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There was much rejoicing when Willias said this:
A quick question here. Why go Hemo/Seal Fate if you aren't going to pick up Seal Fate?

Wouldn't this work much better?

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Er i meant to type hemo/ cold blood. oops cake

Also i chose improved eviscerate because thats a hybrid pve/pvp build.

Why would you want endurance over improved kick? Using improved kick you can add 4 seconds to your stun lock, and keeps a mage in your range after a gouge to throw another sinister strike in before eviscerate.

On my server i fight the best of the best, and improved kick is necessary.

Xider fucked around with this message on 07-16-2006 at 04:33 PM.

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A sleep deprived Xider stammered:
Why would you want endurance over improved kick? Using improved kick you can add 4 seconds to your stun lock, and keeps a mage in your range after a gouge to throw another sinister strike in before eviscerate.

On my server i fight the best of the best, and improved kick is necessary.

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Because;

1.) I'm on a PVE server. When I PVP it's for fun, I am not trying to rank up or anything. No point for me to anyway More importantly...
2.) Raiding comes first. Endurance is MUCH more useful than improved kick here. True, I could make an argument to pick 4/5 parry instead, but like I said earlier I find myself using evasion quite more often in Naxxramas (and AQ I guess but we aren't really focusing on that atm).

Honestly I probably shouldn't take improved sprint and even improved gouge, but I do want some of my fun talents!!

Addy fucked around with this message on 07-16-2006 at 05:28 PM.

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Mr. Parcelan thought about the meaning of life:
I sometimes wonder if Master of Deception does anything at all. It never seems to keep anyone else from finding me in WSG.

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It's only a minor improvement, but it is a definate one.

Best reason to pick it up is because of other rogues. If two stealthed rogues bump into each other, the one with MoD will have a huge advantage.

Though, I gotta admit. There were times where I felt like I wasn't stealthed at all when fighting against some people on Dark Iron. It's crazy when people will start chasing you down (while you're in stealth) when they can't even cast spells on you yet.

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Willias impressed everyone with:
Though, I gotta admit. There were times where I felt like I wasn't stealthed at all when fighting against some people on Dark Iron. It's crazy when people will start chasing you down (while you're in stealth) when they can't even cast spells on you yet.

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I was a warrior back when Rogues were the flavor of the month class for five months running. There would always be little weirdos attacking the Crossroads at inopportune times.

It's not that hard to run them down when they're stealthed, really. Just factor in that they're moving slowly and probably stay away from the roads, seeking sanctuary in bushes and on hills and junk.

I have MoD 5 and Whisperwalk boots, and unless someone is right on top of me they usually can't see me. That's PC's and NPC's both.

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Mr. Parcelan was naked while typing this:
I was a warrior back when Rogues were the flavor of the month class for five months running. There would always be little weirdos attacking the Crossroads at inopportune times.

It's not that hard to run them down when they're stealthed, really. Just factor in that they're moving slowly and probably stay away from the roads, seeking sanctuary in bushes and on hills and junk.

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Eh, it happened in Alterac Valley, and the guy (a druid) caught me on the side of a hill.

He ran straight up to me on his kodo and hit me with his staff, then Faerie Fired me. Then I got raped by guards. D:

I had no idea how he managed to spot me, but a rogue I was grouped with said that the druid hacks or something, because he can see straight through stealth.

Wouldn't be suprised if the guy did either, there was some shit going on while I played on Dark Iron that confused the hell out of me as to how it happened.

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Willias was naked while typing this:
Eh, it happened in Alterac Valley, and the guy (a druid) caught me on the side of a hill.

He ran straight up to me on his kodo and hit me with his staff, then Faerie Fired me. Then I got raped by guards. D:

I had no idea how he managed to spot me, but a rogue I was grouped with said that the druid hacks or something, because he can see straight through stealth.

Wouldn't be suprised if the guy did either, there was some shit going on while I played on Dark Iron that confused the hell out of me as to how it happened.

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I never yelled "HAX" more than I did when I was a Rogue.

