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Bloodsage got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Of course! Men should have the option either to require an abortion or to walk away. Nothing else is just, because men deserve the choices.
Care to offer some explanation of why it's ok for a woman to force a man to financially responsible for her decision, a decision she made without his compliance? Care to offer to some reasoning why a woman should be able to take a man's child from him, should he want it, without his say? Honestly, I have no respect for your argument.
You're certainly right, the risks in pregnancy are entirely a woman's. So are the vast majority of preventative measures available to prevent it. A woman either gets pregnant by choice or by a chance so remote that there isn't anything that could be done about it. If it's by choice, then there should be some consideration for the father, who may not have been part of that choice. If it's by chance, there should still be some consideration for the man, who just might want to raise his child (I myself would, as would a number of friends of mine).
To put the choice in the hands of both sexes is equality made legal. They're not saying that men should be given the entire choice, they're saying men should have a hand in it. This does not, by any means, suggest that a man has the right to force a woman to do anything, only that he has the right to say yay or nay. If he says yay, I have no doubt that the law will require him to be responsible for his choice. If he says nay, his conscience will require responsibility. This is already the case for women.
To put the choice solely in the hands of women is difference made legal. The man's desire in the situation is not considered in the least. If the woman says yay, the man can be made responsible regardless of what he wanted or of his knowledge of the decision made. If the woman says nay, the man is either off the hook or has lost his child, both of which may burden him with some guilt due to the inevitable effects on the woman (assuming a conscience is present, which I acknowledge isn't always the case).
In either case, a man must still shoulder the long-term consequences. He may not suffer the immediate physical risks, but the financial and psychological burden, over the long term, is no less compelling. There is no reason at all that anyone should have the right force such consequences on another person without having ever being made to consider that person's desire in the matter.
Edit: To address your notion of "zero responsibility for men", the present law requires zero responsibility for women. As soon as man ejaculates, as Blindy put it, his life and financial future are placed in the woman's hands without any provision for his say.
There's no damned way the court is going to make it easy for a man to just walk away. He'll have to offer some grounds his doing so. All this does it make it harder for women to pigeon-hole men into supporting them. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 03-16-2006 at 03:46 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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This one time, at band camp, Bloodsage said:
What this does is require zero responsibility of men. It places all of the responsibility and all of the conseqences and hard decisions squarely with the woman. All the man has to do is say, "Yeah, I'm not up for having a kid," and then walk away.How equitable.
Just like all the woman has to do is say "Yeah, I'm not up for having a kid," and then have an abortion.
So what, you're saying that decision is hard, but walking away from your unborn child isn't?
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Blindy. stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
But it's at least giving the man a fraction of the control that a woman has for dealing with this situation.
A man can control the situation. All he has to do is not have sex with a particular woman he has no desire dealing with should a pregnancy be the result of them having sex. End-Of-Story.
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Vernaltemptress wrote this stupid crap:
A man can control the situation. All he has to do is not have sex with a particular woman he has no desire dealing with should a pregnancy be the result of them having sex. End-Of-Story.
This also applies to the woman who chose to keep the child. It takes two to tango, why does only one get a choice? When did discretion in choosing mate go out of style for women?
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
You said it yourself: all of the risk and all of the conseqences devolve onto the woman. Thus, she gets to make the choice whether to continue the pregnancy.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bent over the coffee table, Blindy. squealed:
Just like all the woman has to do is say "Yeah, I'm not up for having a kid," and then have an abortion.
So what, you're saying that decision is hard, but walking away from your unborn child isn't?
5-yard penalty for use of emotionally-laden language in a vain attempt to demonize the opposition.
Exactly how is there any agony of choice for a man, here? He has complete immunity from consequences and complete impunity of action. Legality of abortion or not, there are consequences for women who act without regard for consequences.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
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A woman can control the situation. All she has to do is not have sex with a particular man she has no desire dealing with should a pregnancy be the result of them having sex. End-Of-Story.
How is, "Men shouldn't have to accept any consequences whatsoever," the same as equality of choice?
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Bloodsage was listening to Cher while typing:
5-yard penalty for use of emotionally-laden language in a vain attempt to demonize the opposition.Exactly how is there any agony of choice for a man, here? He has complete immunity from consequences and complete impunity of action. Legality of abortion or not, there are consequences for women who act without regard for consequences.
You have a point, there is less agony of choice for a man than a woman when it comes directly to child-bearing. On the other hand, knowing that she cannot compel a man to support her for being stupid would likely make a woman think more about precautionary measures and discretion in who she takes into her bed.
There are two reliable means of contraception that men have to choose from: condoms and abstinence. For women, there are eight: abstinence, female condoms, the pill, the patch, the shot, IUD's, and the ring. Of the two sets of options, those available to women are far more reliable than those available to men. Ortho Evra, the chosen method my girlfriend an I use, is a patch applied 3 weeks out of four and is 99% effective. The shot and the pill are similarly potent.
