesn't have the damage reduction of a barbarian to soak, and his hp is alot lower than any tank class on average, he can't survive sustained attacks from a challenging encounter. For the Wizard he is not in melee and for the encounter to reach him will involve leaving melee and incurring attacks of opportunity from those he is in combat with, and the Wizard is quite likely to be somewhere that he can't be reached in just a move action.
so the Wizard damage may seem less than the rogues but the Wizard has more tactical options to keep himself safe.
2. Success of hit
A Rogues BAB is on a progression of somewhere between a cleric and a fighter BAB so at lvl 10 say his BaB is about +7/+2 which is close to what a fighter has and and the wizard's BaB at 10 is about +5. These numbers seem fairly close but there are important considerations to take into account.
For the Rogue to do his sneak attack he has to beat the encounter's AC (Im ignoring brilliant energy weapons for this) which isn't as easy for him than a fighter and he is likely to only succeed on the first hit and not the second, if he has two weapon fighting and likely improved two weapon fighting het gets 4 attacks at BaB of +4/+2 and if he just has the dex requirements for those feats rounded to nearest even (18) his total BaB for that round is +8,+8,+4,+4
that means he is likey to get off 2 sneak attacks.
Now the wizard has a much lower Bab BUT he only has to hit Touch AC touch AC ignores armor bonuses, shield bonuses and natural armor bonuses which is most of the AC on corporeal things usually, so he is unlikely to miss most of the time.
3. DR and Elemental resistances, Fast Healing and Regeneration
the Rogue also has to contend with another problem enemies with special defenses that reduce the amount of damage sustained from physical hits reduces sneak attack damage from a weapon. things that can regenerate from anything but specific damage types also reduce his effectiveness. Even if the rogue is packing weapons that do elemental damage or are of the type to over come some DR he is unlikely to have one for every occasion and must batter through.
The Wizard really shines in this situation as he has, if his spell list is well thought out, every elemental damage type at his disposal to use to probe the enemies defenses for weakness. The wizard also has non damage options to remove a threat.
Thats all I can think of for now.
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael
And like I said, Dens, certain large creatures with poor maneuvering ability (dragons in tight quarters, elephants pretty much whenever, etc) who need more maneuvering room wouldn't automatically rotate position to keep targets off their flank after that first attack.
There is no facing in D&D 3.X. You can't choose not to be flanked. Take the example of Al, Bob, and the poor Creature they're fighting.
ACB
In this position, the Creature is flanked. He cannot choose not to be flanked (unless you look to some outright wrong Sage Advice ruling which I won't get into), and he can't choose to ignore one attacker in order to ignore flanking. They recieve a +2 bonus to melee attacks and can make Sneak Attacks so long as this position is maintained. C should 5' step or outright withdrwal (suffering at least 1 attack of opportunity) to get out of this bad situation if one of them is a Rogue.
It has absolutely nothing to do with being behind someone. You arn't on the flanks of the creature, the creature is flanked.
quote:
Tyewa Dawnsister said:
Greetings,Add Brilliant Energy to your two short swords, in 3.5 the elemental additions are +gp not +enhancement. Then you can boost your AC some more with Combat Expertise since your melee attacks will be touch attacks against non undead/construct opponents.
Elemental additions are not +gp, they are +X that count against max enhancement. You're thinking of armor elemental protections.
Brilliant energy ignores armor and shield bonuses. This does *not* include natural armor bonues.
quote:
SRD:
Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.)
quote:
Dr. Gee: average level 20 rogue
Heh, this rogue might look powerful on the outside. 600+ damage! w00t! But... no...
Fist many glaring mistakes in the build, no GTW, "low" Dex, improper use of a Ring of Force Shield, etc. But, it doesn't matter, because all this is fixable for real power-gamers. His AC is pitiful by the way, and when he goes max AC, he isn't actually doing anything so its kind of pointless.
Secondly, it should be obvious that our pitiful rogue isn't doing much of anything. His attack (at best) is +28/+23/+18/+28/+23/+18. He's doing 11d6 slashing damage and 1d6 damage with a bunch of other elements (three: fire, cold, & electricity). This is where we apply the acid test. A CR 20 encounter, the Pit Fiend.
With an AC of 40 he will hit with a 12+ with 2 attacks, a 17+ with 2 attacks, and a natural 20 on the lowest ones. Now lets look at resistances: completely immune to fire, and 10 resistance to cold. Every blue moon the cold damage from the weapon will actually affect him, and fire is right out.
That leaves the 1d6 from electricity. He needs another character to make his weapon good aligned (unless he went UMD) which uses up an entire action that could be for something more useful to get past the DR, and he's rarely hitting even on his 2nd iterative attack. The massive damage comes to somewhere around... well we can't even assume he hits his 1st attack 1/2 the time.
A barbarian, fighter, or ranger will outperform this rogue in combat damage all day long. And that's not even counting the fact that he can't sneak attack elementals, constructs, or undead at all, plus anyone using armor of fortification (% chance unless heavy).
But, then, saying a 20th level rogue is powerful or not is kinda skipping 19 levels of the game, which I believe is the majority.
The simple fact of the matter is that, no, rogues are not overpowered with sneak attacks under the Rules As Written. I have been playing it as such for four years now, and it has never caused problems. Many people have been playing it this way all these years. People think it is because backstab was so limited in 2nd Edition, but Sneak Attack is perfectly balanced for the D&D 3.X game. Playtesting is the only way to really know, so dismissing it offhand is doing a diservice to the rogue. Play it out, and you'll see.
Anyone who enjoys D&D should definitely swing over to the ENWold message boards. They have some very intense and interesting conversations on the rules of D&D as well as forums for interesting encounters, plots, and worls for discussion that greatly benefits any DM or player.
Oh, and Redmage Darkrayver, might I suggest RIFTS for you. It would probably fit your "style" better than D&D. Making them die if they set off an alarm spell is probably not a good way to end a campaign. Rule #1 of DMing: The PCs will never do what you expect them to do and if there is a worst case situation, they will find a worse one.
Good gaming!
EDIT: typos ThirdWizard fucked around with this message on 03-26-2005 at 05:40 PM.