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Verily, Mr. Parcelan doth proclaim:
I never yelled "HAX" more than I did when I was a Rogue.

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That's because you're a gigantic fucking crybaby pussy who can't take it when he loses.

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Snoota thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
That's because you're a gigantic fucking crybaby pussy who can't take it when he loses.

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I remember when you were relevant.

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We were all impressed when Addy wrote:
Because;

1.) I'm on a PVE server. When I PVP it's for fun, I am not trying to rank up or anything. No point for me to anyway More importantly...
2.) Raiding comes first. Endurance is MUCH more useful than improved kick here. True, I could make an argument to pick 4/5 parry instead, but like I said earlier I find myself using evasion quite more often in Naxxramas (and AQ I guess but we aren't really focusing on that atm).

Honestly I probably shouldn't take improved sprint and even improved gouge, but I do want some of my fun talents!!

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Makes perfect sense to me, ive evasion tanked faerlina on two of our kills and noth as well. Im a pvper through and through though, the only reason im raiding is to keep up with everyone else gear wise . When playing EQ i was on tallon zek even though pvping was terribly unbalanced.

I'm determined to see 60 in at least one MMO before I go to college.

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Check out the big brain on Vorbis!
Hey, where should a solo horde warrior go to level from 30 to 60 quick as shit?

I'm determined to see 60 in at least one MMO before I go to college.

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Roguefeather Den in 1K Needles until 33-34. Shimmering Flats until 36-37, and then STV until what level I don't know because I never leveled there and then after that I don't know because that was about when I started grouping on my Warrior because being a Warrior in an instance is fun. Bonus points for learning skinning and selling all the heavy leather for lots of $$$.

Assuming you're on PvE, of course. PvP those zones are suicide to solo in. :D

Snoota fucked around with this message on 07-17-2006 at 01:36 PM.

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Vorbis was naked while typing this:
Hey, where should a solo horde warrior go to level from 30 to 60 quick as shit?

I'm determined to see 60 in at least one MMO before I go to college.

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Stranglethorn Vale
Desolace
Swamp of Sorrow
Arathi Highlands
Edit: Shit, forgot that 1k Needles was for this level range too.

Those should get you to 40-ish.

Feralas
Stranglethorn Vale
Tanaris
Hinterlands
Searing Gorge

Those should get you to 50-ish.

Western Plaguelands
Felwood
Azshara
Burning Steppes
Un'Goro Crater
Winterspring
Eastern Plaguelands
Silithus
Blasted Lands

And those will get you to 60.

Essentially, look around for the quests in each area, and do em, and you should level up pretty quick without feeling like you're really grinding.

Willias fucked around with this message on 07-17-2006 at 01:49 PM.

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Maradon! impressed everyone with:
Hey guys, what's a good build for leveling up fast solo with a few dashes of PVP thrown in?

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For sword/mace rogues: Start in the combat tree with Imp Gouge, then get Imp Sinister Strike. From there, go Deflection and the Riposte at 20, then Precision and Dual Wield spec. When you can get it, get Blade Flurry, then finish Dual Wield spec. Grab Sword/Mace spec (which ever one you are), and then get Aggression. Once you have Aggression maxed, grab Adren Rush.

Then start in Assassination. Max out Malice, then max out Ruthlessness, and put 2 points in Imp Slice and Dice. Max out Lethality after that, get Relentless Strikes, and then max Imp Slice and Dice.

That's pretty much all you need for a sword/mace rogue, and that is how most people will suggest that you level up. After you get all the talents listed above, I'd pick up Imp Kick and Imp Instant Poison (Weapon Expertise after the patch). Then you should be set for raiding as well.

Your talent trees should look like this.

After the patch, it should look like this.

Most people will suggest going sword/mace until 60, and then either staying that spec, or switching over to daggers.

If you want to level up as a dagger spec, I would (this is the build I used to level up on Dark Iron, and worked very nicely as a pvp build as well):

Again, start in Combat with Improved Gouge, then get Imp Sinister Strike. After that, grab Imp Daggers. You're done in Combat spec.