Women have a vast number of options available to avoid that agony of choice in all but the remotest of possibilities, which neither man nor woman can control unless they're abstinent. Two can choose to have sex but one chooses whether or not to get pregnant. Why should the man, who can only do so much to prevent unwanted pregnancy, be forced to be responsible for the woman's decision? Why should he take on all the long-term consequences while the woman incurs only short-term risk?
Edit: spelling
Edit2: I suppose I should point out that, in my own case, should pregnancy result, it'll be me that enforces responsibility on me to support mother and child rather than the court. I only argue this because I believe the law is unfair and encourages irresponsible and potentially malicious behavior. Kuroi Madoushi fucked around with this message on 03-16-2006 at 04:22 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Bloodsage needs to learn to type:
5-yard penalty for use of emotionally-laden language in a vain attempt to demonize the opposition.Exactly how is there any agony of choice for a man, here? He has complete immunity from consequences and complete impunity of action. Legality of abortion or not, there are consequences for women who act without regard for consequences.
Morality? I'm sure you've heard of it.
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Blindy. Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Morality? I'm sure you've heard of it.
That's not very common these days, unfortunately.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Verily, the chocolate bunny rabits doth run and play while Blindy. gently hums:
Morality? I'm sure you've heard of it.
15-yard personal foul for attempted religious conversion. Sorry, dude, but your particular religious views aren't the only way to look at the situation.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage spewed forth this undeniable truth:
15-yard personal foul for attempted religious conversion. Sorry, dude, but your particular religious views aren't the only way to look at the situation.
Morals != religious views necessarily. There is a set of morals and ethics that most people have outside of religion that would include this sort of thing. Religious folks aren't the only ones with a sense of honor or decency.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Bloodsage had this to say about Knight Rider:
What this does is require zero responsibility of men. It places all of the responsibility and all of the conseqences and hard decisions squarely with the woman. All the man has to do is say, "Yeah, I'm not up for having a kid," and then walk away.How equitable.
As Blindy said and I'll support, in the case of when the woman wants abortion, she's allowed to do this exact same thing. She doesn't want the child, so on the grounds that the man can't force her to have something in her body that she doesn't want, she can abort the baby.
Yet on the flip side, when the father wants no part of it, for whatever reason it happened, he's forced to be financially responsible if SHE makes a choice about HER future.
She's choosing to keep the child, and all the obligations that come with it. She has no right to hold a man to financial responsibility in a decision he is violently opposed to. He has made his decision and she is choosing to ignore it, therefore she is declaring her independence of him by refusing to consider his wishes or attempt compromise.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
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Kuroi Madoushi obviously shouldn't have said:
... For women, there are eight: abstinence, female condoms, the pill, the patch, the shot, IUD's, and the ring. Of the two sets of options, those available to women are far more reliable than those available to men. Ortho Evra, the chosen method my girlfriend an I use, is a patch applied 3 weeks out of four and is 99% effective. The shot and the pill are similarly potent.
....
Umm dude, From my understanding some of those birth controls methods are not all that freindly to chicks. I know 2 of my bud-etes have had some bad reactions to the shot and pill. I think some of them can cause some other funky things.
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Get the soap! Bloodsage just said:
15-yard personal foul for attempted religious conversion. Sorry, dude, but your particular religious views aren't the only way to look at the situation.
I must have missed the memo where it came out that you can't be a moral person unless you're a religious person.
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Peter must think they're pretty smart:
Umm dude, From my understanding some of those birth controls methods are not all that freindly to chicks. I know 2 of my bud-etes have had some bad reactions to the shot and pill. I think some of them can cause some other funky things.
There are many types of pills, ones with steady low hormones, ones with hormones that are low except for the week of ovulation, and ones with high hormones all the time along with many different types of hormones that fit in with this dosage schedule. It is not unusual for a woman to have problems with the first couple of pills she tries until the doctor finds the setup that works best for her system.
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If I had a nickle for every time Vernaltemptress said:
A man can control the situation. All he has to do is not have sex with a particular woman he has no desire dealing with should a pregnancy be the result of them having sex. End-Of-Story.
In a perfect world where no one made mistakes, that might be a concept good enough to base a law around. But in the real world, people make mistakes, and the woman is the only one with the power to deal with it in whatever way pleases her.
If it weren't for the fact that her decision vastly effects the life of the father, I wouldn't have the slightest problem with this concept- but my question, our question, is how is the status quo equitable? Blindy. fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 08:46 AM.
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Verily, the chocolate bunny rabits doth run and play while Lyinar Ka`Bael gently hums:
As Blindy said and I'll support, in the case of when the woman wants abortion, she's allowed to do this exact same thing. She doesn't want the child, so on the grounds that the man can't force her to have something in her body that she doesn't want, she can abort the baby.Yet on the flip side, when the father wants no part of it, for whatever reason it happened, he's forced to be financially responsible if SHE makes a choice about HER future.
