quote:
Taeldian got bored and wrote this:
0/21/40 is a Shadowbolt spec.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I haven't cast shadowbolt except to kill fire elementals.
The lesson here today: Don't listen to Taeldian.
If you have emberstorm, incinerate is better than shadow bolt.
ESPECIALLY if you spec conflag.
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The vitals:
Incinerate Rank 2
337 Mana
488 - 566 base damage
Additional 122 - 142 damage if target is afflicted by immolate
71.43% +dmg coefficient
Shadowbolt Rank 11
399 Mana
544 - 607 base damage
85.71% +dmg coefficient
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I believe the mana costs in here take the 5% discount talent from destro into account, but that doesn't matter because it applies to both spells equally.
From here it's just a matter of crunching numbers.
Summary:
CHART TIME
The formulae used are as follows:
Shadowbolt net damage:
=((544+607)/2)+(B2*0.8571)
Red is shadowbolt's gross damage, B2 is the absolute value of +dmg from gear.
Incinerate net damage:
=((488+566)/2)+(B2*0.7143)
Once again, red is gross damage, B2 is total +dmg from gear.
Incinerate + Emberstorm:
I just multiplied the incinerate net by 1.1. simple enough.
Incinerate + Immolate + Emberstorm:
=(B4+((122+142)/2))*1.1
B4 is the net damage BEFORE emberstorm. Red is the average immo bonus. 1.1 is the emberstorm bonus.
Note that I am charting out to 2000 total +dmg, which I believe is still unattainable. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 05-08-2007 at 04:17 PM.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by Maradon!:
No.
No? Every comparison I've ever seen has shown shadowbolt being higher DPS than immolate/incinerate/conflag.
Just saw your math.
Did you include Improved Shadowbolt anywhere in that? Taeldian fucked around with this message on 05-08-2007 at 05:10 PM.
quote:
Delphi Aegis had this to say about (_|_):
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaI haven't cast shadowbolt except to kill fire elementals.
The lesson here today: Don't listen to Taeldian.
Maybe I should clarify:
0/21/40 is viable as both a shadowbolt spec and a fire spec. Immediately claiming it's only good for fire is silly.
quote:
x--TaeldianO-('-'Q) :
No? Every comparison I've ever seen has shown shadowbolt being higher DPS than immolate/incinerate/conflag.Just saw your math.
Did you include Improved Shadowbolt anywhere in that?
In a 25 man raid, imp SB is usually consumed before your next SB can land. Someone gets a bonus, yeah, but it probably won't be you. You're about as likely to see a bonus from imp scorch, so I consider imp SB's benefit negated by that.
Imp SB is generally a very lousy talent, even if you spec shadow mastery.
quote:
Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Taeldian who doth quote:
0/21/40 is viable as both a shadowbolt spec and a fire spec. Immediately claiming it's only good for fire is silly.
No, it's not, if you have emberstorm, incinerate is better hands down. Simply saying it's viable isn't going to make 1 > 2
You certainly CAN cast shadowbolt if you have emberstorm - for example, if you don't want to cast immolate for whatever reason - but you just won't be doing as much damage as you could be. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 05-08-2007 at 05:31 PM.
quote:
Maradon!'s fortune cookie read:
In a 25 man raid, imp SB is usually consumed before your next SB can land. Someone gets a bonus, yeah, but it probably won't be you. You're about as likely to see a bonus from imp scorch, so I consider imp SB's benefit negated by that.Imp SB is generally a very lousy talent, even if you spec shadow mastery.
A couple things on this:
If you've got so many shadow casters tossing DDs, Imp Shadowbolt is likely going to be getting put up by the other warlocks as well. Remember, it doesn't get consumed by DoTs anymore (even though DoTs get the 20% bonus), so you have to see four Shadowbolts/Shadowburns/Mind Blasts/Shadow Word: Deaths within 2.5 seconds in order to see 0 bonus from this. If you're seeing this much DD thrown around, you've not only got a shadow weaving up to cancel out the imp scorch bonus (yes, I realize it's getting nerfed), you're also going to have imp shadowbolt up fairly often.
Also,
If other people are taking that 20% bonus over you, that means you're still adding 20% damage to other peoples' DDs, meaning you're benefitting the raid just as much even if it's not showing up on your damage meter while not producing any excess threat. Damage meters don't tell the whole story.
Also,
I don't expect Damnati to be seeing any 25 mans any time soon, meaning he will get the full bonus very often in things like Karazhan.
quote:
Taeldianing:
A couple things on this:If you've got so many shadow casters tossing DDs, Imp Shadowbolt is likely going to be getting put up by the other warlocks as well.
Nobody that I know even takes imp shadowbolt. Of the 2 destro locks in my guild neither chose it out of the 2 starting talents. Only one of our affliction locks has it.
On the other hand, we have a number of fire mages...
I still contend that in an average day you'll see way more scorch bonuses than you will imp sb bonuses. Or shadow weaving, for that matter. On the odd chance that you find yourself surrounded by shadow priests and imp sb warlocks, incinerate will still be easier on your mana, but if you disagree I suppose you finally have a solid reason to switch out those hotkeys and cast shadowbolt.
I have yet to run across this scenario, however.
[edit: I just got done running a heroic underbog with a scorch mage. holy shit. 3k non-crit incinerates, conflag pushing 2k Maradon! fucked around with this message on 05-08-2007 at 07:31 PM.
quote:
Maradon! obviously shouldn't have said:
Nobody that I know even takes imp shadowbolt. Of the 2 destro locks in my guild neither chose it out of the 2 starting talents. Only one of our affliction locks has it.On the other hand, we have a number of fire mages...
I still contend that in an average day you'll see way more scorch bonuses than you will imp sb bonuses. Or shadow weaving, for that matter. On the odd chance that you find yourself surrounded by shadow priests and imp sb warlocks, incinerate will still be easier on your mana, but if you disagree I suppose you finally have a solid reason to switch out those hotkeys and cast shadowbolt.
I have yet to run across this scenario, however.
[edit: I just got done running a heroic underbog with a scorch mage. holy shit. 3k non-crit incinerates, conflag pushing 2k
Improved Shadowbolt is pretty common on my server. The top destruction warlock when I was in Pacifist was a Shadowbolt spammer and got 8k Shadowbolts pretty often. He consistantly did more than our firelock, but every guild's damage meter is going to look different.
We always always always had Shadow Priests in our raids, too.
I should mention that my lock is only level 35, but I've been doing quite a bit of research on specs and the math behind each one in addition to talking to some of the top locks on the server so I can know what I want to do when I get him to 70. I don't pretend to know everything; I'm just spewing what my own research and experiences have shown me. It's good to see an opposing view.
quote:
Peanut butter ass Shaq Taeldian booooze lime pole over bench lick:
Improved Shadowbolt is pretty common on my server. The top destruction warlock when I was in Pacifist was a Shadowbolt spammer and got 8k Shadowbolts pretty often. He consistantly did more than our firelock, but every guild's damage meter is going to look different.
It looks like just as it was before at 60, there are a myriad of ways to arrive at what is more or less the same basic DPS rate. There are several specs that work, but once you find one it's then all about gear.
And really, the difference we are arguing over is minor. Incinerate saves you a little mana, shadowbolt has slightly more base damage. That you can use either without a major hindrance is really just another major strength of destro spec - affliction locks are fucked against shadow immune mobs.