From there, I, personally, would go to Subtlety. Go Master of Deception, then Opportunity, then Improved Ambush. After Improved Ambush, stick 2 points into Initiative, then 3 into Improved Sap, and then 2 more into Initiative. Then grab Preparation.

Then go to Assassination. Max out Malice, then Ruthlessness and put 2 points into Imp Slice and Dice. Then max out Lethality, and grab Relentless Strikes. Afterwards, stick 4 points into Improved Instant Poison, and then grab Cold Blood.

Then, either go back to Subtlety and finish off Initiative, or max out Improved Instant Poison, or Improved Slice and Dice.

My final spec looked like this.

After the update, it would look like this.

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x--WilliasO-('-'Q) :
If you want to level up as a dagger spec, I would (this is the build I used to level up on Dark Iron, and worked very nicely as a pvp build as well):

Again, start in Combat with Improved Gouge, then get Imp Sinister Strike. After that, grab Imp Daggers. You're done in Combat spec.

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What is IMP DAGGERS?

Maradon! fucked around with this message on 07-17-2006 at 03:38 PM.

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Maradon! was all like:
What is IMP DAGGERS?

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Rogues get to use Imps as weapons, duh.

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Maradon! had this to say about (_|_):
What is IMP DAGGERS?

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Whoops. Improved Backstab.

Willias fucked around with this message on 07-17-2006 at 06:04 PM.

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Willias enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
For sword/mace rogues: Start in the combat tree with Imp Gouge, then get Imp Sinister Strike. From there, go Deflection and the Riposte at 20, then Precision and Dual Wield spec. When you can get it, get Blade Flurry, then finish Dual Wield spec. Grab Sword/Mace spec (which ever one you are), and then get Aggression. Once you have Aggression maxed, grab Adren Rush.

Then start in Assassination. Max out Malice, then max out Ruthlessness, and put 2 points in Imp Slice and Dice. Max out Lethality after that, get Relentless Strikes, and then max Imp Slice and Dice.

That's pretty much all you need for a sword/mace rogue, and that is how most people will suggest that you level up. After you get all the talents listed above, I'd pick up Imp Kick and Imp Instant Poison (Weapon Expertise after the patch). Then you should be set for raiding as well.

Your talent trees should look like this.

After the patch, it should look like this.

Most people will suggest going sword/mace until 60, and then either staying that spec, or switching over to daggers.

If you want to level up as a dagger spec, I would (this is the build I used to level up on Dark Iron, and worked very nicely as a pvp build as well):

Again, start in Combat with Improved Gouge, then get Imp Sinister Strike. After that, grab Imp Daggers. You're done in Combat spec.

From there, I, personally, would go to Subtlety. Go Master of Deception, then Opportunity, then Improved Ambush. After Improved Ambush, stick 2 points into Initiative, then 3 into Improved Sap, and then 2 more into Initiative. Then grab Preparation.

Then go to Assassination. Max out Malice, then Ruthlessness and put 2 points into Imp Slice and Dice. Then max out Lethality, and grab Relentless Strikes. Afterwards, stick 4 points into Improved Instant Poison, and then grab Cold Blood.

Then, either go back to Subtlety and finish off Initiative, or max out Improved Instant Poison, or Improved Slice and Dice.

My final spec looked like this.

After the update, it would look like this.

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Personally, I went Imp Sinister, Malice to max THEN followed the rest of this in general.

Imp Sinister Strike makes you more deadly after 2 levels than anything else in the Trees. Being able to almost instantly generate 3 CP on any target at will is pretty damn powerful. The reason I went Malice second and "wasted" 5 levels is the additional crit added in with the Imp Sinister will make certain things easier to kill (cloth targets especially). If you're a Human with the +5 bonus to Swords you'll be able to easily solo things 3 levels above you, I routinely solo(ed) things 4 and 5 levels up (I'm grinding up another Rogue on another server to hang out with friends). Just keep in mind that you're effectively level+1 for combat if you're a Human Sword or Mace Rogue.