She's choosing to keep the child, and all the obligations that come with it. She has no right to hold a man to financial responsibility in a decision he is violently opposed to. He has made his decision and she is choosing to ignore it, therefore she is declaring her independence of him by refusing to consider his wishes or attempt compromise.
So all the man has to do is stick his dick wherever he wants without consequence, and it's then up to the woman to live with the consequences? How very equitable.
Sorry, but once she's pregnant, she should get to choose whether to accept the consequences of an abortion or to carry to term. . .and the other person involved in the conception gets to accept any financial obligations that may accompany that decision.
Jeebus, everyone's acting as if women are getting off scott free right now and only men have to bear any consequences. And that's just stupid.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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I must have missed the memo where it came out that you can't be a moral person unless you're a religious person.
Morality is inextricably tied to religion. And it's awfully egocentric of you to think that your particular idea of morality is the only valid one, and that anyone who thinks differently is immoral. How much more religiously dogmatic can one get?
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Reynar had this to say about Duck Tales:
This brings up another problem; what if she doesn't know who the father is? Do we order genetic testing on every possible subject? Not to mention results on genetic tests don't come quickly to say the least.
I believe that currently, a woman can have a court order a paternity test on a man who the woman thinks may be the father, and the man has to foot the bill for it.
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I bet you never expected Bloodsage to say:
Morality is inextricably tied to religion. And it's awfully egocentric of you to think that your particular idea of morality is the only valid one, and that anyone who thinks differently is immoral. How much more religiously dogmatic can one get?
Yeah, ok, whatever. That's exactly what I was trying to say. 
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Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Blindy. absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
Yeah, ok, whatever. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
I don't have any way to know, nor do I really care, what you were trying to say. I can only respond to what you did say.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage says po-ta-to, I say pa-ta-to:
I don't have any way to know, nor do I really care, what you were trying to say. I can only respond to what you did say.
What Blindy says: "Morality is what prevents men from walking away from their unborn children without remorse."
What Bloodsage apparently hears: "My particular religious views mean that I am superior to everyone else and the only valid source of moral authority."
How in the name of crap would that even have been related to my argument?
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Peter had this to say about (_|_):
Umm dude, From my understanding some of those birth controls methods are not all that freindly to chicks. I know 2 of my bud-etes have had some bad reactions to the shot and pill. I think some of them can cause some other funky things.
As Blindy said, there are many different methods and it may take a few tries to find the right one. My point was that there are a vast number of contraceptive methods available to women that are much more effective than those available to men. I'm aware of the side effects of some of them; my girlfriend schooled me extensively in this.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
quote:
Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Blindy. absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
What Blindy says: "Morality is what prevents men from walking away from their unborn children without remorse."What Bloodsage apparently hears: "My particular religious views mean that I am superior to everyone else and the only valid source of moral authority."
How in the name of crap would that even have been related to my argument?
1. You presume that anyone worth a shit shares your particular stance in terms of "walking away from an unborn child without remorse." Hence, anyone who does other than you would is by definition immoral
2. Your use of the term "unborn child" in the original context also presumes an anti-abortion stance and again labels anyone with a different view as immoral
3. What makes you think it's so tough to walk away if there are no consequences? Are you really so naïve that you think society should or could be regulated by hoping people feel bad if they don't "do the right thing"? 
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Do all of Deanthony's kids belong to his best friend? Can Sharnita prove Alfonso is the father of both her daughters? Is Shawnalee's husband the father of her children? Maury's got the surprising results!
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Vernaltemptress had this to say about Knight Rider:
A man can control the situation. All he has to do is not have sex with a particular woman he has no desire dealing with should a pregnancy be the result of them having sex. End-Of-Story.
Does that mean we're not on for this Saturday anymore?
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Bloodsage says ta-ma-to, I say to-ma-to:
1. You presume that anyone worth a shit shares your particular stance in terms of "walking away from an unborn child without remorse." Hence, anyone who does other than you would is by definition immoral2. Your use of the term "unborn child" in the original context also presumes an anti-abortion stance and again labels anyone with a different view as immoral
3. What makes you think it's so tough to walk away if there are no consequences? Are you really so naïve that you think society should or could be regulated by hoping people feel bad if they don't "do the right thing"?
1) Pretty much.
2) No, but it emulates the vocabulary that would likely be used by a person in the situation of the hypothetical male to which I was refering. But way to read too far into it champ. I think you've been hanging out with the frogs a bit too much.
3) Last time I checked that's what this whole freedom thing was about. Now that our society has reached a point where it is 100% optional for a woman to raise a child if she becomes pregnant, neither partner should have a legal obligation to abide by the other's wishes, because the fact is that she's choosing to raise the child. It's not as if I'm forcing it upon her. She is making that decision of her own free will.