If I can sneak I ambush, gouge, backstab, evic, and it's usually dead.

If I can't sneak I gouge, backstab, maybe SS depending on the mob, then evic and then it's usually dead.

What could I be doing better here?

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Maradon! attempted to be funny by writing:
I'm level 20 now and I almost never use sinister strike for anything. I had imp SS pegged as a crappy talent because of this.

If I can sneak I ambush, gouge, backstab, evic, and it's usually dead.

If I can't sneak I gouge, backstab, maybe SS depending on the mob, then evic and then it's usually dead.

What could I be doing better here?

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This changes a lot later on as mobs' HP starts scaling much higher. Roundabout the early 40's is when most mobs start needing multiple 5-point combos (Either via SnD or just a straightup evisc) to down.

Haven't seen much past that though. heh.

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Maradon! thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
I'm level 20 now and I almost never use sinister strike for anything. I had imp SS pegged as a crappy talent because of this.

If I can sneak I ambush, gouge, backstab, evic, and it's usually dead.

If I can't sneak I gouge, backstab, maybe SS depending on the mob, then evic and then it's usually dead.

What could I be doing better here?

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You're dagger spec, he's talking sword. I disclude mace cus...screw Rogues with Maces.

It seems like losing backstab and ambush is a pretty big deal.

Plus you get Sword Spec. I'll take an extra attack five percent of the time over five percent more crits anyday. A sword specced Rogue with a Krol Blade main hand and Thrash Blade off hand is the most damaging weapon/class/spec melee combination at level 50.

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Maradon! attempted to be funny by writing:
What advantages do sword centric specs have over dagger specs?

It seems like losing backstab and ambush is a pretty big deal.

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no dependancy on positionals
can mindlessly spam ss untill 5 CP
sword spec allows you to get more overall hits in (I have it for leveling and it goes off often enough)

sword rogues are a bit more toe to toe, dagger positional rogues are more situational damage, and mathmatically, the payoff isn't that much, especially in raid situations.

They're also more ideal for stunlock builds, since their white damage is higher (although with Death's Sting and Kingsfall, that could change numberswise assuming you have a hojillion dkp to bid on them).

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The logic train ran off the tracks when CBTao said:
no dependancy on positionals
can mindlessly spam ss untill 5 CP
sword spec allows you to get more overall hits in (I have it for leveling and it goes off often enough)

sword rogues are a bit more toe to toe, dagger positional rogues are more situational damage, and mathmatically, the payoff isn't that much, especially in raid situations.

They're also more ideal for stunlock builds, since their white damage is higher (although with Death's Sting and Kingsfall, that could change numberswise assuming you have a hojillion dkp to bid on them).

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To correct a little here, Sword Spec Rogues actually probably do more damage solo and have a higher survivability but CBTao is just dead wrong on the raid part. Raiding is where Daggers shine above Sword spec, because the mobs will pretty much always allow you to just backstab away.

There's only one sword Rogue I've ever seen even give Dagger Rogues competition on DPS in raids, and my old guild had the top three Rogues on our server together up until about halfway through BWL, where the third of us left for another guild.

Riposte is your god for soloing and PVP, I might add.

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Vallo stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
To correct a little here, Sword Spec Rogues actually probably do more damage solo and have a higher survivability but CBTao is just dead wrong on the raid part. Raiding is where Daggers shine above Sword spec, because the mobs will pretty much always allow you to just backstab away.

There's only one sword Rogue I've ever seen even give Dagger Rogues competition on DPS in raids, and my old guild had the top three Rogues on our server together up until about halfway through BWL, where the third of us left for another guild.

Riposte is your god for soloing and PVP, I might add.

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And yet in our Naxx (Anub-nekthawhore down) guild, allllll the raid rogues are swords combat. Maybe your one sword rogue was the one who knew what he was doing.

Though, with the opportunity changes, a backstab raid rogue is a lot more feasable now.

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We were all impressed when CBTao wrote:
And yet in our Naxx (Anub-nekthawhore down) guild, allllll the raid rogues are swords combat. Maybe your one sword rogue was the one who knew what he was doing.

Though, with the opportunity changes, a backstab raid rogue is a lot more feasable now.

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In my guild, we have about 4 Sword Rogues and 3 Dagger rogues.. Normally the dagger rogues actually win the DMs.

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CBTao probably says this to all the girls:
And yet in our Naxx (Anub-nekthawhore down) guild, allllll the raid rogues are swords combat. Maybe your one sword rogue was the one who knew what he was doing.

Though, with the opportunity changes, a backstab raid rogue is a lot more feasable now.

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Ummm, it's always been that combat daggers have a higher potential damage. There are boss fights that certainly favor sword, though. C'thun, Nef Phase 1, Noth adds, Thaddius for some examples. I'd even say Anub'Rekhan does too. But on boss fights where rogues can pretty much just stand there and do their thing is where you can easily see dagger > sword. Two good Naxx examples are Instructor and Patchwerk. Keep in mind, though, a lot of this stems from the fact that dagger itemization is better than sword.

Example of itemization: a perditions rogue can keep up with a rogue wielding AQR/Maladath (or CTS).

Trash in general most definitely is geared toward swords however.

Btw, I'm a dagger rogue and win the DMs,

Addy fucked around with this message on 07-18-2006 at 08:28 AM.

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CBTaoing:
And yet in our Naxx (Anub-nekthawhore down) guild, allllll the raid rogues are swords combat. Maybe your one sword rogue was the one who knew what he was doing.

Though, with the opportunity changes, a backstab raid rogue is a lot more feasable now.

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I'm pretty sure we have at least one uber dagger rogue. I just can't remember who at the moment.

Possibly Kex.

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Check out the big brain on Addy!
Ummm, it's always been that combat daggers have a higher potential damage. There are boss fights that certainly favor sword, though. C'thun, Nef Phase 1, Noth adds, Thaddius for some examples. I'd even say Anub'Rekhan does too. But on boss fights where rogues can pretty much just stand there and do their thing is where you can easily see dagger > sword. Two good Naxx examples are Instructor and Patchwerk. Keep in mind, though, a lot of this stems from the fact that dagger itemization is better than sword.

Example of itemization: a perditions rogue can keep up with a rogue wielding AQR/Maladath (or CTS).

Trash in general most definitely is geared toward swords however.

Btw, I'm a dagger rogue and win the DMs,

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For my guild in BWL, the Mages and Warlocks gimp out the top, but then again Rogues are power-screwed for Suppression -> Broodlord and then the lovely Elemental Immunity/Weakness crap from Firemaw -> Flamegor.

MC and AQ20/40 we have (well, had.. 2 have quit because of internal guild BS) 3 Sword Rogues at the top, followed by a Dagger and then a Claw Rogue. Cold Blood + Blade Flurry + Imp SnD or Adrenaline Rush + Blade Flurry + Imp SnD is just brutal as hell.

Of course the Dagger Rogue is using Perdition vs Sword Rogues with CTS or Maladath. It's not exactly a "fair" fight.

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This one time, at Addy camp:
Btw, I'm a dagger rogue and win the DMs,

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I want to win the DMs one day I can only ever seem to come in top 5 at most.

Addy makes me sad. She gets to see Naxx AND wins the damage meters

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Falaanla Marring:
I want to win the DMs one day I can only ever seem to come in top 5 at most.

Addy makes me sad. She gets to see Naxx AND wins the damage meters

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Yeah, but your DPS is ranged so you get to do things like snipe at pod racers.

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Maradon!'s unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Yeah, but your DPS is ranged so you get to do things like snipe at pod racers.

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You're saying that Fal is Sand People?

Funny, he looks geek to me.

right click... save image as...

AWESOME GEAR, MAN!!

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Legend has it he carved it himself...

...out of a bigger staff.

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Maradon! fucked around with this message on 07-18-2006 at 04:44 PM.

The nemesis and felheart are the same, to a degree.