What you are arguing is that
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It places all of the responsibility and all of the conseqences and hard decisions squarely with the woman.
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He has complete immunity from consequences and complete impunity of action.
So would it make you feel better if the man had to pay expenses and damages if there was a botched abortion? If the man had to cover half the expenses of having the child adopted? I'd be OK with that, but I'm not OK with the woman having domination over the future of the man simply because she decided she wanted to raise the child. Blindy. fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 02:40 PM.
Makes perfect sense. Equality = the man gets the choice. Cool.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage's complete misunderstanding of life manifested itself when they said:
So it's okay for the man to have all the choices while the woman bears all the consequences, but it's not okay for him to be required to share the cost of the mishap if there's a pregnancy?Makes perfect sense. Equality = the man gets the choice. Cool.
The mishap is the pregnancy.
The raising of the child is a choice.
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Bloodsage had this to say about Cuba:
So it's okay for the man to have all the choices while the woman bears all the consequences, but it's not okay for him to be required to share the cost of the mishap if there's a pregnancy?Makes perfect sense. Equality = the man gets the choice. Cool.
Now now, I in particular said that during the pregnancy, however it ends (abortion, miscarriage, birth), the man should help. You are correct; the man DID help get the woman pregnant. If the woman chooses to get an abortion, the man should have to help. if the woman chooses to carry the child to term, half the medical bills accrued should be the responsibility of the man to pay. I don't have any problem with that.
My problem is that right now, the man stops having any legal right the minute he completes having sexual intercourse. It's like being given a gun and being put into a dark room. You honestly don't know what's going to happen. You're taking a shot in the dark as to your future for the next 20 years. A woman, on the other hand, can choose abortion, keep the child, and when she keeps the child she can force the man to pay for 20 years. She gets to see the guided missile kaboom-cam view of things.
I don't have a problem with the responsibility of the man to help with the costs of the pregnancy itself. At the end of the pregnancy, however, the man's financial responsibility should end unless he intends to take part in the child's life. The woman has the option of putting the child up for adoption. No one but the woman's own moral/ethical code tells her she has to keep the unwanted child upon it's birth.
AND this law has little to no application in marriages or the like. Those sorts of things fall under the category of marital law/divorce law. There are protections for women, in the law, who have abusive or neglectful husbands.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Seems to me the one who must accept the risk should be the one to have the choice.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage's ass must be crazy:
The point is the situation is one in which, after the pregnancy occurs, there can no longer be anything resembling a joint decision--either one gives all the power of choice to the man, who can simply walk away with no responsibility, as most people here have chosen to argue, or one gives the majority vote to the woman, who is the one who bears all of the consequences of the situation.Seems to me the one who must accept the risk should be the one to have the choice.
The woman can also walk away with no responsibility. She is choosing not to.
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Blindy.'s unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
The woman can also walk away with no responsibility. She is choosing not to.
I believe he's pointing at the health risks inherent in pregnancy/birth and abortion as the responsibility a woman takes on.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Kuroi Madoushi must read alot of poetry:
I believe he's pointing at the health risks inherent in pregnancy/birth and abortion as the responsibility a woman takes on.
Financial liability for which can be shared by the male. Unfortunately that's as close to equal as that particular part of the situation can get given the realities of sexual reproduction.
P.S. LESS THAN TWO HUNDREDTHS OF A PERCENT. Should that dictate the other 99.993% of pregnancies? Blindy. fucked around with this message on 03-17-2006 at 04:01 PM.
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Blindy. had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Financial liabilty for which can be shared by the male. Unfortunately that's as close to equal as that particular part of the situation can get given the realities of sexual reproduction.
I concur, I was just pointing out what I thought his argument to be as yours seemed to leave that part out.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Verily, the chocolate bunny rabits doth run and play while Blindy. gently hums:
The woman can also walk away with no responsibility. She is choosing not to.
No, she can't walk away without consequences. That's the whole point, and why your alleged "solution" is unjust.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage impressed everyone with:
So it's okay for the man to have all the choices while the woman bears all the consequences, but it's not okay for him to be required to share the cost of the mishap if there's a pregnancy?Makes perfect sense. Equality = the man gets the choice. Cool.
The choice for women is in regards to her own body--whether she goes through with the pregnancy or opts for termination, is entirely up to her, and I fully agree with that. The problem arises where the man must accept the responsibility for the choice of the woman, even when in complete disagreement with, or worse, with no influence at all upon that choice, as demonstrated by the previously mentioned saga of the stolen semen.
The health risks surrounding pregnancy are not a matter of social inequality, they are a matter of biological fact, and so can only be effectively corrected by the advance of medicine, rather than civil law.
